Any Idiot Can Start A Budget Thread--Melnyk and Team Finances III

[Benjamin]

That's my big concern . why sign Phillips instead of say...meszaros for a bit more?

Why sign michalek, instead or throwing a million more for a moulson?

Loyalty > Improvement
Not spending > Upgrading

This is how management views it.

 

[BonkTastic]

Things that attract big name free agents:
1. Money
2. Contending status

We have neither at the moment. So our team is currently not attractive to free agents.

Pretty much.

Anyone who thought we had a realistic chance at Vanek / Moulson / Stastny / etc aren't paying enough attention to the hole this team has dug for itself.

 

[BonkTastic]

Loyalty > Improvement
Not spending > Upgrading

This is how management views it.

No.

Loyalty - cheaper than skill but placates the fanbase (in theory), especially after Alfiegate
Not spending - the only option due to ownership.

THAT'S how management views it.

 

[Micklebot]

That's my big concern . why sign Phillips instead of say...meszaros for a bit more?

Why sign michalek, instead or throwing a million more for a moulson?

Well, for one Meszaros is almost 2 mil more expensive and about as good of a player as Matt Gilroy these days. I don't know what Buffalo was doing, reclamation projects are supposed to come cheap.

As for Moulson, he's a better option, it'll be interesting to see how the two compare at the end of the seasons, my guess is that Moulson earns the extra money, but I think Michalek will still provide decent value.

 

[jbeck5]

Vanek wasn't going to sign here either.

Things that attract big name free agents:
1. Money
2. Contending status

We have neither at the moment. So our team is currently not attractive to free agents.

If we didn't waste money on the greening,condra,phillips,michalek and Neils of the world, we could have paid that money to a top 6 forward AND top 4 d. Since you said all they care about is money. We have some, its just going to our 7th or 8th d and our 10th-14th forwards (excluding michalek in that)

 

[jbeck5]

Well, for one Meszaros is almost 2 mil more expensive and about as good of a player as Matt Gilroy these days. I don't know what Buffalo was doing, reclamation projects are supposed to come cheap.

As for Moulson, he's a better option, it'll be interesting to see how the two compare at the end of the seasons, my guess is that Moulson earns the extra money, but I think Michalek will still provide decent value.

Meszaros>>>gilroy offensively
Meszaros>> girloy defensively.

Girloy>phillips

Meszaros at 4m>>>Phillips at 2.5

I'd rather pay a 4-5 d 4 million then pay a 7th d 2.5.

 

[Cosmix]

I suspect that Melnyk's personal finances are the major factor in his reluctance or inability to have the team spend to the cap. His business losses and divorce have probably been very expensive and reduced his assets. I think he wants the team to operated at a profit or break even point for the next few years until his personal financial situation improves. The recent sale of his horse racing assets will provide some benefits for his personal finances. Having said that, I think teams should be operated in a financially viable way.

 

[BonkTastic]

Girloy>phillips.

This is how one loses credibility in a debate.

 

[jbeck5]

This is how one loses credibility in a debate.

I think they both suck by the way. I just think gilroy can skate. That's the only thing gilroy can do. Phillips is only good at pointing. Skating>pointing.

I wouldn't want either on my team obviously.

And that's how one regains credibility.

 

[BonkTastic]

Phillips is only good at pointing.

And that's how one regains credibility.

Far be it from me to let hyperbole stand in the way of actual analysis...

I learned a long time ago that it's useless to argue people on this site who have already made up their minds about hating a player. There is no (regular posting) habit harder to break on HFSens than a negative opinion of a player.

 

[Micklebot]

Far be it from me to let hyperbole stand in the way of actual analysis...

I learned a long time ago that it's useless to argue people on this site who have already made up their minds about hating a player. There is no habit harder to break on HFSens than a negative opinion of a player.

Not even heroin? I've heard that's a tough habit to break.

 

[Xspyrit]

If this board wasn't emo-parano enough... wait until next season since the team is operating on a low payroll. Every dollar will be over scrutinized, like even more than before, if that's even possible

Sens players, be ready to get blasted ad nauseam

I will understand if you decide to walk away for Ottawa at some point. Low budget, unrealistic fanbase, not in contending status... Only hope is that the young players mature very fast so they can feel that they are close to contending

It's going to be a long season on this board, even if the team does better than expected.

Meszaros>>>gilroy offensively
Meszaros>> girloy defensively.

Girloy>phillips

Meszaros at 4m>>>Phillips at 2.5

I'd rather pay a 4-5 d 4 million then pay a 7th d 2.5.

Makes a lot of sense... or not

 

[jbeck5]

If this board wasn't emo-parano enough... wait until next season since the team is operating on a low payroll. Every dollar will be over scrutinized, like even more than before, if that's even possible

Sens players, be ready to get blasted ad nauseam

I will understand if you decide to walk away for Ottawa at some point. Low budget, unrealistic fanbase, not in contending status... Only hope is that the young players mature very fast so they can feel that they are close to contending

It's going to be a long season on this board, even if the team does better than expected.



Makes a lot of sense... or not

Which part do you disagree with?

 

[Xspyrit]

Which part do you disagree with?

The overall thing... I can't take someone who says Gilroy > Phillips seriously. Better skating doesn't make someone better (and Phillips skating is still fine for NHL standards). This "Phillips is terrible" thing is probably the biggest over reaction I have seen on this site, and that says a lot. Sure, he isn't as mobile as before so he can't cut the angles as much. Result : the team gives up a lot of perimeter shots from the outside. Same thing with Cowen, players know they won't go through him so they go to the outside and he has a problem with catching the gap of the fastest skaters actually (probably because of hip problems which affects his mobility) but it stills ends up in routine shots (for NHL goalies). Both Philips and Cowen are physical D-men who play the body, they get in the lane and box the perimeter. Obviously, they don't play like Karlsson, there's many styles in the NHL and for D-men, it's not Karlsson or bust. And for Phillips major blunders, he still literally "saves" as many goals on his goal line or with a stick at the last second. Also notice how his 2 major mistakes last year were related to a direct play with Spezza, the hardest predictable on the team and maybe on earth. The other thing that seems to influence people's opinion is the "pointing" thing, which is also another ridiculous thing to complain about. What people don't think about is that Phillips always has to play with new partners (since Volchenkov is gone) and most of the time, it is green rookies. Not easy to create instant chemistry and communication. The pointing thing is simply miscommunication. The Sens were disorganized in their zone last year and some forwards were cheating too much. Made D-men looked bad but it was not really an ability problem. Maybe I don't know anything about hockey though

But let's all bash Phillips, a guy who did so much for this team, wants to be here and took hometown discounts all his career. Simply because he is getting older, like we all do. And he still have a pretty tough task (teaching young guys, doing more than he should because of the lack of experience and money to fill the gaps) instead of being shelled on the 3rd pair of a veteran team all the way to a happy retirement. The fanbase is turning its back on Phillips and I find it disgusting.

So no, I don't think a guy who can't even stick 1 year with one team is better than Phillips. Gilroy is a journeyman depth guy, Phillips is a veteran that will play over 1200 NHL games, let's be real?

And Meszaros is overpaid at 4.125. Only thing he is better than Phillips is offensively, and even then, doesn't produce much more (career 0.38 vs 0.25, and his best pace was with Ottawa so it's less than that in the last few years)

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

The overall thing... I can't take someone who says Gilroy > Phillips seriously. Better skating doesn't make someone better (and Phillips skating is still fine for NHL standards). This "Phillips is terrible" thing is probably the biggest over reaction I have seen on this site, and that says a lot. Sure, he isn't as mobile as before so he can't cut the angles as much. Result : the team gives up a lot of perimeter shots from the outside. Same thing with Cowen, players know they won't go through him so they go to the outside and he has a problem with catching the gap of the fastest skaters actually (probably because of hip problems which affects his mobility) but it stills ends up in routine shots (for NHL goalies). Both Philips and Cowen are physical D-men who play the body, they get in the lane and box the perimeter. Obviously, they don't play like Karlsson, there's many styles in the NHL and for D-men, it's not Karlsson or bust. And for Phillips major blunders, he still literally "saves" as many goals on his goal line or with a stick at the last second. Also notice how his 2 major mistakes last year were related to a direct play with Spezza, the hardest predictable on the team and maybe on earth. The other thing that seems to influence people's opinion is the "pointing" thing, which is also another ridiculous thing to complain about. What people don't think about is that Phillips always has to play with new partners (since Volchenkov is gone) and most of the time, it is green rookies. Not easy to create instant chemistry and communication. The pointing thing is simply miscommunication. The Sens were disorganized in their zone last year and some forwards were cheating too much. Made D-men looked bad but it was not really an ability problem. Maybe I don't know anything about hockey though

But let's all bash Phillips, a guy who did so much for this team, wants to be here and took hometown discounts all his career. Simply because he is getting older, like we all do. And he still have a pretty tough task (teaching young guys, doing more than he should because of the lack of experience and money to fill the gaps) instead of being shelled on the 3rd pair of a veteran team all the way to a happy retirement. The fanbase is turning its back on Phillips and I find it disgusting.

So no, I don't think a guy who can't even stick 1 year with one team is better than Phillips. Gilroy is a journeyman depth guy, Phillips is a veteran that will play over 1200 NHL games, let's be real?

And Meszaros is overpaid at 4.125. Only thing he is better than Phillips is offensively, and even then, doesn't produce much more (career 0.38 vs 0.25, and his best pace was with Ottawa so it's less than that in the last few years)

This is one of the best posts I've read on this site in a long time. Im not even sure what I can add to this, you cover pretty much everything!

I just find it sad how many in this fanbase have declared war on Phillips. THe guy can still play. Keep him on the bottom pair and he'll look great. It's not his fault that Cowen and Weircioch weren't able to raise their game last season, the coach was forced to play him more since the young guys struggled all year. He's the perfect kind of guy to play with a Ceci. LEad from within the lockerroom. A team needs vets around especially with the plethora of young talent around the Senators right now.

 

[jbeck5]

The overall thing... I can't take someone who says Gilroy > Phillips seriously. Better skating doesn't make someone better (and Phillips skating is still fine for NHL standards). This "Phillips is terrible" thing is probably the biggest over reaction I have seen on this site, and that says a lot. Sure, he isn't as mobile as before so he can't cut the angles as much. Result : the team gives up a lot of perimeter shots from the outside. Same thing with Cowen, players know they won't go through him so they go to the outside and he has a problem with catching the gap of the fastest skaters actually (probably because of hip problems which affects his mobility) but it stills ends up in routine shots (for NHL goalies). Both Philips and Cowen are physical D-men who play the body, they get in the lane and box the perimeter. Obviously, they don't play like Karlsson, there's many styles in the NHL and for D-men, it's not Karlsson or bust. And for Phillips major blunders, he still literally "saves" as many goals on his goal line or with a stick at the last second. Also notice how his 2 major mistakes last year were related to a direct play with Spezza, the hardest predictable on the team and maybe on earth. The other thing that seems to influence people's opinion is the "pointing" thing, which is also another ridiculous thing to complain about. What people don't think about is that Phillips always has to play with new partners (since Volchenkov is gone) and most of the time, it is green rookies. Not easy to create instant chemistry and communication. The pointing thing is simply miscommunication. The Sens were disorganized in their zone last year and some forwards were cheating too much. Made D-men looked bad but it was not really an ability problem. Maybe I don't know anything about hockey though

But let's all bash Phillips, a guy who did so much for this team, wants to be here and took hometown discounts all his career. Simply because he is getting older, like we all do. And he still have a pretty tough task (teaching young guys, doing more than he should because of the lack of experience and money to fill the gaps) instead of being shelled on the 3rd pair of a veteran team all the way to a happy retirement. The fanbase is turning its back on Phillips and I find it disgusting.

So no, I don't think a guy who can't even stick 1 year with one team is better than Phillips. Gilroy is a journeyman depth guy, Phillips is a veteran that will play over 1200 NHL games, let's be real?

And Meszaros is overpaid at 4.125. Only thing he is better than Phillips is offensively, and even then, doesn't produce much more (career 0.38 vs 0.25, and his best pace was with Ottawa so it's less than that in the last few years)

To be fair. My gilroy>Phillips was meant to be humorous and emphasize that the game has passed Phillips by. At the rate he's gone down hill the last 3-4 years, we're in for a doozy.

I'm not a supporter of this "he's a good guy and does so much for the community that well keep him past his expirary date". He's supposed to be good defensively and has been getting worse and worse each year and his offensive game is non existent.

Its like having an offensive d whose not good defensively. So hes only useful offensively, but has gotten 52pts,39pts, 25 pts, 17 pts the last four years and he's getting old. Why would you keep that? We have a logjam. Give room to the young guys or something.

 

[StefanW]

I think they both suck by the way. I just think gilroy can skate. That's the only thing gilroy can do. Phillips is only good at pointing. Skating>pointing.

I wouldn't want either on my team obviously.

And that's how one regains credibility.

The whole Phillips pointing thing is one of the most embarrassing parts of Sens HF boards. In hockey communication is a big deal. Pointing and shouting to a D partner is a part of communication. It is important.

Focusing on Phillips pointing is like a football fan picking on a safety for yelling crack-back to a linebacker.

Anyway, bringing it back around to budget Phillips is on a very reasonable deal. He did not perform well on the PP or when placed in a 3/4 role, but he is perfectly fine as a 5/6 D who brings a bit of leadership and experience to the team. The contract is perfectly fair. The fact that the team has not gone out to get the top 4 D they have desperately needed for a couple of years now should in no way be a knock on Phillips. Players who are asked to play beyond their established roles and skill sets almost never perform well. The reality is that our team cannot afford to add a top 4 D either through trade or UFA, which means we have to sit, wait, and cross our fingers that our current D all develop up to potential.

 

[Micklebot]

The whole Phillips pointing thing is one of the most embarrassing parts of Sens HF boards. In hockey communication is a big deal. Pointing and shouting to a D partner is a part of communication. It is important.

Focusing on Phillips pointing is like a football fan picking on a safety for yelling crack-back to a linebacker.

Anyway, bringing it back around to budget Phillips is on a very reasonable deal. He did not perform well on the PP or when placed in a 3/4 role, but he is perfectly fine as a 5/6 D who brings a bit of leadership and experience to the team. The contract is perfectly fair. The fact that the team has not gone out to get the top 4 D they have desperately needed for a couple of years now should in no way be a knock on Phillips. Players who are asked to play beyond their established roles and skill sets almost never perform well. The reality is that our team cannot afford to add a top 4 D either through trade or UFA, which means we have to sit, wait, and cross our fingers that our current D all develop up to potential.

Messed up stat of the day:

On ice goals for per 60 among D:

NAME | GP | TOI/60 | P/60 | GF On/60
JAREDCOWEN | 68 | 0.15 | 5.95 | 17.85
JOECORVO | 25 | 2.07 | 2.32 | 8.12
ERICGRYBA | 57 | 0.13 | 0 | 8.02
CHRISPHILLIPS | 70 | 1.35 | 4.45 | 6.99
ERIKKARLSSON | 82 | 3.98 | 4.59 | 6.43
PATRICKWIERCIOCH | 53 | 2.69 | 5.05 | 6.31
MARCMETHOT | 75 | 0.57 | 4.19 | 4.19
CODYCECI | 49 | 1.42 | 0 | 2.58
MARKBOROWIECKI | 13 | 0.03 | 0 | 0

So, we can probably ignore Cowen and Gryba, because the samples are tiny, Corvo makes a bit of sense, and the small sample again makes you think it would have dropped given time, but Phillips has a good sized sample, and his on ice goals for and pts/60 are inline with Karlsson's.

Truth is, this is pretty meaningless, as Phillips spent 70% of his PP with Karlsson, but I just got a kick out of seeing all the defensive D topping the list...

Lets ride the numbers; #CowenGrybafor1stpairPP

 

[2XPRO31]

We will be spending a lot more money next season by resigning Ryan, Macarthur and Methot as well as guys like Zibanejad,Mark Stone, and Chiasson getting new contracts.

 

[The Fuhr*]

We will be spending a lot more money next season by resigning Ryan, Macarthur and Methot as well as guys like Zibanejad,Mark Stone, and Chiasson getting new contracts.

If the UFAs re-sign...

 

[Cosmix]

The overall thing... I can't take someone who says Gilroy > Phillips seriously. Better skating doesn't make someone better (and Phillips skating is still fine for NHL standards). This "Phillips is terrible" thing is probably the biggest over reaction I have seen on this site, and that says a lot. Sure, he isn't as mobile as before so he can't cut the angles as much. Result : the team gives up a lot of perimeter shots from the outside. Same thing with Cowen, players know they won't go through him so they go to the outside and he has a problem with catching the gap of the fastest skaters actually (probably because of hip problems which affects his mobility) but it stills ends up in routine shots (for NHL goalies). Both Philips and Cowen are physical D-men who play the body, they get in the lane and box the perimeter. Obviously, they don't play like Karlsson, there's many styles in the NHL and for D-men, it's not Karlsson or bust. And for Phillips major blunders, he still literally "saves" as many goals on his goal line or with a stick at the last second. Also notice how his 2 major mistakes last year were related to a direct play with Spezza, the hardest predictable on the team and maybe on earth. The other thing that seems to influence people's opinion is the "pointing" thing, which is also another ridiculous thing to complain about. What people don't think about is that Phillips always has to play with new partners (since Volchenkov is gone) and most of the time, it is green rookies. Not easy to create instant chemistry and communication. The pointing thing is simply miscommunication. The Sens were disorganized in their zone last year and some forwards were cheating too much. Made D-men looked bad but it was not really an ability problem. Maybe I don't know anything about hockey though

But let's all bash Phillips, a guy who did so much for this team, wants to be here and took hometown discounts all his career. Simply because he is getting older, like we all do. And he still have a pretty tough task (teaching young guys, doing more than he should because of the lack of experience and money to fill the gaps) instead of being shelled on the 3rd pair of a veteran team all the way to a happy retirement. The fanbase is turning its back on Phillips and I find it disgusting.

So no, I don't think a guy who can't even stick 1 year with one team is better than Phillips. Gilroy is a journeyman depth guy, Phillips is a veteran that will play over 1200 NHL games, let's be real?

And Meszaros is overpaid at 4.125. Only thing he is better than Phillips is offensively, and even then, doesn't produce much more (career 0.38 vs 0.25, and his best pace was with Ottawa so it's less than that in the last few years)

Phillips ain't what he used to be. He was a 3-4 defence man and now is a 5-6 defence man who was misused last year. Phillips is nearing the end of his career and does not deserve the hate he gets from some on this board. I don't mind him being on the team for another one or at the very most two years. After that, no thanks, we should be able to upgrade. I want to see Wiercioch gat more ice time next year. I know he is weaker defensively than Phillips but he has more offensive skill. I want to see him develop. Unfortunately, I think he might be traded as Maclean seems to lack confidence in him.

 

[StefanW]

If the UFAs re-sign...

Considering our internal budget there was never going to be a scenario where all the UFAs resign. Moving Spezza out solved a part of this problem, because his 7 MM or so in the next deal would have meant losing other players. I would assume Andy will not be re-signed, and he will be allowed to play out his deal and walk as a UFA at the end of the year. That pretty much makes the other UFAs affordable (barely), providing they want to stay.

 

[Cosmix]

If the UFAs re-sign...

I think Ryan, MacArthur and Methot will re-sign IF the Senators are willing to pay the going rate for comparables; however, there is some risk involved with Ryan who might ask for too much. We shall know soon, I think. Soon = before the next season starts.

 

[Cosmix]

Considering our internal budget there was never going to be a scenario where all the UFAs resign. Moving Spezza out solved a part of this problem, because his 7 MM or so in the next deal would have meant losing other players. I would assume Andy will not be re-signed, and he will be allowed to play out his deal and walk as a UFA at the end of the year. That pretty much makes the other UFAs affordable (barely), providing they want to stay.

Agreed. Moving Spezza created Budget Space!

 

[Xspyrit]

This is one of the best posts I've read on this site in a long time. Im not even sure what I can add to this, you cover pretty much everything!

I just find it sad how many in this fanbase have declared war on Phillips. THe guy can still play. Keep him on the bottom pair and he'll look great. It's not his fault that Cowen and Weircioch weren't able to raise their game last season, the coach was forced to play him more since the young guys struggled all year. He's the perfect kind of guy to play with a Ceci. LEad from within the lockerroom. A team needs vets around especially with the plethora of young talent around the Senators right now.

You know I'm not afraid to tell my opinions, popular or not. I just him we play Phillips on a proper role from now on (no PP, 3rd pairing, take a game off once in a while and major responsibility will be the PK). I still don't see what is so bad to have a career aging veteran on depth

The whole Phillips pointing thing is one of the most embarrassing parts of Sens HF boards. In hockey communication is a big deal. Pointing and shouting to a D partner is a part of communication. It is important.

Focusing on Phillips pointing is like a football fan picking on a safety for yelling crack-back to a linebacker.

Anyway, bringing it back around to budget Phillips is on a very reasonable deal. He did not perform well on the PP or when placed in a 3/4 role, but he is perfectly fine as a 5/6 D who brings a bit of leadership and experience to the team. The contract is perfectly fair. The fact that the team has not gone out to get the top 4 D they have desperately needed for a couple of years now should in no way be a knock on Phillips. Players who are asked to play beyond their established roles and skill sets almost never perform well. The reality is that our team cannot afford to add a top 4 D either through trade or UFA, which means we have to sit, wait, and cross our fingers that our current D all develop up to potential.

I saw Doughty point a lot. Do you think LA fanbase will turn on him as much when he will be over 35 y/o? Don't think so.

If Phillips makes 2.5 (average NHL salary with all ELCs and RFAs contracts), I don't care much, he deserve it as he took hometown discounts all the way.

Now if we had a clear cut #2 with the actual core, Phillips could still look great

Cowen-Karlsson
Methot-#2
Phillips-Ceci
Gryba or Wiercioch/Borowiecki/Claesson

Of course budget is making things hard for this team.

To be fair. My gilroy>Phillips was meant to be humorous and emphasize that the game has passed Phillips by. At the rate he's gone down hill the last 3-4 years, we're in for a doozy.

I'm not a supporter of this "he's a good guy and does so much for the community that well keep him past his expirary date". He's supposed to be good defensively and has been getting worse and worse each year and his offensive game is non existent.

Its like having an offensive d whose not good defensively. So hes only useful offensively, but has gotten 52pts,39pts, 25 pts, 17 pts the last four years and he's getting old. Why would you keep that? We have a logjam. Give room to the young guys or something.

For many reasons evaluated by the Sens staff that we don't know about. Glue in the locker room is important, as well as loyalty and sense of belonging, which is clearly a Phillips forte. There's also experience, work ethic, how to stay "even keeled" and teach the young guys how to be a pro... I hope he retires as a Senator and people in the crowd give him a damn big ovation, particularly after what happened with Alfie.

Considering our internal budget there was never going to be a scenario where all the UFAs resign. Moving Spezza out solved a part of this problem, because his 7 MM or so in the next deal would have meant losing other players. I would assume Andy will not be re-signed, and he will be allowed to play out his deal and walk as a UFA at the end of the year. That pretty much makes the other UFAs affordable (barely), providing they want to stay.

Which is why dealing Spezza for futures while trying to improve 2-way play (Legwand) might work out in our favor. Sucks to lose his skillset, but good thing to win that budget space because his next deal would have been around 7 millions per year as well. Different positions but in the end, was it Spezza or Ryan? Obviously, the team is banking on players like Turris, Zibanejad, Stone, Puempel, Lazar, Chiasson, Guptill to progress and eventually earn big money, but probably in a more affordale way than Spezza.