Around The League 40: As we barrel towards 40 teams

[AhosDatsyukian]

Except Gardiner LTIRetired, he didn't play again, we didn't gain cap compliance out of convenience... completely different use, timing, and duration. It's definitely not as bad and blatant as Kucherov, but still pretty obvious

He hasn't played again, Murray may not either. Or either or both of them could play again. And I'm not sure how that even matters, in both cases teams were bailed out of a poor contract by the player being injured long term. Whether it's "permanent" long term or 1 year long term, doesn't really make a difference to me.

I get it, it's fun to hate on the Leafs, but there's really nothing too wrong here. Leafs clearly filled out the roster and used the cap space knowing these were the plans with Murray, and it all falls within the rules. The Kucherov situation may have "technically" fallen within the rules but the issue there to me is him not being activated during the regular season when he 100% was ready and able to play -- that to me is the circumvention and the real issue.

 

[Chrispy]

Except Gardiner LTIRetired, he didn't play again, we didn't gain cap compliance out of convenience... completely different use, timing, and duration. It's definitely not as bad and blatant as Kucherov, but still pretty obvious

There was concern Gardiner would try to come back and play before he got the surgery, and whether he would be just healthy enough to play, but not healthy enough to play regularly.

The main difference was Gardiner tried to play in Da Beauty League that summer and realized he couldn’t.

You can argue about the timing with Murray but with dual hip surgery I doubt he could come back to play goalie within a year anyway. So the difference between surgery in July/August and LTIR now or surgery now is minimal.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

On-ice, I'm not a fan of those contracts. The Jets are mid and now look to be mid in the future as well.

However, the NHL is a business. Revenue is the top priority. Not being bad is an understandable goal in that context. You wonder how Dundon would handle a similar situation.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

On-ice, I'm not a fan of those contracts. The Jets are mid and now look to be mid in the future as well.

However, the NHL is a business. Revenue is the top priority. Not being bad is an understandable goal in that context. You wonder how Dundon would handle a similar situation.

To be honest, I like what Dubas is doing in Pittsburgh, where he made one giant move to squeeze every last bit of any possible window, and then is currently looking through the waiver wire to see if he can catch a couple of younger depth pieces as sort of lightning in a bottle.

 

[Chrispy]

On-ice, I'm not a fan of those contracts. The Jets are mid and now look to be mid in the future as well.

However, the NHL is a business. Revenue is the top priority. Not being bad is an understandable goal in that context. You wonder how Dundon would handle a similar situation.

You wonder what Dundon would do.

I wonder where the franchise would be if Francis had taken this appoach.

For instance, we could be just finishing year 7 of contracts signed by both Eric Staal and Cam Ward to start in 2016-17.

Granted, they were both entering their 32 year old season in 2016 and Winnipeg’s guys are both “only” 31 next season, but it gives me a comparison looking back.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

You wonder what Dundon would do.

I wonder where the franchise would be if Francis had taken this appoach.

For instance, we could be just finishing year 7 of contracts signed by both Eric Staal and Cam Ward to start in 2016-17 this season.

Granted, they were both entering their 32 year old season in 2016 and Winnipeg’s guys are both “only” 31 next season, but it gives me a comparison looking back.

This is a sobering and frightening comparison lol.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

You wonder what Dundon would do.

I wonder where the franchise would be if Francis had taken this appoach.

For instance, we could be just finishing year 7 of contracts signed by both Eric Staal and Cam Ward to start in 2016-17 this season.

Granted, they were both entering their 32 year old season in 2016 and Winnipeg’s guys are both “only” 31 next season, but it gives me a comparison looking back.

Admittedly, Carolina was a way worse team at the time than what Winnipeg currently is, and Hellebuyck, in particular, is a far better goalie than Cam Ward was at the time. Winnipeg actually has somewhat of an interesting future to look forward to. Vilardi is a nice young player and so is Perfetti. Winnipeg has also historically drafted very well and have been able to find good depth pieces from within.

 

[Chrispy]

Admittedly, Carolina was a way worse team at the time than what Winnipeg currently is, and Hellebuyck, in particular, is a far better goalie than Cam Ward was at the time. Winnipeg actually has somewhat of an interesting future to look forward to. Vilardi is a nice young player and so is Perfetti. Winnipeg has also historically drafted very well and have been able to find good depth pieces from within.

And I think both franchises understand it's hard to find a 1C and you want to hang onto yours when you find one, warts and all.

But there comes a point when it's time to transition. And I think Winnipeg was there with a better opportunity to leverage those players into a retool than Carolina had.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

And I think both franchises understand it's hard to find a 1C and you want to hang onto yours when you find one, warts and all.

But there comes a point when it's time to transition. And I think Winnipeg was there with a better opportunity to leverage those players into a retool than Carolina had.

Eric wasnt a defensive stalwart or anything but Scheifele is awful. I wouldnt consider scheifele a 1C because you will lose every time you put Scheifele against other top lines.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Eric wasnt a defensive stalwart or anything but Scheifele is awful. I wouldnt consider scheifele a 1C because you will lose every time you put Scheifele against other top lines.

Scheifele is also way stronger offensively than what Staal was at the time. The guy had 42 goals last year. If properly-used, he is a well net-positive on the ice.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Scheifele is also way stronger offensively than what Staal was at the time. The guy had 42 goals last year. If properly-used, he is a well net-positive on the ice.

scheifele hasnt been a net positive in some time.

add in Eric Staal had 40 three times and high thirties once too. I dont defend E Staal much.

 

[HisIceness]

To me it seems the Jets are settling for okay. Personally I think they should have started over, they almost collapsed hard at the end of regular season, but got in the playoffs and proceeded to be the first team eliminated.

But, the front office feels different I guess.

 

[cptjeff]

To me it seems the Jets are settling for okay. Personally I think they should have started over, they almost collapsed hard at the end of regular season, but got in the playoffs and proceeded to be the first team eliminated.

But, the front office feels different I guess.

I mean, to me that's smart. You don't generally get better by tanking, that really only works if there's a Crosby/McDavid level talent, and even then, takes a lot of struggle. Good teams generally get good by being mediocre and then getting free agents and making smart trades. Everyone always advocates the tear down as the 'one little trick other teams don't want you to know about', but it fails and sticks teams in limbo a lot more often than it succeeds.

Keeping the talent you have and adding more relative to the league makes for a better team. If the best you can do is mediocre because you're Winnipeg and you have the smallest regional population and least desirable city in the league, then management needs to fight to stay mediocre.

I don't think this current Jets roster has much hope of a cup, sure, but they have a goalie who absolutely could go on a world beating run and drag them to a final. And don't discount the mere fact of being competitive in the regular season. You sell tickets by playing good hockey even on Tuesday nights.

 

[tarheelhockey]

To me it seems the Jets are settling for okay. Personally I think they should have started over, they almost collapsed hard at the end of regular season, but got in the playoffs and proceeded to be the first team eliminated.

But, the front office feels different I guess.

IMO they got really high on their supply circa 2018, with a team that was good but not some juggernaut. I thought they overachieved similar to how Calgary did a couple of years ago, and ended up in a similar situation where they couldn’t reconcile themselves to their roster just not being quite that good. They could have built back to being a decent team by now, if they hadn’t kept trying to force success out of a group that just didn’t quite have it in them.

I guess it makes sense to keep some leadership and continuity in the room, but personally I’d be looking to guys like Lowry and Morrissey, not so much Schiefele. He should have been trade bait in a rebuild that started 2 years ago.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I mean, to me that's smart. You don't generally get better by tanking, that really only works if there's a Crosby/McDavid level talent, and even then, takes a lot of struggle. Good teams generally get good by being mediocre and then getting free agents and making smart trades. Everyone always advocates the tear down as the 'one little trick other teams don't want you to know about', but it fails and sticks teams in limbo a lot more often than it succeeds.

Keeping the talent you have and adding more relative to the league makes for a better team. If the best you can do is mediocre because you're Winnipeg and you have the smallest regional population and least desirable city in the league, then management needs to fight to stay mediocre.

I don't think this current Jets roster has much hope of a cup, sure, but they have a goalie who absolutely could go on a world beating run and drag them to a final. And don't discount the mere fact of being competitive in the regular season. You sell tickets by playing good hockey even on Tuesday nights.

While I understand your point, getting those number 1 picks is what makes be and stay good. Its very hard to get good without them. You almost have a better chance lining up a generational talent in the draft than signing them or trading for them.

 

[cptjeff]

While I understand your point, getting those number 1 picks is what makes be and stay good. Its very hard to get good without them. You almost have a better chance lining up a generational talent in the draft than signing them or trading for them.

Bah. They should just find elite NHL talent in the 2nd and 4th rounds like us.

But more seriously, it's also very hard to get good *with* those high picks. How many #1s did Edmonton get until they were good? Buffalo still hasn't made the playoffs after high pick after high pick, #1 included. Most #1s don't reshape the team in that way, you still have to build a team around them as they learn and develop. It is hard to change your relative position in the league because every other team is trying to get an advantage over you and it's zero sum.

There are very few places where you can get real positional advantages- one is free agency, because you can get assets for free, and the other is the salary cap, because so many teams play so close to the cap that any cap room can be weaponized in trades (Hi Seth!). The draft distributes talent in a biased way, but every team gets the same number of draft picks, and the advantage of positioning is gone after the early 2nd and the rest of it becomes about scouting- and raw numbers of picks, so you trade for more.

Our front office's plan historically is to simply make lots of attempts to improve the team. Most deals in the NHL will be close to break even, but if we can get a little improvement every deal on average, even if we win and lose some, more attempts means we ultimately improve more than teams that gain similar levels of minor advantage in their moves but make far fewer moves.

And remember, we got to be in the league's elite without ever having a #1 pick.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Bah. They should just find elite NHL talent in the 2nd and 4th rounds like us.

But more seriously, it's also very hard to get good *with* those high picks. How many #1s did Edmonton get until they were good? Buffalo still hasn't made the playoffs after high pick after high pick, #1 included. Most #1s don't reshape the team in that way, you still have to build a team around them as they learn and develop. It is hard to change your relative position in the league because every other team is trying to get an advantage over you and it's zero sum.

There are very few places where you can get real positional advantages- one is free agency, because you can get assets for free, and the other is the salary cap, because so many teams play so close to the cap that any cap room can be weaponized in trades (Hi Seth!). The draft distributes talent in a biased way, but every team gets the same number of draft picks, and the advantage of positioning is gone after the early 2nd and the rest of it becomes about scouting- and raw numbers of picks, so you trade for more.

Our front office's plan historically is to simply make lots of attempts to improve the team. Most deals in the NHL will be close to break even, but if we can get a little improvement every deal on average, even if we win and lose some, more attempts means we ultimately improve more than teams that gain similar levels of minor advantage in their moves but make far fewer moves.

And remember, we got to be in the league's elite without ever having a #1 pick.

If you get lucky and find one after pick 15, then awesome. At the same time, most of teams that are competing or on the up and up have top 2 centers that are high end picks. What are we missing? A 2nd top end center to push us over the edge.

 

[sabremike]

Bah. They should just find elite NHL talent in the 2nd and 4th rounds like us.

But more seriously, it's also very hard to get good *with* those high picks. How many #1s did Edmonton get until they were good? Buffalo still hasn't made the playoffs after high pick after high pick, #1 included. Most #1s don't reshape the team in that way, you still have to build a team around them as they learn and develop. It is hard to change your relative position in the league because every other team is trying to get an advantage over you and it's zero sum.

There are very few places where you can get real positional advantages- one is free agency, because you can get assets for free, and the other is the salary cap, because so many teams play so close to the cap that any cap room can be weaponized in trades (Hi Seth!). The draft distributes talent in a biased way, but every team gets the same number of draft picks, and the advantage of positioning is gone after the early 2nd and the rest of it becomes about scouting- and raw numbers of picks, so you trade for more.

Our front office's plan historically is to simply make lots of attempts to improve the team. Most deals in the NHL will be close to break even, but if we can get a little improvement every deal on average, even if we win and lose some, more attempts means we ultimately improve more than teams that gain similar levels of minor advantage in their moves but make far fewer moves.

And remember, we got to be in the league's elite without ever having a #1 pick.

You can screw up having years of lottery picks by having incompetent coaches, GM's and ownership. The guy we just signed for huge longterm money was being destroyed a few years back by the single worst most destructive coach in hockey history

 

[cptjeff]

You can screw up having years of lottery picks by having incompetent coaches, GM's and ownership. The guy we just signed for huge longterm money was being destroyed a few years back by the single worst most destructive coach in hockey history

Teams in the position to have lottery picks usually have those things to start with. No player or coach in the NHL is ever trying to lose a game. Some GMs do make that the plan, but mostly it's just incompetence. It's far easier to make a mistake and make your team worse and fall behind 20 other teams than it is for a single team to push their way past 20 others.

 

[tarheelhockey]

IMO using Edmonton and Buffalo as the icons for a teardown forces a false dichotomy in the discussion. A team doesn’t have to make itself pathetic in order to rebuild from the ground up.

 

[sabremike]

Teams in the position to have lottery picks usually have those things to start with. No player or coach in the NHL is ever trying to lose a game. Some GMs do make that the plan, but mostly it's just incompetence. It's far easier to make a mistake and make your team worse and fall behind 20 other teams than it is for a single team to push their way past 20 others.

And to bring this thread back to shitting on Pigtown: The Leafs absolutely tanked to get Matthews but somehow to the bootlickers in the Canadian Hawkey Media (and 67% State Media Outfit in particular) that was "being smart" unlike those evil no good tanking Sabres who were HISTORY'S GREATEST MONSTERS!!!

IMO using Edmonton and Buffalo as the icons for a teardown forces a false dichotomy in the discussion. A team doesn’t have to make itself pathetic in order to rebuild from the ground up.

They also don't have to hire Chiarelli, GMTM or Botterill.

 

[Lempo]

Ok, prior to the summer and the chairs running out, I would have bet actual money that Scheifele and Jets won't sign another contract with each other.

 

[bleedgreen]

Ok, prior to the summer and the chairs running out, I would have bet actual money that Scheifele and Jets won't sign another contract with each other.

There’s something definitely “the devil you know” about both sides of that contract. Maybe both the contracts.

 

[DaveG]

Bah. They should just find elite NHL talent in the 2nd and 4th rounds like us.

But more seriously, it's also very hard to get good *with* those high picks. How many #1s did Edmonton get until they were good? Buffalo still hasn't made the playoffs after high pick after high pick, #1 included. Most #1s don't reshape the team in that way, you still have to build a team around them as they learn and develop. It is hard to change your relative position in the league because every other team is trying to get an advantage over you and it's zero sum.

There are very few places where you can get real positional advantages- one is free agency, because you can get assets for free, and the other is the salary cap, because so many teams play so close to the cap that any cap room can be weaponized in trades (Hi Seth!). The draft distributes talent in a biased way, but every team gets the same number of draft picks, and the advantage of positioning is gone after the early 2nd and the rest of it becomes about scouting- and raw numbers of picks, so you trade for more.

Our front office's plan historically is to simply make lots of attempts to improve the team. Most deals in the NHL will be close to break even, but if we can get a little improvement every deal on average, even if we win and lose some, more attempts means we ultimately improve more than teams that gain similar levels of minor advantage in their moves but make far fewer moves.

And remember, we got to be in the league's elite without ever having a #1 pick.

A large part of it is also drafting outside of round 1, more specifically outside of the top 5. That's one area that Edmonton has been f***ing awful at for a LONG time and had them stuck in mediocrity until they landed a generational talent and had another top 5 talent available to them in the top 5.

The reason that Buffalo was stuck for a long time is they kept trying to jump-start their rebuild before it was primed. That Ville Leino signing may have been one of the worst in NHL history. Then by the time they were out from under that, they went and traded for O'Reilly before they had the depth to manage such a move. Basically Pegula was running the team like GM mode on the NHL series rather than letting the guys in his front office do their jobs, and the team inevitably sucked as a result. It's no coincidence that they're finally turning a corner after he gave Adams much more free reign than his prior GMs. Buffalo's issue is that it took him a decade to realize he doesn't know what the f*** he's doing with the Sabres, whereas with the Bills from day one he brought in a very smart front office to run the show and they're now one of the best teams in the NFL.

 

[DaveG]

Ok, prior to the summer and the chairs running out, I would have bet actual money that Scheifele and Jets won't sign another contract with each other.

yeah I figured he was Boston bound after the retirement of PB and Krejci. I have no issue with him or Helle staying in the West though. They don't move the needle at all for Winnipeg who stays as being just another bubble team, whereas they would have helped Boston and New Jersey respectively in a big way.