ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[Dreakmur]

Obviously that's relative to the other players available at this stage.

Shore, Orr, Hull and Lemieux seem to have pretty comparable playoff records here. Every other player was part of a dynasty.

 

[VanIslander]

Shore, Orr, Hull and Lemieux seem to have pretty comparable playoff records here. Every other player was part of a dynasty.

I will return to this post twice again.
Now, late Sunday night in South Korea, i'll claim Shore has NO WAY comparable to Lemieux playoff resume.

And that isn't the most egress example.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Shore, Orr, Hull and Lemieux seem to have pretty comparable playoff records here. Every other player was part of a dynasty.

Uh....I feel like that is a minority opinion

 

[Dreakmur]

Uh....I feel like that is a minority opinion

I’m ok with that. It’s up to me to try to make it a majority opinion!

1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd in playoff points among defensemen is where I would start.

 

[VanIslander]

Compare Lemieux and Shore in the playoffs.

One is a total fraud.

 

[VanIslander]

Eddie Shore was in two cup-winning playoff teams: 1 goal, 5 assists in those 17 games. But he sat in the penalty box more than anyone.

 

[ResilientBeast]

1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd in playoff points among defensemen is where I would start.

Given the 3 players (Hull, Lemieux, Orr) were all ranked pretty highly in the HOH playoff project I'd push back pretty strongly.

The aggregate list is lost to migration but

Lemieux - 10
Orr - 13
Hull - 31
Shore - NR

I think Hull is someone you can pick on for his PO resume but Orr and Lemieux I think are definitely in a different class than Shore

 

[Dreakmur]

Eddie Shore was in two cup-winning playoff teams: 1 goal, 5 assists in those 17 games. But he sat in the penalty box more than anyone.

You make it sound like he didn’t lead all defensemen in scoring both those playoffs…

 

[ResilientBeast]

You make it sound like he didn’t lead all defensemen in scoring both those playoffs…

I'll only ride for my own guy but Orr led the playoffs in scoring once, assists twice, and won the Conn Smythe both times

Shore is not comparable

 

[Dreakmur]

Given the 3 players (Hull, Lemieux, Orr) were all ranked pretty highly in the HOH playoff project I'd push back pretty strongly.

The aggregate list is lost to migration but

Lemieux - 10
Orr - 13
Hull - 31
Shore - NR

I think Hull is someone you can pick on for his PO resume but Orr and Lemieux I think are definitely in a different class than Shore

What we’re the criteria for that list? Guys who raised their games most in the playoffs? Did they separate team success from player success?

 

[Dreakmur]

I'll only ride for my own guy but Orr led the playoffs in scoring once, assists twice, and won the Conn Smythe both times

Shore is not comparable

The game was different. Defensemen scored a lot less compared to forwards in Shore’s time. He led all defensemen in scoring both times he won the cup.

 

[ResilientBeast]

What we’re the criteria for that list? Guys who raised their games most in the playoffs? Did they separate team success from player success?

• Players will be judged only on their performance during Stanley Cup playoff games, Stanley Cup challenge games, and playoff games with the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, National Hockey Association, National Hockey League, and Western/Western Canada Hockey League that had a direct path to a champion vs. champion Stanley Cup series

Top-40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

 

[ResilientBeast]

The game was different. Defensemen scored a lot less compared to forwards in Shore’s time. He led all defensemen in scoring both times he won the cup.

1928-29 - 2 points in 5 games - 0.4 pts/game
1938-39 - 4 points in 12 games - 0.25 pts/game

In the regular season those years 0.49 pts/game & 0.4 pts/game

I wouldn't tout 2 points in 5 games as some grand accomplishment

 

[Dreakmur]

Top-40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

Yes, I followed along that whole process. Some guys seemed to get votes because they were great players and they continued that greatness in the playoffs. Some guys seemed to get worse in the playoffs, but they were so good that they were still better than their peers. Other guys seemed to get votes because they had clutch player reputations. It was all over the place.

 

[VanIslander]

You make it sound like he didn’t lead all defensemen in scoring both those playoffs…

Uh,...

He did have 1 goal, 1 assist his team's first cup win, 0 goals, 4 assists his other team's win.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The Top 40 Playoff Project―or any project for that matter―should never be used as an argument in the ATD.

If I did it in the past, then I was wrong.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The Top 40 Playoff Project―or any project for that matter―should never be used as an argument in the ATD.

If I did it in the past, then I was wrong.

When someone is trying to argue that a noted disappointing playoff performer is comparable to Lemieux and Orr it absolutely can lol

 

[Dreakmur]

1928-29 - 2 points in 5 games - 0.4 pts/game
1938-39 - 4 points in 12 games - 0.25 pts/game

In the regular season those years 0.49 pts/game & 0.4 pts/game

Orr’a scoring went down in the playoffs for both his Smythe wins too…

I wouldn't tout 2 points in 5 games as some grand accomplishment

He had the games he had, and he used them to lead defensemen in scoring. That also happened to be good enough for the team lead.

 

[Dreakmur]

Uh,...

He did have 1 goal, 1 assist his team's first cup win, 0 goals, 4 assists his other team's win.

Which were league highs among defensemen….

 

[BenchBrawl]

Personally I suspect Shore was a solid playoff performer, who tended to take bad penalties that may or may not have cost his teams (I think it was overpass who did a study on the impact of his penalties, but I don't remember the results). But how many points he scored is not a good way to judge his performances given his era and position. I'd rather see game reports.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Orr’a scoring went down in the playoffs for both his Smythe wins too…



He had the games he had, and he used them to lead defensemen in scoring. That also happened to be good enough for the team lead.

Sure it went from 1.58 pts/game to only 1.43 in 1970 & 1.54 pts/game to only 1.6

So in 1972 it actually went up lol

And as I pointed out it's not particularly impressive in 1929 and then in 1939 he was tied with a teammate who also played D

 

[BenchBrawl]

When someone is trying to argue that a noted disappointing playoff performer is comparable to Lemieux and Orr it absolutely can lol

No it cannot. It's not an argument.

Especially that specific Project was a total mess throughout. And I share some of that responsibility. I wouldn't trust my own list from that Project. It was too ambitious for the time and effort most had to spend.

 

[ResilientBeast]

No it cannot. It's not an argument.

Especially that specific Project was a total mess throughout. And I share some of that responsibility.

Given the exercise of comparing playoff, performances was already completed, it's absolutely the responsibility of the person trying to argue against that their player deserves more recognition for their performance. He hasn't posted anything remotely convincing the Eddie Shore's playoff legacy is remotely comparable to the performances Orr and Lemieux had during their careers.

So fine if you want to ignore that that project already vetted that Orr and Lemieux were among the strongest performers of all time that's totally fine.

Edit: I will leave Hull out of it, because he definitely can be picked on

 

[ResilientBeast]

Personally I suspect Shore was a solid playoff performer, who tended to take bad penalties that may or may not have cost his teams (I think it was overpass who did a study on the impact of his penalties, but I don't remember the results). But how many points he scored is not a good way to judge his performances given his era and position. I'd rather see game reports.

Sure I don't disagree that he was solid. He's one of the 15 best players of all time. If he was poor he wouldn't be ranked so highly

But trying to sell that his playoff resume is comparable to Orr and Lemieux isn't going to fly

 

[VanIslander]

Which were league highs among defensemen….

Shore was 8th in team playoff scoring both years his team won the cup.

His greatness is from the regular season. Not the playoffs.