Speculation: Armchair GM 2023-24 Season. If we can't say "Rebuild" what do we call it?

[Lunatik]

If we don’t finish bottom 10 next year we will get Floridas pick.

The difference between you, Krohx and a few other posters is you want to finish in 9th or 10th in the west while we want to finish bottom 5 for a few years. 9th or 10th in the west is still bad.

No, we want the Flames to finish 1st but have accepted we are going to suck. Just because we have accepted that doesn't mean we aret to stop cheering for the team.

 

[Fig]

No, we want the Flames to finish 1st but have accepted we are going to suck. Just because we have accepted that doesn't mean we aret to stop cheering for the team.

By first, do you mean draft 1OA or winning the Stanley cup?

 

[Lunatik]

By first, do you mean draft 1OA or winning the Stanley cup?

Win the Cup

 

[Backlund]

Nobody wants this team to be mediocre forever. Some people just realize there is more than one way to build a contender, and unless we are absolutely forced to don’t want to go the rebuild route when the average one takes roughly 8-9 years between playoff appearances nowadays (seriously, 1/3 of the league over the last 15 years have went through a rebuild this length or greater), and is absolutely no guarantee of success once you’ve suffered almost a decade.

The people who don’t want a rebuild also agree with management on this, considering they’ve been adamant this isn’t a rebuild and have already mentioned wanting to add in free agency this year. Which is why it seems so pointless that the people who are trying to ponder what some of the best moves for additions via trade or free agency may be are constantly being hit with “no I want us to suck” messages.

Which contender do you see that was not built through the draft? I constantly see people trying to make this point but provide absolutely no examples of great teams that have not drafted high. It is true that not every team that rebuilds becomes a Stanley Cup champion but there isn't a Cup champion without a top 3 pick on their roster.

People are advocating for a quick retool because they are short sighted and can't stomach losing for a couple of seasons in order to accumulate the talent required to win. All that does is lead to the same type of mediocre teams we've seen struggle to do anything once they make the playoffs. This team is already terrible, might as well try to build one properly from the ground up.

 

[Volica]

Which contender do you see that was not built through the draft? I constantly see people trying to make this point but provide absolutely no examples of great teams that have not drafted high. It is true that not every team that rebuilds becomes a Stanley Cup champion but there isn't a Cup champion without a top 3 pick on their roster.

People are advocating for a quick retool because they are short sighted and can't stomach losing for a couple of seasons in order to accumulate the talent required to win. All that does is lead to the same type of mediocre teams we've seen struggle to do anything once they make the playoffs. This team is already terrible, might as well try to build one properly from the ground up.

People will always point to those one-offs that made it deep without multiple top picks or Vegas as teams that didn’t go through the draft.

The reality this team needs 2 impact forwards, including a #1 franchise centre, and probably another big dog on the backend. That’ll take a few years to acquire with some luck at someone developing out of the first round of a draft.

Things are only going to get worse in the interim for this team. They need a lotto win or something incredibly positive.

 

[Mobiandi]

Top 5 is within sight. Wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world

 

[Yepthatsme]

Which contender do you see that was not built through the draft? I constantly see people trying to make this point but provide absolutely no examples of great teams that have not drafted high. It is true that not every team that rebuilds becomes a Stanley Cup champion but there isn't a Cup champion without a top 3 pick on their roster.

People are advocating for a quick retool because they are short sighted and can't stomach losing for a couple of seasons in order to accumulate the talent required to win. All that does is lead to the same type of mediocre teams we've seen struggle to do anything once they make the playoffs. This team is already terrible, might as well try to build one properly from the ground up.

I assume you mean built through high picks. In that case, Boston does not have a single player they drafted top 10 on their roster. Dallas has 1. New York Rangers have 2, and I would love to hear someone try to say Kaako and Lafreniere are why they are at the top of the standings. Nashville Predators have 0, and they’re the hottest team in the league coming into the playoffs. Tampa Bay has 2 that were drafted in 2008 and 2009, and are currently being carried hard by their non 1st round picks. So let me know if 3 of the top 4 teams in the NHL isn’t enough and I can do a deeper dive.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I assume you mean built through high picks. In that case, Boston does not have a single player they drafted top 10 on their roster. Dallas has 1. New York Rangers have 2, and I would love to hear someone try to say Kaako and Lafreniere are why they are at the top of the standings. Nashville Predators have 0, and they’re the hottest team in the league coming into the playoffs. Tampa Bay has 2 that were drafted in 2008 and 2009, and are currently being carried hard by their non 1st round picks. So let me know if 3 of the top 4 teams in the NHL isn’t enough and I can do a deeper dive.

A) you’re living in hypotheticals. Not in reality. You definitely can build a team with lower picks. But where are these players? Are you seeing them, cause I don’t. You use Vancouver, Tampa, Dallas, Boston as examples. Where is our Robertson, Hintz, Heidkanen, Kucherov, Hedman, Petterson, Miller, Hughes, Pastrnak, McCavoy, etc.? NYR got Panarin and Fox in ways that we never will

This team is devoid of elite talent. It’s painfully obvious. They are in the part of the cycle where they can play some young players and get a few top picks to speed up the rebuild. Why slap some lipstick on a pig in the form of Chandler Stevenson? Instead be intellectually honest and realize this team needs to stockpile talent for a few years.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Be a pretty boring message board if we only talk about what Flames management wants to do…

You want to be average, the masses want long-term sustainable success. You’re not building a contender through FA with what’s already here. You’re just not. I don’t know what to tell you if you think it’s possible.

…as opposed to only talking about what the guys who want to quit on our current team want to do?

I’ll go bold here actually. It’s impossible to build a contender through drafting alone. It gets done by teams making making smart trades and free agency moves to improve on a core that’s established, whether that’s through drafting or one that’s already there. Look at Buffalo, they’ve drafted the likes of Dahlin, Eichel, Power, Reinhart, Mittlestadt. A pretty elite collection of talent. But they never made good adds to improve on that and their trades have been abysmal. So they are where they are now.

Our current management seems extremely set up to make the smart moves, our pro scouting seems to have absolutely taken off these last couple seasons. Build off our current base and see where we can go.

 

[super6646]

A) you’re living in hypotheticals. Not in reality. You definitely can build a team with lower picks. But where are these players? Are you seeing them, cause I don’t. You use Vancouver, Tampa, Dallas, Boston as examples. Where is our Robertson, Hintz, Heidkanen, Kucherov, Hedman, Petterson, Miller, Hughes, Pastrnak, McCavoy, etc.? NYR got Panarin and Fox in ways that we never will

This team is devoid of elite talent. It’s painfully obvious. They are in the part of the cycle where they can play some young players and get a few top picks to speed up the rebuild. Why slap some lipstick on a pig in the form of Chandler Stevenson? Instead be intellectually honest and realize this team needs to stockpile talent for a few years.

Because short term gratification is preferable to waiting. Applies to sports and life in general.

The “compete and anything can happen” mandate has been this team’s motto for 2 decades and it’s accomplished nothing. Our best natural centres are nearing their mid-30s… their replacements at the moment are Rory Kerins and Jaden Lipinski.

Anyone remotely honest with themselves can see this is not a team that is competing for 3-5 years. They need to draft 1-2 top 4d ( one that is a #1 caliber one) and at least one solid #1C before they get anywhere. Trades and FA help supplement a team, but you are not getting those foundational pieces through trades or FA.

As I said before, we needed Zary, Pelletier, and coronato to all top out as top line/top 6 pieces if this was going to work, including the first as a centre. Right now we’ve got one second line winger out of that, and that’s pretty good, but not good enough.

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

Which contender do you see that was not built through the draft? I constantly see people trying to make this point but provide absolutely no examples of great teams that have not drafted high. It is true that not every team that rebuilds becomes a Stanley Cup champion but there isn't a Cup champion without a top 3 pick on their roster.

Vegas? Unless you’re counting Eichel as a top pick even though he wasn’t drafted by them

 

[Yepthatsme]

A) you’re living in hypotheticals. Not in reality. You definitely can build a team with lower picks. But where are these players? Are you seeing them, cause I don’t. You use Vancouver, Tampa, Dallas, Boston as examples. Where is our Robertson, Hintz, Heidkanen, Kucherov, Hedman, Petterson, Miller, Hughes, Pastrnak, McCavoy, etc.? NYR got Panarin and Fox in ways that we never will

This team is devoid of elite talent. It’s painfully obvious. They are in the part of the cycle where they can play some young players and get a few top picks to speed up the rebuild. Why slap some lipstick on a pig in the form of Chandler Stevenson? Instead be intellectually honest and realize this team needs to stockpile talent for a few years.

…exactly? That’s why we aren’t up there amongst them right now? I don’t know what point you’re trying to prove right now.

We’ve accumulated a mass amount of picks, we probably aren’t done while having 3 UFA forwards in our top 9 next year, and we have legitimately been a top 5 drafting team for getting value from our spots for a good stretch of seasons now. Let’s try to add those players in the draft, while adding in free agency with our vast amount of cap space to the current core and see where we can go.

Like seriously, we have 50% more picks in the top 3 rounds of the next 3 drafts than normal, we are set up to try and add thise steals already.

 

[User1996]

I assume you mean built through high picks. In that case, Boston does not have a single player they drafted top 10 on their roster. Dallas has 1. New York Rangers have 2, and I would love to hear someone try to say Kaako and Lafreniere are why they are at the top of the standings. Nashville Predators have 0, and they’re the hottest team in the league coming into the playoffs. Tampa Bay has 2 that were drafted in 2008 and 2009, and are currently being carried hard by their non 1st round picks. So let me know if 3 of the top 4 teams in the NHL isn’t enough and I can do a deeper dive.

Are we seriously arguing Victor Hedman is being not only carried, but “carried hard” by Taylor Raddysh or whoever his partner is? He’s still their best defenceman and it’s not really close either. To imply he’s not a massive part of that team is laughable.

Besides, look at how most of those teams, with the exception being NYR acquired the high end skill on their team - DRAFTING.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Because short term gratification is preferable to waiting. Applies to sports and life in general.

That has been this team’s motto for 2 decades and it’s accomplished nothing. Our best natural centres are nearing their mid-30s… their replacements at the moment are Rory Kerins and Jaden Lipinski.

Anyone remotely honest with themselves can see this is not a team that is competing for 3-5 years. They need to draft 1-2 top 4d ( one that is a #1 caliber one) and at least one solid #1C before they get anywhere. Trades and FA help supplement a team, but you are not getting those foundational pieces through trades or FA.

There’s roughly a 50% chance that a rebuild takes a decade. That’s not me just throwing out numbers, that’s just how it worked out for a good majority of the rebuilds that have happened since around 2010. There is absolutely no guarantee after suffering for those 10 years that you don’t just turn into Buffalo who did insanely well at drafting and did nothing with it, Arizona and Columbus where you suck for that long and still come out with no elite talent, Ottawa and Montreal that seem allergic to taking the next step, or Detroit who looks like they’re coming out of it as a bubble team.

Are we seriously arguing Victor Hedman is being not only carried, but “carried hard” by Taylor Raddysh or whoever his partner is? He’s still their best defenceman and it’s not really close either. To imply he’s not a massive part of that team is laughable.

Besides, look at how most of those teams, with the exception being NYR acquired the high end skill on their team - DRAFTING.

…if you don’t think that team lives and dies off Kucherov and Point this year I don’t know what to tell you man.

That was a monumental leap from you to try and swing a moral victory though, why on Earth would I be referencing Raddysh?

 

[User1996]

…as opposed to only talking about what the guys who want to quit on our current team want to do?

I’ll go bold here actually. It’s impossible to build a contender through drafting alone. It gets done by teams making making smart trades and free agency moves to improve on a core that’s established, whether that’s through drafting or one that’s already there. Look at Buffalo, they’ve drafted the likes of Dahlin, Eichel, Power, Reinhart, Mittlestadt. A pretty elite collection of talent. But they never made good adds to improve on that and their trades have been abysmal. So they are where they are now.

Our current management seems extremely set up to make the smart moves, our pro scouting seems to have absolutely taken off these last couple seasons. Build off our current base and see where we can go.

Man, it’s not even that bold at all, nobody here is arguing that you can’t add players in other ways to supplement your roster and become a contender - in fact, everyone probably recognizes that.

We don’t have that core of talent to supplement. How will we get it? There’s no FA this year, maybe trade, but without a doubt the most proven, efficient way to do it is drafting.

 

[User1996]

…if you don’t think that team lives and dies off Kucherov and Point this year I don’t know what to tell you man.

That was a monumental leap from you to try and swing a moral victory though, why on Earth would I be referencing Raddysh?

You’re really showing a lack of hockey knowledge here the last few days.

You’re completely minimizing Herman’s impact. He is on track to have his second best producing season ever, and is still a massive part of that core. Are you arguing they’d even be in the playoff picture without him? If you take him away, do the Lighting have a sniff at another cup right now? If your answer is yes, your bias and delusion is showing. If your answer is no, your previous argument is incredibly flawed. I’m

 

[Mobiandi]

It’s all fun and games with drafting until we pick up Cale Makar in free agency just in time for the new arena

 

[Potty John]

I would love to bring Monahan back this offseason.

 

[Yepthatsme]

You’re really showing a lack of hockey knowledge here the last few days.

You’re completely minimizing Herman’s impact. He is on track to have his second best producing season ever, and is still a massive part of that core. Are you arguing they’d even be in the playoff picture without him? If you take him away, do the Lighting have a sniff at another cup right now? If your answer is yes, your bias and delusion is showing. If your answer is no, your previous argument is incredibly flawed. I’m

Imagine having the gall to say someone has been showing a lack of hockey knowledge because they’ve had the audacity to disagree with you for a couple days lol.

Especially on the topic that a teams Hart Finalist this season is a more important part of a team than their 1D. Tampa would be so hilariously worse without Point and Kucherov this season than Hedman, and it’s really not debatable. Like at all. I honestly have to imagine this is just a misunderstanding at this point.

Or are you referencing your statement that Silayev needs a stronger set of hands and edgework on the offensive blue line if he wants to be like Suter, Weber or Chara? Like I honestly don’t think you watched any of them play. Or when you said him being the only defenseman to play in the KHL for a full season doesn’t mean much at all for his potential? Are these the opinions I don’t have hockey knowledge for not agreeing with?

 

[IharRB]

The owners have their own vision of reconstruction.
I think they are afraid of losses and losing the franchise. So don't dream that the flame will roll down to the very bottom.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

…exactly? That’s why we aren’t up there amongst them right now? I don’t know what point you’re trying to prove right now.

We’ve accumulated a mass amount of picks, we probably aren’t done while having 3 UFA forwards in our top 9 next year, and we have legitimately been a top 5 drafting team for getting value from our spots for a good stretch of seasons now. Let’s try to add those players in the draft, while adding in free agency with our vast amount of cap space to the current core and see where we can go.

Like seriously, we have 50% more picks in the top 3 rounds of the next 3 drafts than normal, we are set up to try and add thise steals already.

So you want us to use our capspace and picks to aquire FA's. How did getting Hub & Kadri go?
Your plan could set us back years.
We need to use the capspace to take on contracts that other teams want to get rid of & collect more picks - not trade them.

 

[Yepthatsme]

So you want us to use our capspace and picks to aquire FA's. How did getting Hub & Kadri go?
Your plan could set us back years.
We need to use the capspace to take on contracts that other teams want to get rid of & collect more picks - not trade them.

Huberdeau wasn’t a free agent so don’t see how he factors in, but Kadri is doing pretty amazingly. Leads our team in points while working with an all rookie line that combine for less points than him. Same as Markstrom, who has probably been team MVP this season. Same as Coleman, who’s in the top 3 in that same regard. Tanev was the rock of our defense core.

What was your point here? Every free agent addition we have has carried us this year, like we legitimately didn’t have a bad one unless you want to start calling out our sub 2M guys. I dare say everyone one of our meaningful UFA signings were our most impactful players this year. Our top 3 goal scorers this season were FA and a buy low trade, my exact hopes for what we do.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Huberdeau wasn’t a free agent so don’t see how he factors in, but Kadri is doing pretty amazingly. Leads our team in points while working with an all rookie line that combine for less points than him. Same as Markstrom, who has probably been team MVP this season. Same as Coleman, who’s in the top 3 in that same regard. Tanev was the rock of our defense core.

What was your point here? Every free agent addition we have has carried us this year, like we legitimately didn’t have a bad one unless you want to start calling out our sub 2M guys.

You said we should use our picks & sign FA to aquire players - hence me citing Hubs & Kadri.
And while Kadri has done decently, neither player has been enough to get us to the playoffs, right?

So how would your plan be any better? You want us to basically the same thing we did a year & a half ago. Do you love spinning your tires?

 

[Lunatik]

A) you’re living in hypotheticals.

Everyone here is, even you. Everything spewed by anyone about changes or or the direction of this team is living in hypotheticals

 

[Yepthatsme]

You said we should use our picks & sign FA to aquire players - hence me citing Hubs & Kadri.
And while Kadri has done decently, neither player has been enough to get us to the playoffs, right?

So how would your plan be any better? You want us to basically the same thing we did a year & a half ago. Do you love spinning your tires?

You just said in consecutive posts to use picks for trades and sign FAs to fill our team and cited Huberdeau both times, who fits neither of those, and I’m the one spinning my tires. By your logic, Chicago just drafted Bedard and yet are still last, so why would drafting 1st help again? It’s almost like building a team is a process. We should name it something, like re-hammer or re-saw or something. Something tool related for sure.