Speculation: Armchair GM 2023-24 Season. If we can't say "Rebuild" what do we call it?

FLAMESFAN

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Feb 27, 2002
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You just said in consecutive posts to use picks for trades and sign FAs to fill our team and cited Huberdeau both times, who fits neither of those, and I’m the one spinning my tires. By your logic, Chicago just drafted Bedard and yet are still last, so why would drafting 1st help again? It’s almost like building a team is a process. We should name it something, like re-hammer or re-saw or something. Something tool related for sure.
What? I have absolutely not said we should trade our picks, that's you bud.
I'm fully on board for a rebuild.
Yes, by my logic Chicago will be a damn good team in a few years.
I've been a fan of this team for 40 years, I can handle a few years of rebuilding if it'll mean we can build a real contender.
 

Backlund

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I assume you mean built through high picks. In that case, Boston does not have a single player they drafted top 10 on their roster. Dallas has 1. New York Rangers have 2, and I would love to hear someone try to say Kaako and Lafreniere are why they are at the top of the standings. Nashville Predators have 0, and they’re the hottest team in the league coming into the playoffs. Tampa Bay has 2 that were drafted in 2008 and 2009, and are currently being carried hard by their non 1st round picks. So let me know if 3 of the top 4 teams in the NHL isn’t enough and I can do a deeper dive.

What have any of those teams won? Tampa won with Stamkos and Hedman as main contributors. The rest don't matter.

Vegas? Unless you’re counting Eichel as a top pick even though he wasn’t drafted by them

Vega was built through the expansion draft then they traded anyone whenever they could get an upgrade. Eichel counts but players like him are rarely traded. If they become available you still need high quality assets to acquire them.
 

Yepthatsme

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What have any of those teams won? Tampa won with Stamkos and Hedman as main contributors. The rest don't matter.



Vega was built through the expansion draft then they traded anyone whenever they could get an upgrade. Eichel counts but players like him are rarely traded. If they become available you still need high quality assets to acquire them.
So now we are moving goalposts eh? Well if we are counting winners we can do Detroit’s dynasty team, Bostons cup win, St Louis cup win with 1 top 10 draft pick total. I’m excited to here why those also don’t count though, but for next time can you tell me where the goal posts will go ahead of time?
 

Yepthatsme

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So you want us to use our capspace and picks to aquire FA's. How did getting Hub & Kadri go?.

Huberdeau wasn’t a free agent so don’t see how he factors in.

You said we should use our picks & sign FA to aquire players - hence me citing Hubs & Kadri.

What? I have absolutely not said we should trade our picks, that's you bud.
I'm fully on board for a rebuild.
Yes, by my logic Chicago will be a damn good team in a few years.
I've been a fan of this team for 40 years, I can handle a few years of rebuilding if it'll mean we can build a real contender.
Like I don’t even know what to say here, the comprehension here was bad. Huberdeau wasn’t added in free agency and we didn’t use picks, yet the entire foundation of your argument is “we can’t use free agency, or picks to add buy low candidates, because look how bad that worked out with Huberdeau”?
 
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Backlund

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So now we are moving goalposts eh? Well if we are counting winners we can do Detroit’s dynasty team, Bostons cup win, St Louis cup win with 1 top 10 draft pick total. I’m excited to here why those also don’t count though, but for next time can you tell me where the goal posts will go ahead of time?

How did I move the goalposts? Your argument is just weak.

How do you plan on getting Hall of Famers late in the draft to match what Detroit was able to do? Do you believe this team has a scouting staff capable? Not to mention drafting is much different than it was when Detroit was able to get Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom. Detroit is a lazy excuse.

Boston got arguably the best 2 way center in the past 20 years in the 2nd round of the draft and had Tim Thomas play at a level very few goalies have played at. He had a .940 save percentage and 1.98 GAA over 25 games. That isn't something easily replicable. They also haven't gotten out of the 2nd round since 2018-19.

Pietrangelo was a 4th overall pick, ROR is a Selke winner and the Blues were a 1 and done team. They also haven't been good for awhile or made it out of the 1st round since. Do you want to be the Blues? That's a terrible model to try and follow.

You're trying to argue using things that are rare occurrences and the exceptions to the rule. Those are the only cup winners since the lockout that are outliers. Everyone else had to draft high for their elite talent.
 

FLAMESFAN

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Like I don’t even know what to say here, the comprehension here was bad. Huberdeau wasn’t added in free agency and we didn’t use picks, yet the entire foundation of your argument is “we can’t use free agency, or picks to add buy low candidates, because look how bad that worked out with Huberdeau”?
Yes, your comprehension has been bad....
You're spinning just like you'd have the team do.
 

Mobiandi

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Jan 17, 2015
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Naturally leaning into rebuilding is fine. We haven’t been an outright bad team in 8 years which is about right for the cap era. The only reason why that happened is because our two marquee forwards left in the same summer.

We don’t have to use cap space just because it’s there. And we won’t ruin the culture of the organization if we let this era run its course for the next 2-3 years. Instead of patching the pipes up with duct tape, just wait for some new pipes to be delivered.

I remember when this fanbase couldn’t wait for Wideman’s contract to run out. Then we signed Brouwer, bought him out and then got Neal, then swapped him for Lucic. Now we have currently have big money tied up in 4 guys over 30 - some of the biggest contracts in franchise history. Why do we need to keep adding to that and paint ourselves into a corner?
 

Yepthatsme

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How did I move the goalposts? Your argument is just weak.

How do you plan on getting Hall of Famers late in the draft to match what Detroit was able to do? Do you believe this team has a scouting staff capable? Not to mention drafting is much different than it was when Detroit was able to get Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom. Detroit is a lazy excuse.

Boston got arguably the best 2 way center in the past 20 years in the 2nd round of the draft and had Tim Thomas play at a level very few goalies have played at. He had a .940 save percentage and 1.98 GAA over 25 games. That isn't something easily replicable. They also haven't gotten out of the 2nd round since 2018-19.

Pietrangelo was a 4th overall pick, ROR is a Selke winner and the Blues were a 1 and done team. They also haven't been good for awhile or made it out of the 1st round since. Do you want to be the Blues? That's a terrible model to try and follow.

You're trying to argue using things that are rare occurrences and the exceptions to the rule. Those are the only cup winners since the lockout that are outliers. Everyone else had to draft high for their elite talent.
Ok so if you remove 5 contenders, 2 of the last 4 teams who won a cup, another one in the 2010s, and a dynasty team, nobody is capable of winning without multiple top picks. Got it. We definitely can’t emulate those teams either, because I can’t think of a single (Gaudreau) talented (Fox) player (Andersson) we (Giordano) identified, outside our high 1sts of course.

Also major props for plowing through my joke about how you’d tell me they don’t count and still explaining how they shouldn’t count.
Yes, your comprehension has been bad....
You're spinning just like you'd have the team do.
This is a bad look man
 

Backlund

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Ok so if you remove 5 contenders, 2 of the last 4 teams who won a cup, another one in the 2010s, and a dynasty team, nobody is capable of without multiple top picks. Got it. We definitely can’t emulate those teams either, because I can’t think of a single (Gaudreau) talented (Fox) player (Andersson) we (Giordano) identified, outside our high 1sts of course.

Who did I remove? Tampa proves the point I originally made with Stamkos and Hedman. St. Louis does as well because of Pietrangelo. Boston drafted Thornton but traded him because they got lucky drafting their top 6 centers in the 2nd round and European scouting is different now so it's not reasonable to think you could emulate Detroit. So 2 teams out of 18 since the lockout?

Gaudreau left as soon as he could, Fox wouldn't even sign here, Andersson isn't an elite player and Giordano is a guy we signed almost 20 years ago and wasn't a #1 until his last couple seasons here. What the f*** are you trying to argue? Even with Gadureau, Andersson and Giordano this team made it to the 2nd round twice and were clearly outmatched. How exactly do they help your argument?
 

Tkachuk Norris

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Since 2009 only one team have won the cup without home grown top 5 picks playing huge roles, Vegas (last year). And they had Pietrangelo and Eichel as their best players.

No one is saying trade all our players. Or that this team needs to be bad for 6 years. Or to follow the Buffalo model.

We are saying:
A) don’t sign UFAs and block young players from getting experience
B) play young players at premium positions ie Pospisil and Zary at C. Put them in positions to succeed and give them rope so we don’t end up with mistakes we’ve made in the past like Bennett
C) Realize that losing is okay for a few years as long as the team keeps trying hard.

I don’t know why some people support this ownership mandate of trying to finish 8th in the west. I’ve watched this team for over 30 years and it’s extremely tiring. We’ve won under 5 rounds in that time and if that isn’t a reason to change philosophies I don’t know what is.

I do agree this fan base can be obnoxious with its treatment of good players ie Hanifin is a #4 D, can’t win with players like Gaudreau or Tkachuk, Monahan is a 4LW .. hopefully we will learn our lesson to stop blaming our best players (I’m not hopeful in this regard). But it doesn’t mean we shouldnt be realistic and realize that this team has zero chance against teams like Colorado as currently constructed.
 
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FLAMESFAN

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Naturally leaning into rebuilding is fine. We haven’t been an outright bad team in 8 years which is about right for the cap era. The only reason why that happened is because our two marquee forwards left in the same summer.

We don’t have to use cap space just because it’s there. And we won’t ruin the culture of the organization if we let this era run its course for the next 2-3 years. Instead of patching the pipes up with duct tape, just wait for some new pipes to be delivered.

I remember when this fanbase couldn’t wait for Wideman’s contract to run out. Then we signed Brouwer, bought him out and then got Neal, then swapped him for Lucic. Now we have currently have big money tied up in 4 guys over 30 - some of the biggest contracts in franchise history. Why do we need to keep adding to that and paint ourselves into a corner?

This post needs to be repeated

It's a gambler on tilt mentality to go and trade our capspace & picks to try and upgrade right now.
Anyone with a little foresight & patience can see we need to restock the cupboards
 

User1996

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Imagine having the gall to say someone has been showing a lack of hockey knowledge because they’ve had the audacity to disagree with you for a couple days lol.

Especially on the topic that a teams Hart Finalist this season is a more important part of a team than their 1D. Tampa would be so hilariously worse without Point and Kucherov this season than Hedman, and it’s really not debatable. Like at all. I honestly have to imagine this is just a misunderstanding at this point.

Or are you referencing your statement that Silayev needs a stronger set of hands and edgework on the offensive blue line if he wants to be like Suter, Weber or Chara? Like I honestly don’t think you watched any of them play. Or when you said him being the only defenseman to play in the KHL for a full season doesn’t mean much at all for his potential? Are these the opinions I don’t have hockey knowledge for not agreeing with?
You dodged the question. My guess because it flys in the face of your argument. Which, if refused to answer again, I will assume it’s your way of admitting how hilariously bad this take has been.

Would they, or would they not still be considered a contender in your eyes without Hedman this year?

I didn’t ask if Tampa would be worse off without Point or Kucherov - that’s obvious (even though losing a 1D of Hedman’s calibre would be absolutely detrimental so it is debatable).

P.S Thats a vast misrepresentation of what I actually am arguing.
 

JPeeper

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Jan 4, 2015
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Supporting mediocrity is why the Flames are never in the playoffs for sustained time periods, have only 1 Cup in 4 decades, have only made the finals three times in 4 decades, have only made the Conference finals three times in 4 decades.

Like do people understand the Calgary Flames have made it out of the 2nd round only 3 times in 40+ years. I'm 33 years old, in my entire life the Flames have made it out of the 2nd round once. ONCE.

I will take the risk on tanking for elite talent and having that re-build bust opposed to finishing 6th-10th in the West for ever and ever, I watched the Flames do that for a decade+ it sucked.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Supporting mediocrity is why the Flames are never in the playoffs for sustained time periods, have only 1 Cup in 4 decades, have only made the finals three times in 4 decades, have only made the Conference finals three times in 4 decades.

Like do people understand the Calgary Flames have made it out of the 2nd round only 3 times in 40+ years. I'm 33 years old, in my entire life the Flames have made it out of the 2nd round once. ONCE.

I will take the risk on tanking for elite talent and having that re-build bust opposed to finishing 6th-10th in the West for ever and ever, I watched the Flames do that for a decade+ it sucked.
How we support the team doesn't have any affect on what the Flames do on the ice. Blaming fans that actually cheer for the team for them being mediocre is beyond f***ing asinine and is completely delusional.
 

RasmusAndersson

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Vancouver was berated for selling draft picks to add Hronek, Winnipeg last season for retaining Scheifele and Hellybuck, Boston was supposed to be terrible after losing both their top 6 Cs. New Jersey was part of the short list of contenders this year. Buffalo was a top offensive team in the league with a strong up and coming defense core and goaltending. Philadelphia was laughed at for adding Torts. Washington was washed and too old. Anyone who tells you they know what for sure an NHL team can do are liars. We had the 8th best 5v5 offense for the majority of the year, imagine the difference just a good powerplay may have had on the season.

Calgary is going into this off season and next offseason with some of the most open and usable cap space league wide both times. Free agency is one thing, but we can also weaponize some of our excess draft capital to target the JT Miller, Hronek, and Debrincat trades of the world to add to our team from teams facing tough roster decisions. Having a base and cap space could spell large changes.


Do you think there’s a single draft pick that can make us a contender. It’s part of a process of adding players to create a winning team?
This post (and your entire argument strategy) can be summarized as one giant strawman argument. Instead of addressing what people are actually arguing, you misrepresent and oversimplify the hell out of what everyone argues to make it seem like everyone who advocates for a rebuild wants us to suck for a decade and want 0 good players on our roster.

Literally every single fan here would love to follow in the footsteps of Boston/Dallas and build a contender without completely bottoming out. Literally every fan would love to use our excess capital to trade for elite talent if the next Eichel/actually elite player comes available (I would argue a guy like Debrincat is exactly the wrong guy to target, but that’s a different argument). Every fan also wants to weaponize our cap space, it’s just a matter of how to do that in a way that sets us up for long-term success, not just the short term. And not one fan thinks that one draft pick will change this organization.

What everyone is saying, though, is that you can’t just say ‘be like Boston/Dallas and find Pastrnak/McAvoy/Heiskanen/Robertson’. Of course if it was that easy to draft elite talent outside the top-5, everyone would do it. We obviously should still strive to find those elite guys, and obviously try to do that every year, but it’s not just something we can guarantee, the same way tanking like Buffalo/Arizona doesn’t guarantee success. That’s why, just like in business, we need to sell our current assets (like Conroy did) for future assets and invest in R&D. Doesn’t mean trade everybody with value, but it does mean prioritizing youth and not overpaying more vets that take roster spots from our young players and keep us mediocre.

And of course we’d love to trade for the next elite young player, but if it were that easy to address our areas of need (particularly 1C and 1D), every rebuilding team would have just done that already. We are in a completely different spot than Vancouver for example. They have the 1C and 1D, they just needed support around them. Look at LA overpaying for Dubois or NJ paying a premium for Meier, those types of moves are risky, ESPECIALLY when a team gives these players a long-term contract before they play a game in their uniform.

So that is why most fans don’t want another ~30 year old C who will be asking for a long term contract. It’s the last thing we need, and I absolutely love Stephenson. We should be looking for young buy-low players that can contribute in 3-5 years when all our draft capital has (ideally) been spent on quality young players. Like others have said, we need to find the next Stephenson instead of paying a premium for one who will be looking for a big raise.

So stop changing the argument and making it seem like every fan other than you wants to suck just for the sake of it. We all want to explore every avenue to find valuable pieces. It just comes down to the reality that we’re now a non-playoff team for two years with no real elite forward or d prospects. And our best shot of this talent is the top of the draft.
 
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FLAMESFAN

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Ya, its going to be a tough couple years....but I look forward to watching the young guys currently on the team start to take a leading role, the guys almost ready to take that next step and the current prospects to take their place on the Farm.
I also look for ward to the prospects we're about to pick. I'm super excited about the possibilities from this draft alone, plus we'll likely have lots again next year.
2025 draft looks great - again if we can get into the top 5 we'll come away with a top prospect. Hagens, Misa, Frondell, McQueen, Martone are all players we desperatley need.
Then 2026 theres McKenna, who's already carrying his team when it really matters. Plus Joe Iginla, who many say is the better brother.
2027 there's Dupont (former Flame Micki Dupont's kid) who just got Ex status to play WHL next year as a 15 YO. And he's not the only one...add another 4 or so Franchise players in this draft

This whole site is called Hockeys Future. It's OK to look forward to the future.
 

Yepthatsme

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You dodged the question. My guess because it flys in the face of your argument. Which, if refused to answer again, I will assume it’s your way of admitting how hilariously bad this take has been.

Would they, or would they not still be considered a contender in your eyes without Hedman this year?

I didn’t ask if Tampa would be worse off without Point or Kucherov - that’s obvious (even though losing a 1D of Hedman’s calibre would be absolutely detrimental so it is debatable).

P.S Thats a vast misrepresentation of what I actually am arguing.
This year definitely not. But their team makeup is a lot more fragile than in previous years which is why I don’t really think they’re much of a contender regardless. But this argument is so fundamentally flawed. They also aren’t a cup contender without Kucherov, or Point, or Vasilevski, or Stamkos, or Hagel etc. Yes they need Hedman, but do you think Hedman (and Stamkos) has been the reason for their success or Kucherov, Point, Vasilevski, Killorn, Gourde, Cirelli, Palat, and the additions they made?

Tampa bay is the way they are not because they got 2 high picks 15 years ago, but because they were the best team in the league by far at identifying talent well above their respective draft slot and their ability to recognize players through trade that would excel on their team. They are a terrible example to use if you’re trying to say you can’t win without high picks, they got there by being the best team on draft day for the better part of a decade.
 

Yepthatsme

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This post (and your entire argument strategy) can be summarized as one giant strawman argument. Instead of addressing what people are actually arguing, you misrepresent and oversimplify the hell out of what everyone argues to make it seem like everyone who advocates for a rebuild wants us to suck for a decade and want 0 good players on our roster.

Literally every single fan here would love to follow in the footsteps of Boston/Dallas and build a contender without completely bottoming out. Literally every fan would love to use our excess capital to trade for elite talent if the next Eichel/actually elite player comes available (I would argue a guy like Debrincat is exactly the wrong guy to target, but that’s a different argument). Every fan also wants to weaponize our cap space, it’s just a matter of how to do that in a way that sets us up for long-term success, not just the short term. And not one fan thinks that one draft pick will change this organization.

What everyone is saying, though, is that you can’t just say ‘be like Boston/Dallas and find Pastrnak/McAvoy/Heiskanen/Robertson’. Of course if it was that easy to draft elite talent outside the top-5, everyone would do it. We obviously should still strive to find those elite guys, and obviously try to do that every year, but it’s not just something we can guarantee, the same way tanking like Buffalo/Arizona doesn’t guarantee success. That’s why, just like in business, we need to sell our current assets (like Conroy did) for future assets and invest in R&D. Doesn’t mean trade everybody with value, but it does mean prioritizing youth and not overpaying more vets that take roster spots from our young players and keep us mediocre.

And of course we’d love to trade for the next elite young player, but if it were that easy to address our areas of need (particularly 1C and 1D), every rebuilding team would have just done that already. We are in a completely different spot than Vancouver for example. They have the 1C and 1D, they just needed support around them. Look at LA overpaying for Dubois or NJ paying a premium for Meier, those types of moves are risky, ESPECIALLY when a team gives these players a long-term contract before they play a game in their uniform.

So that is why most fans don’t want another ~30 year old C who will be asking for a long term contract. It’s literally the last thing we need, and I absolutely love Stephenson. We should be looking for young buy-low players that can contribute in 3-5 years when all our draft capital has (ideally) been spent on quality young players. Like others have said, we need to find the next Stephenson instead of paying a premium for one who will be looking for a big raise.

So stop changing the argument and making it seem like every fan other than you wants to suck just for the sake of it. We all want to explore every avenue to find valuable pieces. It just comes down to the reality that we’re now a non-playoff team for two years with no real elite forward or d prospects. And our best shot of this talent is the top of the draft.
It’s this exact line of thinking though. “You can’t expect to be Dallas or Boston”, so tanking is the best way. You also can’t just be Edmonton or Toronto, and have elite game breaking talent fall into your laps. Buffalo and Arizona have been bad for a decade. What elite talent do they have other than Dahlin that they’ve cumulatively drafted? What elite talent does Columbus have? How about Montreal? We could just as easily be like Detroit, come out of the rebuild with still no elite talent to speak of, but we are all a little more grey and bald watching a bubble team. All tanking guarantees is another 5-10 years of missing the playoffs, yet people keep saying it’s our only route to success or atleast our best chance by far.

I’m not at all saying tanking is an awful method or that people just want us to be bad (if anything, the plethora of “why do fans want us to be mediocre” fit that bill better for a straw man). For all we know, we get Celebrini, a 1D next year, then McKenna the following year and come out a dynasty. It’s this talk that tanking is our best and practically only chance to come out good that’s frankly just wrong. I understand that for every NYR, Boston, Dallas there are a Minnesota, Nashville, current us. But for every Colorado, Edmonton, Toronto there are also a Columbus, Buffalo, Arizona.

Before gutting our defense we were looking like a bubble team (after our team figured out Huska’s system we were actually just under being a top 10 team). We have a full stock of young players coming up, a massive surplus of draft picks, and an insane amount of functional cap space the coming seasons. We are already in a great position to improve drastically.
 

Backlund

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Imagine thinking Stamkos & Hedman weren't a HUGE part of TB's Cup runs.

Apparently a team's captain and #1 defenseman aren't necessary pieces. I haven't seen a opinion so idiotic since being told Paul Byron would be the key to our success. He wants us to ignore two foundational pieces for those Stanley Cups because they don't fit his narrative.

Everyone knows you need more than Stamkos and Hedman to win but they weren't going to win without them.
 

Anglesmith

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Sep 17, 2012
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Apparently a team's captain and #1 defenseman aren't necessary pieces. I haven't seen a opinion so idiotic since being told Paul Byron would be the key to our success. He wants us to ignore two foundational pieces for those Stanley Cups because they don't fit his narrative.

Everyone knows you need more than Stamkos and Hedman to win but they weren't going to win without them.
They literally did win one without Stamkos. Hedman was huge that year, for sure, but can anyone really know what they would've done without him?

Defencemen like Hedman seem to be necessary for most Cup winners for sure. They do not need to come from a top 3 pick historically, though.

I am also of the opinion that Tampa would have had a path to a championship without Hedman, but we'll never know. They were incredibly loaded at all positions prior to Vasilevskiy's extension. It's the management which led to that situation that allowed them to win championships, and if you take out those two players it would've still been true.
 

Mobiandi

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Well we had a Norris winner, a Selke-contending centre, and a top 10 pointsman in the league at the same time. None of them came to us through the lottery and we still went out in 5 games to an 8th seed that we swept in the reg season because of Nathan MacKinnon and Cale Makar who joined in game 3.

So maybe there’s more to it than constantly re-tooling your way to glory
 

Backlund

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They literally did win one without Stamkos. Hedman was huge that year, for sure, but can anyone really know what they would've done without him?

Defencemen like Hedman seem to be necessary for most Cup winners for sure. They do not need to come from a top 3 pick historically, though.

I am also of the opinion that Tampa would have had a path to a championship without Hedman, but we'll never know. They were incredibly loaded at all positions prior to Vasilevskiy's extension.

Yeah Stamkos was injured and only played 1 game but Hedman won the Conn Smythe that year. Nobody knows where they would be without him but how would we ever know.

Defenseman like Hedman don't need to come from top 3 picks but how many can you find outside the top 3? It's about how they are most commonly acquired instead of the rare instances where you find them elsewhere. It's easier to draft one with a high pick instead of waiting around to hopefully draft one with a late round pick.

I disagree. I don't think they win a Cup without Hedman but like you said we'll never know. Tampa's ability to find great players in the later rounds of the draft is what gave their team the depth needed to win but they still had top picks as key contributors.

I'd love to draft players like Point and Kucherov and never have to miss the playoffs to acquire the talent required, I just don't think it's realistic to never finish at the bottom and win anymore. This team already isn't a playoff team, the best chance we have at being a contender moving forward is to acquire the talent necessary by drafting high.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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No one is saying that you can’t find good players later in the draft. Or that you don’t need to find good players later in the draft to be a successful organization.

We are saying that this team lacks talent and might as well bottom out and pick up a few high end young players for the next few years instead of signing Chandler Stevenson to chase 8th (and realistically finish 10th to 12th the west). Load up on picks to increase the odds of finding the next Kucherov/Poubt/Hintz/Robertson.

The Flames just don’t have those players in their system, and I say this as a huge homer.

The question the win now crowd has dodged the whole time is are the Calgary Flames good enough to win the cup with the players in the organization?

Don’t talk about Dallas or Tampa. I want to know if you honestly believe this team can win a cup.
 

Yepthatsme

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Apparently a team's captain and #1 defenseman aren't necessary pieces. I haven't seen a opinion so idiotic since being told Paul Byron would be the key to our success. He wants us to ignore two foundational pieces for those Stanley Cups because they don't fit his narrative.

Everyone knows you need more than Stamkos and Hedman to win but they weren't going to win without them.
Nobody is saying what you’re trying to put out there, your views are just getting challenged so instead of looking at the other perspective you’re demonizing it.

Stamkos wasn’t even close to the best forward in the playoffs (neither was Kucherov), and Hedman wasn’t even the best defenseman honestly. Those two weren’t the difference Tampa had over other teams, if that were the case Colorado or Dallas probably would’ve won it all that year with their stud forward/stud defenseman combos. The difference Tampa had was the ability to roll players like Coleman, Killorn, Gourde, Palat, Cirelli and Johnson (while he was still good) out in depth roles, and a pretty insane defense corps of Hedman, Sergachev, McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Cernak, and Bogosion mixed with playoff Vasilevski. Biggest mistake Tampa made was not finding a way to retain McDonagh honestly, his presence on their second pair was a massive part of their success.
 

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