ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[ImporterExporter]

FWIW, Abel has 2 top 10s in assists as a LW, including what is probably his best season in assists (3rd in assists in 1941-42 without elite linemates), as well as a Smythe-calibre playoff run in 1943.

Re: Maltsev, I believe he played almost exclusively at C almost in the domestic league, but was RW a little more often than he was C on the international team.

I think Abel is perfectly fine as a LW in the ATD. He had an AS season there, solid offensive numbers overall and a very strong playoff run like you said. The only area where I personally will tweak my outlook when a guy moves of his primary spot is offensive production, so long as the positional adjustment is warranted, which is clearly the case for Abel. If some guy gets put on the W and never played there, obviously more than offense can be impacted.

For me, i drop Abel's 87.3 very slightly given his production there doesn't equal what he did at C being flanked by Howe and Lindsay. Beyond that, you're getting everything else out of him across the board (checking, physicality, leadership, etc, etc).

And honestly, I think Sakic has always been underrated as a playmaker, especially if you look at his consistent finishes in that department and I saw a lot of the back half of his career. He's certainly not Frank Boucher, but in no way should he be thought of as a goal dominant C.

I really like your top line! It checks off all the boxes one needs.

Re: Maltsev. That was my impression as well. Again, can he play RW? Sure. He almost always gets thrown out there in the ATD but when I made my comment upon drafting Martinec, was looking at pure value for the position and I simply don't think you can quite give Maltsev equal footing if we're talking about accomplishments on the wing. Overall, they're closely ranked in an all time sense, though I've got Vlad in front personally for his all around game and ability to produce in big games with a significantly less impressive cast around him.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The Pittsburgh Confluence will get their 2nd pairing started with a player who posted some pretty amazing usage and playoff numbers throughout the 1960's and was, IMO, the backbone of the Montreal D on their 60's dynasty.

With Potvin-Savard up top, he can be sheltered a bit more from the absolute toughest match ups while being able to log heavy minutes in all situations (see below for usage breakdown). It's not often you can get a Dman at this stage capable of playing both special teams units well above average and log easy #3 minutes.

JC Tremblay, D

His usage numbers were off the charts impressive:

Special teams roles - 1960-2017

Regular season PK usage (2nd all time post 1960 for players w/>500 games played)

-6% above league average while logging 2/3 of his team's penalty kill over the course of his career:

Player	GP	SH%	TmSH+	$SHP/82
Jacques Laperriere	691	76%	0.90	2
J.C. Tremblay	796	66%	0.94	1
Marcel Pronovost	636	66%	0.96	1
xxxxxxxx	604	65%	0.88	1
Bobby Orr	657	62%	0.78	6
xxxxxxx	836	60%	1.08	1
xxxxxxx	1071	59%	0.95	1
Serge Savard	1040	58%	0.82	2
Ray Bourque	1612	58%	0.88	2
xxxxxx	854	57%	0.77	1
Chris Chelios	1651	57%	0.85	2
xxxxx	615	57%	1.01	1
Tim Horton	1010	57%	0.92	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Regular season ES usage (tied for 5th all time post 1960, just marginally behind Orr, Horton, Pilote, Laperriere)

Player

GP

$ESP/82

$ESGF/82

$ESGA/82

R-ON

R-OFF

EV%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

J.C. Tremblay

796

25

101

78

1.30

1.30

45%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Again, you can see the impact he had while on the ice w/the even strength goals for vs against splits.


Here is a look at how much Tremblay was used during the playoffs:

Special teams roles - playoff data (1960-2017)

Playoff PP usage:

59.3%

Playoff PK usage:

57.7%

Playoff ES usage:

46.4%

Playoff even strength "R-ON/R-OFF" ratio

J.C. Tremblay

108

1.45

0.99

0.45

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Those are incredibly good splits for an ATD defender. Only Bobby Orr and one other undrafted ATD regular sees greater than +45% in the green.


Here are some quotes from folks like @Sturminator @overpass @TheDevilMadeMe who did a wonderful job highlighting Tremblay's skills on the ice, specifically putting down the notion that he was some sort of liability defensively based on his softer reputation.

From the Top 200 project:

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14

Sturminator said: ↑



Red Fisher said:



Joe Pelletier said:



Fisher, Red. The Gazette. Montreal, Que. [Montreal, Que]17 Oct 2009: D.1.



JC Tremblay's playoff stats are really, really good.

Leading playoff scorers 1965-1969 (Montreal wins 4 Cups in 5 years):

Jean Beliveau 63 points, +11
xxxxxx 42 points, +13 (forward)
JC Tremblay 41 points, +35
Henri Richard 40 points, +7 (with very little PP time)
xxxxxxxx 40 points, +3 (forward)
xxxxxxxx 39 points +5 (forward)

Leading playoff scorers 1965-1969 among defensemen:

JC Tremblay 41 points in 59 games
Pierre Pilote 20 points in 39 games (for Chicago)
xxxxxxx 13 points in 60 games

-Nobody is remotely close to Tremblay in terms of lifting their offensive output in the postseason during this time frame.

TDMM:



@seventieslord highlighted how good his scoring numbers were with a playoff version of VsX: Tremblay joins Denis Potvin to give Three Rivers a pair of absolute money players (overall and offensively speaking) when it comes to postseason hockey.

NHL Playoff VsX, 1918-2016

|	Name	|	VsX5P
1	Denis Potvin	|	442
2	Bobby Orr	|	423
3	Paul Coffey	|	405
4	Nicklas Lidstrom	|	404
5	J.C. Tremblay	|	368
6	Larry Robinson	|	365
7	Al MacInnis	|	360
8	xxxxxxxxx	|	339
9	Chris Chelios	|	329
10	Brad Park	|	328
11	xxxxxxxx	|	323
12	Chris Pronger	|	322
13	xxxxxxxxxx	|	313
14	Ray Bourque	|	308
15	Doug Harvey	|	306
16	Brian Leetch	|	303
17	Pierre Pilote	|	301
18	xxxxxx	|	297
19	Scott Niedermayer	|	296
20	Duncan Keith	|	290

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That said, I wouldn't give Tremblay the title of "the backbone of the 1960's Montreal dynasty". Jacques Laperrière may hold that title, but even youngsters like Savard played a major role in the latter part. The blueline of that dynasty was weird.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Abel is perfectly fine as a LW in the ATD. He had an AS season there, solid offensive numbers overall and a very strong playoff run like you said. The only area where I personally will tweak my outlook when a guy moves of his primary spot is offensive production, so long as the positional adjustment is warranted, which is clearly the case for Abel. If some guy gets put on the W and never played there, obviously more than offense can be impacted.

For me, i drop Abel's 87.3 very slightly given his production there doesn't equal what he did at C being flanked by Howe and Lindsay. Beyond that, you're getting everything else out of him across the board (checking, physicality, leadership, etc, etc).

And honestly, I think Sakic has always been underrated as a playmaker, especially if you look at his consistent finishes in that department and I saw a lot of the back half of his career. He's certainly not Frank Boucher, but in no way should he be thought of as a goal dominant C.

I really like your top line! It checks off all the boxes one needs.

Re: Maltsev. That was my impression as well. Again, can he play RW? Sure. He almost always gets thrown out there in the ATD but when I made my comment upon drafting Martinec, was looking at pure value for the position and I simply don't think you can quite give Maltsev equal footing if we're talking about accomplishments on the wing. Overall, they're closely ranked in an all time sense, though I've got Vlad in front personally for his all around game and ability to produce in big games with a significantly less impressive cast around him.

You probably already are, but keep in mind that Abel lost 3 years to WW2 when doing mental adjustments. IMO, it more or less evens out with the Production Line boost when discussing 7 year VsX, but who knows for sure.

 

[Sturminator]

How much did Maltsev play opposite Kharlamov? (Is that who you are talking about with the LW who handled the puck?) I know they did occasionally.

He only played with Kharlamov in the 72 Canada Cup, I believe. Most of his time was spent on a cobbled-together line with an undrafted LW, who was a scoring star in his own right, but no Kharlamov. We can discuss that line more once he gets drafted.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That said, I wouldn't give Tremblay the title of "the backbone of the 1960's Montreal dynasty". Jacques Laperrière may hold that title, but even youngsters like Savard played a major role in the latter part. The blueline of that dynasty was weird.

Tremblay was the most important dman in the playoffs though right? By a pretty clear margin? Just because of Laperriere's injuries? In the regular season, Laperriere seems to have been their clear #1, at least according to the awards voters.

That whole late 60s dynasty was weird. Believeu, Henri Richard, and a ton of lesser stars, but still, so much less star power than the other dynasties.

 

[ImporterExporter]

That said, I wouldn't give Tremblay the title of "the backbone of the 1960's Montreal dynasty". Jacques Laperrière may hold that title, but even youngsters like Savard played a major role in the latter part. The blueline of that dynasty was weird.

No doubt that Laperriere was the best pure defender, though reading up on Tremblay, from people who were there, watching his contributions, seems like from a total package standpoint he was the guy. He was used in all situations by xxx, heavily, and the numbers bear out that he was very impressive across the board. The transition game was largely him, and his playoff boom in terms of scoring might be the single most impressive aspect of that particular dynasty.

 

[The Macho King]

I wonder how much of our perception of the 60s Habs (and Leafs for that matter) are impacted by the fact that the biggest stars of the decade were on the Blackhawks.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You probably already are, but keep in mind that Abel lost 3 years to WW2 when doing mental adjustments. IMO, it more or less evens out with the Production Line boost when discussing 7 year VsX, but who knows for sure.

This is a very valid point. It's mostly just nitpicking Abel lol. He's such a great piece to use here. No real weaknesses.

Someone has replicated the Production Line before in the ATD right?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is a very valid point. It's mostly just nitpicking Abel lol. He's such a great piece to use here. No real weaknesses.

Someone has replicated the Production Line before in the ATD right?

I replicated the Production Line in a side draft this summer with fewer teams - the ATD redux.

Not sure if the full Production Line has ever been put together in the main draft - drafting both Howe and Lindsay without killing the rest of your team was really difficult back when we were at 24+ teams.

 

[tinyzombies]

Agreed. I know people hate on him given his style of play, but I was just talking with Johnny and he's become the best all around LW in hockey the past 5-6 years now. His record is easily top 200 all time. Elite scoring numbers the past 6 years. Elite PK numbers. Sure, he's a little shit, but he combines the pest activity with being an actual stud better than anyone in the league.

As long as you watch those line changes.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I replicated the Production Line in a side draft this summer with fewer teams - the ATD redux.

Not sure if the full Production Line has ever been put together in the main draft - drafting both Howe and Lindsay without killing the rest of your team was really difficult back when we were at 24+ teams.

10/4.

I could have sworn I saw it somewhere since 2015 but then again I'm probably wrong as it would be almost impossible to land those 2 guys 1-2 in a 24+ team draft without trading way up in the 2nd round. But crazy shit can occasionally work, like taking 99 at 3 and then trading up for Roy in the 20's haha. Not quite W-W though of course.

 

[tinyzombies]

I replicated the Production Line in a side draft this summer with fewer teams - the ATD redux.

Not sure if the full Production Line has ever been put together in the main draft - drafting both Howe and Lindsay without killing the rest of your team was really difficult back when we were at 24+ teams.

That was my fault I picked Cook over Lindsay and let you do it. And I made the inverse mistake here not taking Lindsay to pair with Howe, but managed to pick up Blake.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I replicated the Production Line in a side draft this summer with fewer teams - the ATD redux.

Not sure if the full Production Line has ever been put together in the main draft - drafting both Howe and Lindsay without killing the rest of your team was really difficult back when we were at 24+ teams.

When we did the 40-team draft I was oh-so-close to taking Toe Blake to play with Lach and Richard, but thought better of waiting until pick #150-whatever to take a non-forward and went with Serge Savard. Still went all-Habs with that start.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When we did the 40-team draft I was oh-so-close to taking Toe Blake to play with Lach and Richard, but thought better of waiting until pick #150-whatever to take a non-forward and went with Serge Savard. Still went all-Habs with that start.

I'm pretty sure the Punch Line has been put together before in 28ish team draft

Something like:

1. Richard
2. defenseman
3. Lach
4. Blake

used to be not that hard to do. Blake tends to go higher now than he did back then

 

[Sturminator]

Overall, they're closely ranked in an all time sense, though I've got Vlad in front personally for his all around game and ability to produce in big games with a significantly less impressive cast around him.

As far as big-game record goes...I mean, Maltsev has more international awards than Martinec does, so I don't see an advantage there.

Being "the guy" on your line is a double-edged sword. The smaller the draft, the more likely your scoring stars will have to share the puck with other scoring stars. Some will do this better than others. It's certainly good to be the best scoring forward on your line (which Maltsev was except for the '72 Canada Cup when he played with Kharlamov...which is his worst international performance, so go figure), but not necessarily good to be the only scoring forward on your line.

 

[The Macho King]

As far as big-game record goes...I mean, Maltsev has more international awards than Martinec does, so I don't see an advantage there.

Being "the guy" on your line is a double-edged sword. The smaller the draft, the more likely your scoring stars will have to share the puck with other scoring stars. Some will do this better than others. It's certainly good to be the best scoring forward on your line (which Maltsev was except for the '72 Canada Cup when he played with Kharlamov...which is his worst international performance, so go figure), but not necessarily good to be the only scoring forward on your line.

I mean - USSR versus CSSR.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As far as big-game record goes...I mean, Maltsev has more international awards than Martinec does, so I don't see an advantage there.

Being "the guy" on your line is a double-edged sword. The smaller the draft, the more likely your scoring stars will have to share the puck with other scoring stars. Some will do this better than others. It's certainly good to be the best scoring forward on your line (which Maltsev was except for the '72 Canada Cup when he played with Kharlamov...which is his worst international performance, so go figure), but not necessarily good to be the only scoring forward on your line.

I wonder if there was something about the way CSSR played the Left Wing Lock that hurt Maltsev in particular.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Tremblay was the most important dman in the playoffs though right? By a pretty clear margin? Just because of Laperriere's injuries? In the regular season, Laperriere seems to have been their clear #1, at least according to the awards voters.

That whole late 60s dynasty was weird. Believeu, Henri Richard, and a ton of lesser stars, but still, so much less star power than the other dynasties.

Probably but then again, Serge Savard only came in in the latter part and then won a glorious Conn Smythe. But sure, Tremblay, overall, has the best D playoff resume in the timeframe of that dynasty.

Like you say, Laperrière was the #1D on those teams, but Tremblay was some sort of 1B. I think Tremblay was more reliant on having a fitting partner to cover his weaknesses, but I'm not 100% sure. Who was Tremblay's partner? Ted Harris?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

need a few more votes in the trade thread

 

[Sturminator]

I mean - USSR versus CSSR.

They competed against the same pool of players. Both guys had to beat out Kharlamov and Mikhailov, respectively, for their WEC-A all-star awards, and had to beat the whole field for their best forward awards. Maltsev was pretty much exclusively a 2nd liner on those Soviet teams. I really don't see how playing on a team (but not a line) with Kharlamov and Mikhailov would have helped Maltsev win those awards.

 

[Sturminator]

I wonder if there was something about the way CSSR played the Left Wing Lock that hurt Maltsev in particular.

I wonder that, myself. Hard to say, but the odds of finding some specific description of it are slim to none. Oh well.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I can certainly do it. No biggie. Just let me know when we need to get the 2nd one up and I'll take care of it sir.

Thanks!

Whenever you have a moment we may as well get ready

 

[Professor What]

They competed against the same pool of players. Both guys had to beat out Kharlamov and Mikhailov, respectively, for their WEC-A all-star awards, and had to beat the whole field for their best forward awards. Maltsev was pretty much exclusively a 2nd liner on those Soviet teams. I really don't see how playing on a team (but not a line) with Kharlamov and Mikhailov would have helped Maltsev win those awards.

Could be something similar to Draitsaitl today. The guy's a phenomenal player, but would he get the same number of points if he weren't on a team with McDavid? The threat of McDavid relieves some pressure, imo, hence boosting Draitsaitl. Maltsev could have been aided like that. That being said, I have no gripes with his awards. I think they were well earned.

 

[Theokritos]

the 72 Canada Cup, I believe

the '72 Canada Cup

It's a shame you didn't set up a mock Wikipedia entry "1972 Canada Cup" or else you could have directed people there if they asked "the 1972 what?". My jaw would have dropped.

 

[The Macho King]

The Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs select, with the 141st pick of the 2022 All-Time Draft, select:

Tommy Phillips, LW

A great two-way player, this guy will be the foundation of my second line.