Armchair GM IV: What do you mean Internal Cap???

[The Zermanator]

Not sure if serious?

Anyways, there's no doubt in my mind he would have gotten 7 years @ +7.5M as a FA.

Is that a joke? Because you can't be serious. What missed opportunity, is there any sign Byfuglien wanted to leave Winnipeg or that Jets were selling him?

Completely serious. Byfuglien has (had) been rumoured to be very available for a long time, along with Ladd and Trouba (to a lesser extent). This isn't coming out of nowhere, he's been one of the most discussed trade targets this entire season here on HF and by the media. I had made some mention months ago that Holland should make a real (as in, not lowball) play for him sooner rather than later before he becomes unavailable whether it was because he was traded elsewhere or re-signed. This is exactly what I feared happening, sitting on hands too long that the window of opportunity closes.

Most people on the Wings board who objected to Byfuglien generally did so because they thought he'd demand 7 or 8 years. Well, he accepted 5. Trading for him and re-signing him for 5 years would have been a great move for this club. Hence, opportunity missed.

 

[Probie]

Completely serious. Byfuglien has (had) been rumoured to be very available for a long time, along with Ladd and Trouba (to a lesser extent). This isn't coming out of nowhere, he's been one of the most discussed trade targets this entire season here on HF and by the media. I had made some mention months ago that Holland should make a real (as in, not lowball) play for him sooner rather than later before he becomes unavailable whether it was because he was traded elsewhere or re-signed. This is exactly what I feared happening, sitting on hands too long that the window of opportunity closes.

Most people on the Wings board who objected to Byfuglien generally did so because they thought he'd demand 7 or 8 years. Well, he accepted 5. Trading for him and re-signing him for 5 years would have been a great move for this club. Hence, opportunity missed.

It is a missed opportunity. I'm displeased, I wish he was here at that price....

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Completely serious. Byfuglien has (had) been rumoured to be very available for a long time, along with Ladd and Trouba (to a lesser extent). This isn't coming out of nowhere, he's been one of the most discussed trade targets this entire season here on HF and by the media. I had made some mention months ago that Holland should make a real (as in, not lowball) play for him sooner rather than later before he becomes unavailable whether it was because he was traded elsewhere or re-signed. This is exactly what I feared happening, sitting on hands too long that the window of opportunity closes.

Most people on the Wings board who objected to Byfuglien generally did so because they thought he'd demand 7 or 8 years. Well, he accepted 5. Trading for him and re-signing him for 5 years would have been a great move for this club. Hence, opportunity missed.

First off it's a known fact that Byfuglien wanted to stay in Winnipeg and he was willing to stay there for 5 years we don't know that if he chose to go the UFA route that he would've signed a 5 year deal still say that if he went the UFA route that it most likely would've been for 6 or 7 years.

 

[Dotter]

Completely serious. Byfuglien has (had) been rumoured to be very available for a long time, along with Ladd and Trouba (to a lesser extent). This isn't coming out of nowhere, he's been one of the most discussed trade targets this entire season here on HF and by the media. I had made some mention months ago that Holland should make a real (as in, not lowball) play for him sooner rather than later before he becomes unavailable whether it was because he was traded elsewhere or re-signed. This is exactly what I feared happening, sitting on hands too long that the window of opportunity closes.

Most people on the Wings board who objected to Byfuglien generally did so because they thought he'd demand 7 or 8 years. Well, he accepted 5. Trading for him and re-signing him for 5 years would have been a great move for this club. Hence, opportunity missed.

You're right, I am sure Jets wouldn't have refused Larkin++ for Buff. Damn you Kenny for not trading Dylan Larkin when you had the chance!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

You're right, I am sure Jets wouldn't have refused Larkin++ for Buff. Damn you Kenny for not trading Dylan Larkin when you had the chance!!!!!!!!!!!

I know man and I agree with what you're saying 100%, that after 6 years of this rebuild on the fly the only players KH has of any interest around the league are larkin and mrazek

I mean come on that's pathetic, no?

 

[Claypool]

Completely serious. Byfuglien has (had) been rumoured to be very available for a long time, along with Ladd and Trouba (to a lesser extent). This isn't coming out of nowhere, he's been one of the most discussed trade targets this entire season here on HF and by the media. I had made some mention months ago that Holland should make a real (as in, not lowball) play for him sooner rather than later before he becomes unavailable whether it was because he was traded elsewhere or re-signed. This is exactly what I feared happening, sitting on hands too long that the window of opportunity closes.

Most people on the Wings board who objected to Byfuglien generally did so because they thought he'd demand 7 or 8 years. Well, he accepted 5. Trading for him and re-signing him for 5 years would have been a great move for this club. Hence, opportunity missed.

He was rumored to being available simply because he wasn't resigned yet. There's no evidence Winnipeg was shopping him around or even fielding calls for him.

 

[Dotter]

You're right, I am sure Jets wouldn't have refused Larkin++ for Buff. Damn you Kenny for not trading Dylan Larkin when you had the chance!!!!!!!!!!!

I know man and I agree with what you're saying 100%, that after 6 years of this rebuild on the fly the only players KH has of any interest around the league are larkin and mrazek

I mean come on that's pathetic, no?

In comparision, Wings are top of the league in drafting and developing. Problem is Wings only have one blue-chip prospect that will return a top #1 defenseman. Even Mrazek won't have that kind of return.

Not too long ago, Flames didn't even want to trade their top 2 guy for both Nyquist AND Tatar.
/
I just don't think DRWs prospects (outside of Larkin) have much return value. Not sure how we can blame Ken Holland for drafting good players that nobody else wants.

Maybe Ken Holland needs to fire some scouts since they have the inability to find those Shea Webers and P.K Subbans, I guess. What has Hakan Andersson done lately?

 

[The Zermanator]

You're right, I am sure Jets wouldn't have refused Larkin++ for Buff. Damn you Kenny for not trading Dylan Larkin when you had the chance!!!!!!!!!!!

The only place in the entire universe where Larkin++ is even mentionable in the same sentence as Byfuglien is between your ears. No idea why you keep insisting on every possible quality trade target that it is impossible without Larkin. That's just ridiculous. Nobody has suggested it, and I think this thread would be more productive if you stopped insisting on it.

He was rumored to being available simply because he wasn't resigned yet. There's no evidence Winnipeg was shopping him around or even fielding calls for him.

That's just simply not true. It has been common knowledge for months now that Winnipeg would not be retaining all 3 of Byfuglien, Ladd, and Trouba. They don't have the money. They've gone back and forth over preference for Ladd or Byfuglien, seems they've made their choice now.

First off it's a known fact that Byfuglien wanted to stay in Winnipeg and he was willing to stay there for 5 years we don't know that if he chose to go the UFA route that he would've signed a 5 year deal still say that if he went the UFA route that it most likely would've been for 6 or 7 years.

I've never really been in favour of a UFA Byfuglien. You're right, the price would shoot up which is exactly why I wouldn't have been nearly as interested. He could have been traded for and signed for 5 years, but not anymore. And very rarely will a player say they don't want to be in the city they're currently in. He's from Minnesota, I don't think Detroit would have a hard time making at least an equal case to Winnipeg for re-signing.

 

[chances14]

Not too long ago, Flames didn't even want to trade their top 2 guy for both Nyquist AND Tatar.
/

you bring this up a lot and yet there was no solid evidence that holland even offered both of them. that was just rumors

 

[Dotter]

The only place in the entire universe where Larkin++ is even mentionable in the same sentence as Byfuglien is between your ears. No idea why you keep insisting on every possible quality trade target that it is impossible without Larkin. That's just ridiculous. Nobody has suggested it, and I think this thread would be more productive if you stopped insisting on it.

You said Holland failed to put together a sure fire deal to get Buff in return. Apparently you have this false sense of thinking that any GM should have the ability to package up redundant run of the mill players for #1 scoring defensemen that hardly ever come on the trade market.

There's this 'ol saying that some of us old timers like to use... it's "you have to give to get". If you want a true #1, be prepared to say "bye-bye" to Dylan Larkin first and foremost.

 

[chances14]

That's just simply not true. It has been common knowledge for months now that Winnipeg would not be retaining all 3 of Byfuglien, Ladd, and Trouba. They don't have the money. They've gone back and forth over preference for Ladd or Byfuglien, seems they've made their choice now.

i have been very critical of holland's lack of moves to improve the defense but blaming him for this is kind of ridiculous imo

we don't know for a fact that buff was actually available. for all we know, the jets could have been telling teams that they were holding off on any offers until they could figure out who they wanted to keep. And just because he signed a 5 year deal with the jets, doesn't mean he would have done the same with another team. it actually appears he took a hometown discount to stay with the jets

 

[Dotter]

you bring this up a lot and yet there was no solid evidence that holland even offered both of them. that was just rumors

The thread was created by an HFboard moderator on the main trade forum with rumor and source backing it up. I am not so sure mods (or anyone) is permitted to use bogus sources from untrusted media outlets.

Threads that are created with bogus sources are immediately deleted around here. That thread is still available and the moderator hasn't been banned. So I assume the source is legit.

But yeah, I'm sure every trade talks between GMs are "rumors" around here since GMs don't get on the media and do a press releases about failed trades that fell through. Guess it depends on if you trust the source. In this case, I trust the source about this rumor. Especially considering the thread was started by a moderator.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

you bring this up a lot and yet there was no solid evidence that holland even offered both of them. that was just rumors

Again I don't believe they ever offered both together. It does kind of ignore the fact Sheahan, Jurco and a 2nd which all parties confirmed was offered was the best deal the Flames were offered in that process. He could not stop Feaster from being stupid.

 

[chances14]

Again I don't believe they ever offered both together. It does kind of ignore the fact Sheahan, Jurco and a 2nd which all parties confirmed was offered was the best deal the Flames were offered in that process. He could not stop Feaster from being stupid.

i don't believe it either. that just does not sound anything at all like something holland would have done.

and yup flames should have taken the other deal because they ended up getting peanuts in the end

 

[chances14]

The thread was created by an HFboard moderator on the main trade forum with rumor and source backing it up. I am not so sure mods (or anyone) is permitted to use bogus sources from untrusted media outlets.

Threads that are created with bogus sources are immediately deleted around here. That thread is still available and the moderator hasn't been banned. So I assume the source is legit.

But yeah, I'm sure every trade talks between GMs are "rumors" around here since GMs don't get on the media and do a press releases about failed trades that fell through. Guess it depends on if you trust the source. In this case, I trust the source about this rumor. Especially considering the thread was started by a moderator.

i assume you are refering to this thread.http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1647885

if you go the last page and post #229. pretty much sums up nobody knows what was really offered

 

[Dotter]

i assume you are refering to this thread.http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1647885

if you go the last page and post #229. pretty much sums up nobody knows what was really offered

I read post #229. Sounds like the confusion is where did Mckenzie hear it from? We'll never know...

But I think Ken Holland had done everything imaginable to try and make a trade and nobody wants our scraps. Okay maybe they are not "scrap" players, but players that just aren't that desirable or appealing to other teams for their top defensemen.

I don't think Nyquist and/or Tatar have that big of return value. They are good complementary pieces, but nothing really special.

 

[ap3x]

we don't know for a fact that buff was actually available. for all we know, the jets could have been telling teams that they were holding off on any offers until they could figure out who they wanted to keep. And just because he signed a 5 year deal with the jets, doesn't mean he would have done the same with another team. it actually appears he took a hometown discount to stay with the jets

Did you even read my linked sources?

 

[Winger98]

With the Winipeg situation, I thought I saw Enstrom's name come across my twitter feed earlier, maybe from Duthie? Also, I think it was Khan who had Winipeg among three teams who could be interested in Howard this summer. I wonder if something could be worked around Enstrom and Howard.

i assume you are refering to this thread.http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1647885

if you go the last page and post #229. pretty much sums up nobody knows what was really offered

Can't find the audio file for it anywhere now, but I remember hearing that interview and McKenzie was led by the interviewer. To me, it sounded like McKenzie just didn't want to get into it and debate something a year old. Regardless, I think either rumored Detroit deal was the best deal Calgary had on the table.

 

[The Zermanator]

You said Holland failed to put together a sure fire deal to get Buff in return. Apparently you have this false sense of thinking that any GM should have the ability to package up redundant run of the mill players for #1 scoring defensemen that hardly ever come on the trade market.

There's this 'ol saying that some of us old timers like to use... it's "you have to give to get". If you want a true #1, be prepared to say "bye-bye" to Dylan Larkin first and foremost.

I said it was a missed opportunity, not that he failed to offer a "sure fire deal", you're putting words in my mouth (or at my fingertips).

And who's redundant, or "run of the mill"? Seems I remember proposing something around Tatar (though I would have preferred Nyquist at this point). Not exactly redundant.

And this is all a moot point anyway. Byfuglien is off the table, end of story. We've desperately needed a top pair dman for many seasons now, if only to lighten the load on Kronwall. We need one now more than ever. Another possibility has come and gone. You can crow all you want about prices being too high (but again, your stubbornness about Larkin's necessary inclusion is silly and baseless). But the fact of the matter is, this is a major hole in the lineup and has been for years. It's Holland's job to address that, he hasn't done it.

If you're putting all your eggs in the draft basket, be prepared for the very real risk of wasting the primes of Larkin, Mrazek, DeKeyser, Nyquist, Tatar, and Co. while waiting for your drafted #1. If we don't draft him within the next 5 years (and don't know why anyone would count on that given the Wings' track record for D), then Larkin will be in his 30s by the time this player is ready to make an NHL impact. The Ekblads who come in and make an impact at 18 are even rarer than the Larkins who make an impact at 19. It will likely take at least 4-5 years from the draft before the player is an impact #1D. Again, assuming we ever even draft this unicorn. The time to address the D is now. There are plenty of *valuable* packages that can be put together to acquire a decent top pair player (who, relatively speaking, would be a #1 on Detroit). The window on Byfuglien has now closed, shame because he would have been a breath of fresh air and a serious boost.

Holland's "prices were too high", "so and so injured player is our deadline acquisition", and revolving door of past-their-prime vets act is getting very stale and old at this point. The guy needs to stop making excuses and figure out a way to meaningfully address this defense. You know, because that's his job and he's paid millions to do it. Accountability has to come into play at some point.

 

[Dotter]

I said it was a missed opportunity, not that he failed to offer a "sure fire deal", you're putting words in my mouth (or at my fingertips).

And who's redundant, or "run of the mill"? Seems I remember proposing something around Tatar (though I would have preferred Nyquist at this point). Not exactly redundant.

yeah I'm sure GMs across the world are lining up for our small euros... Heck, Flames didn't even want them for a mediocre top 2 guy.

And this is all a moot point anyway. Byfuglien is off the table, end of story.

He was never on the table, apparently. You just keep repeating it over-and-over again like Jets wanted to trade him to Detroit for Nyquist + scraps, which I doubt that was ever the case... like-at-all.

It's been reported all over the internet that Jets' primary goal was to re-sign Buff. He was their #1 obligation to get re-signed. I posted about this like a million times, I am surprised this is coming off as a surprise to you.

Another possibility has come and gone. You can crow all you want about prices being too high (but again, your stubbornness about Larkin's necessary inclusion is silly and baseless). But the fact of the matter is, this is a major hole in the lineup and has been for years. It's Holland's job to address that, he hasn't done it.

Again Buff wasn't even a possibility. They wanted to re-sign him. He re-signed. How else are you going to pry Buff away from the jets unless you want to throw together a stupid package with Larkin as the centerpiece? Jets might not have even considered that for all we know...

Bottom line, Buff wasn't available.

If you're putting all your eggs in the draft basket, be prepared for the very real risk of wasting the primes of Larkin, Mrazek, DeKeyser, Nyquist, Tatar, and Co. while waiting for your drafted #1. If we don't draft him within the next 5 years (and don't know why anyone would count on that given the Wings' track record for D), then Larkin will be in his 30s by the time this player is ready to make an NHL impact. The Ekblads who come in and make an impact at 18 are even rarer than the Larkins who make an impact at 19. It will likely take at least 4-5 years from the draft before the player is an impact #1D. Again, assuming we ever even draft this unicorn. The time to address the D is now. There are plenty of *valuable* packages that can be put together to acquire a decent top pair player (who, relatively speaking, would be a #1 on Detroit). The window on Byfuglien has now closed, shame because he would have been a breath of fresh air and a serious boost.

Who said draft is the only way. How did Ken Holland land Dekeyser? How did Ken Holland Land Mike Green? You got to think outside the box, my friend. Ken Holland obviously is... and he kept Dylan Larkin in the process! (Wings fans wanted to trade the draft pick that we used on Larkin, don't you remember that?) Had Wings fans had their way, Wings would be skating a mediocre top 2 while Larkin is flourishing someplace else right now. Boy, sure glad Ken Holland doesn't trade his top 1st rounders away!

Bolded: again the window of Buff was never opened.

Holland's "prices were too high", "so and so injured player is our deadline acquisition", and revolving door of past-their-prime vets act is getting very stale and old at this point. The guy needs to stop making excuses and figure out a way to meaningfully address this defense. You know, because that's his job and he's paid millions to do it. Accountability has to come into play at some point.

Ken Holland is getting paid millions by ownership to do the job they ask of him. I think ownerships #1 goal above winning the Stanley Cup is ensuring the playoff streak stays alive. At the end of the day, Detroit Red Wings is a business and the goal is to stay relevant, not tank for picks (or trade away the Dylan Larkin's of the world) for an aging Buff.

I'm sure Mike Illitch and son will be thrilled to bolster the consecutive playoff streak opening night at the new arena. I am 100% sure of that. Ken Holland is doing a great job keeping the streak alive, which I am sure Mike and son asked him to do above everything else... even above keeping you, one individual fan, happy.

 

[The Zermanator]

Who said draft is the only way. How did Ken Holland land Dekeyser? How did Ken Holland Land Mike Green? You got to think outside the box, my friend. Ken Holland obviously is... and he kept Dylan Larkin in the process! (Wings fans wanted to trade the draft pick that we used on Larkin, don't you remember that?) Had Wings fans had their way, Wings would be skating a mediocre top 2 while Larkin is flourishing someplace else right now. Boy, sure glad Ken Holland doesn't trade his top 1st rounders away!

Bolded: again the window of Buff was never opened.

From Winnipeg media: http://www.winnipegsun.com/2015/11/30/byfuglien-on-trading-block

A report that the Winnipeg Jets have offered all-star defenceman Dustin Byfuglien to the New York Islanders for defenceman Travis Hamonic really should come as no surprise to anyone.
...
But you can’t ignore the fact that if the report is true, it means the Jets are certainly willing to ship Byfuglien out this season for the right price.

Like seriously, this has been one of, if not the top story this season. I could dig up many more reports like this but is the effort really even worth it? You seem pretty set in your opinions.

You understand you're making the argument that a GM of an internal cap team doesn't pick up the phone if someone calls about an upcoming UFA up for a big payday? Byfuglien has been very available for a while (but not anymore). And this is a team that already has Myers and Trouba on the right side.

As for your other paragraph. He got a well past his prime Mike Green who is ideally a #3 at most at this point, and DeKeyser who, while very good, is not and will likely never be even as good as Kronwall (so, not even an average #1). Where's this #1 then? I would refer once again to my post about wasting Larkin and Co's primes. Perhaps it's you who needs to think outside of the box. You do realize that trades do happen, right? And a team's surefire star prospect is not always involved?

But whatever, you'll reply with Byfuglien was never available and Larkin will be necessary to acquire anybody. Frankly, I'd get more results banging my head against a wall so agree to disagree.

 

[Dotter]

No, I'll reply with a different source from TSN that obviously was correct and whatever you were reading admitted in the article that it was "*a report * possibly * if reports are correct*" Travis Hamonic...



Assuming that article you posted (I've never seen it) is reliable... and maybe it was reliable from like last year LOL, it is clear Jets were honing in on a 25 year old stud defenseman for an aging 30 year old UFA. Of course Garth Snow said F-NO! with ease. It is also clear they WERE NOT, in fact, looking to add forwards. This conclusion is based off using your source.

Wings NEED top defenseman, they don't have any to trade. If they did have top young stud defensemen to trade, i guess they wouldn't be trading now would they? Lol We just found ourselves caught in a paradox haven't we?

 

[The Zermanator]

No, I'll reply with a different source from TSN that obviously was correct and whatever you were reading admitted in the article that it was "*a report * possibly * if reports are correct*" Travis Hamonic...



(Your tweet confirms that they were leaning towards Ladd at one point, thus Byfuglien would have been available. Because if they can only afford to sign one, then the other will either be traded or potentially lost for nothing in FA. Being unlikely to need Buff for a playoff run, he would very likely have been available when Winnipeg was pivoting towards Ladd. Thanks for confirming!)

Assuming that article you posted (I've never seen it) (Well you've seen it now. And I've seen many, many others like it. You know, because I live in Winnipeg...And Byfuglien's very possible departure has been a major Jets news item since last off-season... and where's there's a TON of smoke, there's probably at least a small fire... but right, he's never been available...) is reliable... and maybe it was reliable from like last year LOL (not even 3 months ago but sure, last year, like Dec 31 is a year before Jan 1 if you want to play semantics) , it is clear Jets were honing in on a 25 year old stud defenseman for an aging 30 year old UFA. Of course Garth Snow said F-NO! with ease. It is also clear they WERE NOT, in fact, looking to add forwards. This conclusion is based off using your source. (Nowhere in that source does it make any mention of Winnipeg being unwilling to take forwards... first I've ever heard of that. And Hamonic was targeted because he made his desire to play in Winnipeg public and he's locked down long term at a great cap hit. I wouldn't trade him for Buff either. But Buff was available then, for something around Hamonic's value and possibly less. Like maybe Tatar/Nyquist, at most with a small plus?)

Wings NEED top defenseman, they don't have any to trade. If they did have top young stud defensemen to trade, i guess they wouldn't be trading now would they? Lol We just found ourselves caught in a paradox haven't we?(Not a paradox, just a strawman.)

Bolded

EDIT: Fun fact, I actually went to school with Hamonic in the same grade. He'd left for a few years early in high school for hockey but came back in senior year to graduate. Really nice guy, was on the same bus too.

Same school as Jonathan Toews too actually. (It's because we're all french-speaking, not that many schools). He's 2-3 years older but I was in his brother David's grade. Though both eventually left to play in Minnesota or North Dakota for high school, I believe. David was drafted by the Islanders, who later traded his rights to Chicago, I believe. I don't think he's playing anymore though. Funny thing is, I remember a lot of talk growing up (and both had NHL aspirations even then) that David was the more individually talented one. Obviously a few years later scouts would say differently but this was the talk at the time.

 

[Dotter]

Bolded

Not a paradox, just a strawman

It's hardly a strawman when what I've been saying for the past few months inevitably came true. /shrugs

 

[The Zermanator]

It's hardly a strawman when what I've been saying for the past few months inevitably came true. /shrugs

Wings NEED top defenseman, they don't have any to trade. If they did have top young stud defensemen to trade, i guess they wouldn't be trading now would they?

So you've established that the Wings need a top defenseman. That they don't have one to trade. But that if they did indeed have one, then they wouldn't even need to trade since they had one. Great work, Columbo.

Seriously man, your argument is like a pirate who's lost his peg. It's just going in circles, mate.

But I'm not a rapper.