Speculation: Armchair GM and Rumors Thread XX

[Calculon]

Why the Flames should try to trade Wideman (if at all possible) or even buy him out (if Murray Edwards has been sniffing ether rags):

-Because other they'll lose a significantly cheaper, maybe longer term option in Nakladal to free agency
-Because clearing cap space would let them acquire both a goalie and a top six forward
-Clear a roster spot for young defencemen like Kulak, Andersson or Wotherspoon to at least compete for a spot
-Not going into next season with almost the exact same roster that failed miserably

He might fetch better assets at the deadline but there's no guarantee he's even healthy enough to be traded at that point. Or that he'd have a good enough season to guarantee teams would even be interested in a horribly slow, one-dimensional bottom pairing defencemen that might still draw the ire of the refs at a very inopportune moment.

With a new coach, Wideman isn't going to automatically get premium powerplay time alongside Gaudreau and Monahan and that's going to significantly affect his point totals. That's Hamilton's spot now. Better to move him now (again, if at all possible) than deal with a horribly overpaid bottom pairing defencemen for most of the season for a chance at a slightly better return.

 

[Volica]

Wideman is very much addition by subtraction at this point of this for this team.

 

[Anglesmith]

Bringing up the new coach does bring another factor into play, though. We don't really know how Wideman will look under the new system of the new coach. He could have better usage, have a system that fits his strengths better, and may be a very effective player. Or not, who knows? I don't think it would be right to sell him for a bad return. Not until we see him in action at least in TC.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

All good points guys, which is why I don't think he's very desirable trade target for other teams right now, especially given the cap estimates for next season. To further complicate matters, the team that wants him must also be a team that he wants to play for, which shortens the potential list of suitors.

Addition by subtraction only makes sense if the Flames don't have to give up an asset to get rid of him, then it's just subtraction. In that case, might as well just have him in the pressbox taking notes.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

my thought was they get wideman to help ofset the loss of Barrie. Holden, is more of what we need in a stay at home D man with size and is physical and we free up cap space to sign / trade for better goalie and top 6 RW.

Except Holden sucks, and we already have a better version of him in Engelland.

I'd rather hang onto Wideman and try to move him for anything at the deadline if we are out of it. He had an awful season, no way to sugar coat that, but if we run into injury issues it's better to have him around than not. I'm not sure we can repeat last season where we stayed afloat without Gio to end the season.

He might even bounce back a bit under a new coach, who knows.

Plus I honestly think that at worst we'll be able to pickup a veteran 2nd/3rd line tweener for cheap with the cap staying stagnant. A PAP or Brad Boyes sorta thing like last off season. Is it ideal? No, but for now it works okay short term.

My ideal offseason preference list still is:

#1 goalie
Top Six/Top Nine Veteran forward with offense
A PK/Faceoff specialist for the bottom six (assuming we have a roster spot anyways, see how the Jooris/Raymond etc situations play out)
#4/5 defenseman to pair with Hamilton, but that we don't mind exposing (like a Hamhuis) on a two or three year deal.

I still think the first two are possible without moving Wideman, especially if we buyout/bury Raymond and Smid.

If we can pickup Hamhuis in free agency because Vancouver doesn't re-sign him and he wants to stay close to home, I'm okay with moving Wideman for a lesser cap dump or future considerations.

Long term I think we likely have to realize that this off season isn't going to likely be the one with sweeping changes where we start to gear up for playoff runs. That will likely be next offseason with so much cap space coming up, roster spots opening up and one more year of development on guys like Shinkurak, Jankowski, Poirier, Bennett, Gilles, Kylington, Anderssen, whoever we get at 6th, etc.

If we can just be patient for one more season, I feel like we can replace a lot of the filler on this roster (Engelland, Smid, Raymond, Jooris, Bollig, etc) interally and have the cap space to really bolster our roster's holes with free agents or trades.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I hope everything is earned, never given. Bob just handed junk vets roster spots. We need young guys playing if they deserve to (Grant, Kulak, Wotherspoon, Shinkaruk).

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I hope everything is earned, never given. Bob just handed junk vets roster spots. We need young guys playing if they deserve to (Grant, Kulak, Wotherspoon, Shinkaruk).

Agree to an extent on Grant and Wotherspoon. Kulak earned his spot and then lost it. Shinkaruk got his chance and kept it imo. He's still gotta earn it coming into camp, but he's proven he's a contender for a spot.

I'm not sure Grant is ever going to be more than a 13th forward/AHL forward.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I want to dump Wideman and trade something for Brendan Smith.

 

[Demetric]

Except Holden sucks, and we already have a better version of him in Engelland.

I disagree with this statement.

Holden was playing top 4 min last season averaging 21 min per game. was only a -1 which was best of their top 4 d. had a .27 p/g vs Engelland's .17. He was top 3 in shorthanded ice time for defense. England was 4th behind Russell. Holden also blows Engelland away in hits per game at 2.6 vs 1.5. Even though Holden played a tonne more min only had 4 more giveaway (26 vs 22) and had 21 takeaways compared to 8 for Engelland. He may not be a possession driver but he is not an anchor like Engelland where the players playing with him see a hit in their possession where Holden doe snot make them better but does not make them worse either. Holden is also 5 year younger and making over a million less that Engelland (not that matters)

Holden is not a star, probably not suited for top 4 either but is way better than Engelland.

with the Wideman for Holden this is what out defense could look like

Gio / Brodie
Jokipakka / Hamilton
Holden / Nakladal
Engelland

 

[Calculon]

Grant lost his spot early in the season because of contract status even though he was outplaying Stajan. One more game and he'd have to go through waivers to be sent down. Then his jaw broke preventing him from getting a call up around the deadline even though he was far and away the best forward on the Heat. I don't think he comes back anyway unless the Flames offer a one way deal but 4th line centre/AHL journeyman seems like an accurate projection for him.

Kulak was also due largely due to management; with at least 7 players ahead of him all on one way deals making 5x or more what he was, and no injuries/trades until later in the year, hard to justify keeping him in the pressbox vs. key minutes in Stockton.

But Hartley definitely disliked Wotherspoon. And his allegiance to Wideman and Russell despite their difficulties was highly irritating.

On the topic of expansion, it might actually be better to leave Kulak down for another season even though he's ready for a bottom pairing role. Too much exposure and he might get claimed. Seems like Wotherspoon (if he's not lost to waivers), Jokipakka and Kulak are the top three choices to get drafted at the moment (unless the Las Vegas Rambling Gamblers really like Bouma or Stajan for some reason or one of Ferland/Shinkaruk/Colborne are exposed).

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I disagree with this statement.

Holden was playing top 4 min last season averaging 21 min per game. was only a -1 which was best of their top 4 d. had a .27 p/g vs Engelland's .17. He was top 3 in shorthanded ice time for defense. England was 4th behind Russell. Holden also blows Engelland away in hits per game at 2.6 vs 1.5. Even though Holden played a tonne more min only had 4 more giveaway (26 vs 22) and had 21 takeaways compared to 8 for Engelland. He may not be a possession driver but he is not an anchor like Engelland where the players playing with him see a hit in their possession where Holden doe snot make them better but does not make them worse either. Holden is also 5 year younger and making over a million less that Engelland (not that matters)

Holden is not a star, probably not suited for top 4 either but is way better than Engelland.

with the Wideman for Holden this is what out defense could look like

Gio / Brodie
Jokipakka / Hamilton
Holden / Nakladal
Engelland

I'll be the first to admit I didn't see much of Holden this past season as years before, as my roommate who was the diehard Avs fan moved out. He may have had a good year this year, but he's still not someone I particularly want on the Flames either.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Grant lost his spot early in the season because of contract status even though he was outplaying Stajan. One more game and he'd have to go through waivers to be sent down. Then his jaw broke preventing him from getting a call up around the deadline even though he was far and away the best forward on the Heat. I don't think he comes back anyway unless the Flames offer a one way deal but 4th line centre/AHL journeyman seems like an accurate projection for him.

Kulak was also due largely due to management; with at least 7 players ahead of him all on one way deals making 5x or more what he was, and no injuries/trades until later in the year, hard to justify keeping him in the pressbox vs. key minutes in Stockton.

But Hartley definitely disliked Wotherspoon. And his allegiance to Wideman and Russell despite their difficulties was highly irritating.

On the topic of expansion, it might actually be better to leave Kulak down for another season even though he's ready for a bottom pairing role. Too much exposure and he might get claimed. Seems like Wotherspoon (if he's not lost to waivers), Jokipakka and Kulak are the top three choices to get drafted at the moment (unless the Las Vegas Rambling Gamblers really like Bouma or Stajan for some reason or one of Ferland/Shinkaruk/Colborne are exposed).

I still think Kulak is better served with top minutes in the minors mostly because at this point I'm not sure he brings anything new/different to the bottom pairing that we don't already have in Wotherspoon/Nak (assuming he's brought back).

The exposure thing I think might be a tad overblown short of him having a really really good season.

Just based purely on easy math numbers as it's not this complicated, but assuming 30 teams protect 3 defensemen, and Vegas takes 6-8 defensemen. You gotta assume that there are some better defensemen out there than Kulak in the 90-100 of the best NHL defensemen. Short of a Parakyo style rookie season anyways.

 

[Calculon]

I still think Kulak is better served with top minutes in the minors mostly because at this point I'm not sure he brings anything new/different to the bottom pairing that we don't already have in Wotherspoon/Nak (assuming he's brought back).

The exposure thing I think might be a tad overblown short of him having a really really good season.

Just based purely on easy math numbers as it's not this complicated, but assuming 30 teams protect 3 defensemen, and Vegas takes 6-8 defensemen. You gotta assume that there are some better defensemen out there than Kulak in the 90-100 of the best NHL defensemen. Short of a Parakyo style rookie season anyways.

They have to take 30 players, so say I'd guess they go with roughly 10 defencemen, 16 forwards and 4 goalies. And prospects will definitely be a part of that as they be can used as either trade bait or for establishing of an AHL team/call ups for inevitable injuries.

The quality of forwards exposed is going to be a lot lower than the quality of defencemen and goalies. Would be smarter to load up on the latter, and then attempt trades to bolster the forward group.

 

[Fig]

I'm really out of my element for value... but what if we looked to NYR?

Idea wise, I'm trying to see if there's a way to nab Kreider and Hayes. You have to give to get.

Something like...

Kreider + Hayes + Glass

Ferland + Hathaway + Bollig + 2nd (Fla)


Idea wise, NYR semi downgrades players rumored to be on the way out/dog house and gains cap + a pick.

Flames upgrade players, take on a little extra cap to fill 2LW and 2RW.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I'm really out of my element for value... but what if we looked to NYR?

Idea wise, I'm trying to see if there's a way to nab Kreider and Hayes. You have to give to get.

Something like...

Kreider + Hayes + Glass

Ferland + Hathaway + Bollig + 2nd (Fla)


Idea wise, NYR semi downgrades players rumored to be on the way out/dog house and gains cap + a pick.

Flames upgrade players, take on a little extra cap to fill 2LW and 2RW.

We gotta send way more their way.

Kreider is what we hope Ferland becomes.

Hayes had an off season after a great rookie season, while Hathaway is a potential 4th liner.

Glass and Bollig both suck and are overpaid.

The gap between Kreider/Ferland and Hayes/Hathaway is more than a late 2nd.

 

[slappipappi]

I'm really out of my element for value... but what if we looked to NYR?

Idea wise, I'm trying to see if there's a way to nab Kreider and Hayes. You have to give to get.

Something like...

Kreider + Hayes + Glass

Ferland + Hathaway + Bollig + 2nd (Fla)


Idea wise, NYR semi downgrades players rumored to be on the way out/dog house and gains cap + a pick.

Flames upgrade players, take on a little extra cap to fill 2LW and 2RW.

The Rangers trade by far the best two players and get a middling return.

You indicate that "you have to give to get", yet have only really given a 2nd round pick.

If the Rangers trade Kreider, it will be for a similar decent piece.

Greider by himself would be worth a first round pick easily. Hathaway is virtually worthless, Bollig has negative value, Ferland has some value, but not much, and the Panthers 2nd has some good value.

You wouldn't get either Krieder or Hayes for that package.

 

[moon*]

While Kreider and Hayes may be in the doghouse and/or on their way out they still are going to take something of value to get.

Flames fans love Ferland because of his bacl story and a few games against Vancouver but other teams aren't going to be swayed by that and are going to go off of his on ice production and play and that quite frankly is very underwhelming.

Hathaway brought a lot of energy last year but he is a dime a dozen guy that likely doesn't make 29 or 30 of the NHL teams and likely isn't an upgrade over what the Rangers already have in their system.

 

[Johnny GODreau]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/n...-troubles-regrets-not-listening-to-hitchcock/

Fily wants an AHL deal next season.

 

[Fig]

The Rangers trade by far the best two players and get a middling return.

You indicate that "you have to give to get", yet have only really given a 2nd round pick.

If the Rangers trade Kreider, it will be for a similar decent piece.

Greider by himself would be worth a first round pick easily. Hathaway is virtually worthless, Bollig has negative value, Ferland has some value, but not much, and the Panthers 2nd has some good value.

You wouldn't get either Krieder or Hayes for that package.

That's why I was saying I was out of my element for value and asked here. I wasn't sure what the value for salary and what Hayes/Kreider's value were.

So in summary, to balance it, would adding the other two 2nds make it a reasonable basis? Or is the value still off?

 

[Calgareee]

That's why I was saying I was out of my element for value and asked here. I wasn't sure what the value for salary and what Hayes/Kreider's value were.

So in summary, to balance it, would adding the other two 2nds make it a reasonable basis? Or is the value still off?

It really becomes a quantity for quality issue then. They would definitely want one of Kylington/Andersson/Jankowski coming back

 

[RedHot]

I'm really out of my element for value... but what if we looked to NYR?

Idea wise, I'm trying to see if there's a way to nab Kreider and Hayes. You have to give to get.

Something like...

Kreider + Hayes + Glass

Ferland + Hathaway + Bollig + 2nd (Fla)


Idea wise, NYR semi downgrades players rumored to be on the way out/dog house and gains cap + a pick.

Flames upgrade players, take on a little extra cap to fill 2LW and 2RW.

Oh God that's bad for NY

 

[moon*]

That's why I was saying I was out of my element for value and asked here. I wasn't sure what the value for salary and what Hayes/Kreider's value were.

So in summary, to balance it, would adding the other two 2nds make it a reasonable basis? Or is the value still off?

I think that is getting into too much quantity and the real solution is to add quality (if that makes sense).

I am also terrible at making up proposals but I think switching out Hathaway and Bollig with Poirier and maybe even Shinkaruk is really what would be needed and in reality getting both is probably unlikely.

So I will make two (likely terrible) separate proposals:

Kreider for Poirier, Ferland and 35

Kreider is younger, bigger and better offensively than Backlund. He also was playing 1st line LW for them, although that certainly doesn;t make him a 1st line guy. But I don't think they are trading him for a low return. Ferland and Poirier give them some young depth that will be cheap and potentially play in their top 6 down the road. I used the 35th to try not to be a homer but ideally you can use the FLA or Dallas pick.

Hayes for Wotherspoon and FLA 2nd

Seems like an overpay but I find Hayes a tough guy to judge since he seems to have a lot more potential than he has shown but is getting that age where he kind of is what he is. I likely try to switch Wotherspoon for a Kulak or Seiloff (if the Rangers are idiots).

Like I said I am terrible at this but I do think it will take some pieces that we aren't excited to give up to get Kreider especially.

 

[Volica]

On the other page there was some Grant talk. I liked him on the 4th line more than Stajan last year. Better on the dot, more physical and much more of a corner warrior.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/n...-troubles-regrets-not-listening-to-hitchcock/

Fily wants an AHL deal next season.

I could see a few organizations taking a chance.

Not convinced Calgary should be one of them.

 

[Calculon]

Wouldn't mind taking the chance on Filatov, especially if it's just an AHL deal. What's worst that could happen? On the other hand, the reward could be a scoring top-9 winger.

Anyway confirmation (re-confirmation?) that the Flames wanted Murray:

On how a lot of teams called Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Jim Rutherford at the trade deadline asking about the services of Matt Murray, and on how thankful he thinks Rutherford is that he didn’t trade Murray, if the GM even entertained it at all:

“Well, I think he’s very thankful, and he didn’t entertain it. It even goes back before then. I think Toronto asked about Matt Murray in the Kessel deal. Obviously Kyle Dubas had a tie-in with Murray and knew him really well. I think they asked, and I think Pittsburgh said no back then.

“Definitely other teams asked around the deadline. Calgary for sure did, and Rutherford was steadfast about it. He told me at the time he wasn’t going to do it.

Furthermore:

But the second thing is, if you keep Fleury – and I believe he has a combination no-move clause, no-trade clause – I think that means you have to protect him. We don’t 100 percent know yet, so that could make the decision for you.

Absolutely mind bottling how anyone still thinks Fleury is a good idea, especially since it's looking like he'll need expansion draft protection. If he was the primary target in any way, then might as well re-hire Sutter, trade Gillies and a 2nd for a 31 year old goalie coming off some serious injuries, and then it'll really be just like the good old days.