Proposal: Am I Not Hertley Enough For The Hertl Club?: S.J. + CAL

[TFHockey]

His agent would likely advise him to expand that list to include any team willing to drop fat stacks for an extension...

That is wishful think I believe. We always talk about guys waiving to play with McDavid or for more cash and very few actually come to Alberta. Most guys who play for any length of time in California tend to stay in California. I mean Joe Thornton went to Toronto but he did that at the tail end of his career to chase a cup. Hertl isn't in the same boat. I don't think we waives for either the Flames or the Oilers even if I really wish he would.

 

[TS Quint]

It depends...

If he's going to a team needing to reach the cap floor, the asking price might not be as stiff as it would to a team closer to the cap

A couple of 2nd rd picks seems reasonable...

Lucic has been better than expected with Calgary, and they aren't desperate for cap space, so they're not in a position to be gouged...

They aren't desperate for cap space as long as they want to continue being a non playoff team. They are short a lot of talent to be a competitive playoff team and that costs more money.

 

[banks]

I'm loving the new thread title pun trend. This one gets 5 stars!

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I like how Oilers fans are the ones that speak on our behalf on this site cause we have such a small fan base on HF

Lucic is a guy you keep in a rebuild. He’s the consummate professional. You don’t trade picks to get rid of him when we have a boatload of cap space next season... the Flames are not the team to be trading blue chip prospects/picks

 

[Double Dion]

What does the extended contract look like for Hertl?

Lucic and the 1st offset each other, if Lucic agrees to waive.

So basically two 2nds (the Florida one could be a very late 2nd as well) for an extended Hertl? I am guessing that is a big 'no' from the Sharks. I don't even think they would agree to that if you removed Lucic.

Depends where the pick is. This isn't the 16-24th pick the Flames usually have. It's a lottery pick. A lottery pick is more than enough for Hertl by itself. He's only eclipsed 50 points once. Heck, Backlund has more 50 point seasons.

 

[Double Dion]

I like how Oilers fans are the ones that speak on our behalf on this site cause we have such a small fan base on HF

Lucic is a guy you keep in a rebuild. He’s the consummate professional. You don’t trade picks to get rid of him when we have a boatload of cap space next season... the Flames are not the team to be trading blue chip prospects/picks

Agreed. It could well be we will be going full rebuild at some point soon. You don't move futures for the now in that scenario. Use the cap space from a Monahan trade and the space gained with Bennett, Ryan and Rittich to try again next year, but we shouldn't be moving top 60 picks or highly regarded prospects.

 

[WidgitRibbit]

Different players for sure, but you can’t compare Skinner to Hertl. 2 years ago Hertl was a 1C/W on a cup finalist, playing ~22 a night and being a force at both ends. Skinner is an inconsistent one-dimensional scoring winger, albeit a pretty good scorer when he’s on. I get that you’re exaggerating a bit for the sake of argument, but you’re sleeping on Hertl if u don’t think there’s 20+ teams that would line up to beat this offer for him

Im not even a fan of Skinner. What I’m trying to explain is the market and the value. We are seeing forwards going for far less than what the asking price on here is. Sure you can argue 20 teams would be in a bidding war for his services. But the market is saying contrary of 2 first rounders. And I’m even now reading unprotected firsts? Cmon now when does the argument stop of being silly when I’m showing comparisons

 

[Crosscrease14]

Trade is bad but title is great

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Im not even a fan of Skinner. What I’m trying to explain is the market and the value. We are seeing forwards going for far less than what the asking price on here is. Sure you can argue 20 teams would be in a bidding war for his services. But the market is saying contrary of 2 first rounders. And I’m even now reading unprotected firsts? Cmon now when does the argument stop of being silly when I’m showing comparisons

Your comparisons are crap.

 

[WidgitRibbit]

Depends where the pick is. This isn't the 16-24th pick the Flames usually have. It's a lottery pick. A lottery pick is more than enough for Hertl by itself. He's only eclipsed 50 points once. Heck, Backlund has more 50 point seasons.

Great post. I’m arguing basically this as well. A lottery pick unprotected is my evaluation also. And I’m reading another first rounder? No way for Hertl

 

[WidgitRibbit]

Your comparisons are crap.

Your evaluations are crap. And people are telling you the same as well which you don’t like to believe

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Your evaluations are crap. And people are telling you the same as well which you don’t like to believe

No they aren't and even if they did, they're using the same faulty logic that you are.

 

[GOilers88]

It doesn't make sense for the Oilers to give up assets for Hertl when they can just use their cap space on free-agents...

It makes perfect sense to trade assets for a player like Hertl.

What doesn't make sense is people always saying it doesn't make sense to waste assets when you can sign players for free

 

[WidgitRibbit]

No they aren't and even if they did, they're using the same faulty logic that you are.

Read 2 posts above me, the quoted post I did. You have one board member even saying a lottery pick is too much. But you want 2 first round picks for a player who only has one 50 point season under his belt on a winning playoff San Jose sharks squad during that timeframe

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Read 2 posts above me, the quoted post I did. You have one board member even saying a lottery pick is too much. But you want 2 first round picks for a player who only has one 50 point season under his belt on a winning playoff San Jose sharks squad.

Based on faulty assumptions. This sort of trade isn't happening until the offseason and it's not likely that any deal that involves Hertl going somewhere is going to include a 2021 1st nor would it be something that the Sharks would want. I also said that two 1st round picks was on the basis of the Sharks being asked to take Milan Lucic as part of the deal.

 

[WidgitRibbit]

Based on faulty assumptions. This sort of trade isn't happening until the offseason and it's not likely that any deal that involves Hertl going somewhere is going to include a 2021 1st nor would it be something that the Sharks would want. I also said that two 1st round picks was on the basis of the Sharks being asked to take Milan Lucic as part of the deal.

Taking on Lucic doesn’t offset the value of getting Hertl for 2 first round picks. And if you’re in agreement of them being unprotected is even more laughable like some suggestions here from members.

If you don’t like the Skinner argument. I can use another player as an example and continue down the list. Here’s Duchene

Conditional first-round pick (OTT), 2019 third-round pick (OTT), Shane Bowers and Andrew Hammond from Ottawa; 2018 second-round pick (NSH), Samuel Girard and Vladislav Kamenev from Nashville

Not even the first was unprotected. What makes you think Hertl is better than Duchene a 6 time 50+ point centerman.

 

[Sjsharks5]

So I guess under your assumption he’s the next Gretzky of the NHL cut and dry.

We just saw Jeff Skinner get traded for a prospect, a second and a sixth. I can pour out more players as well if you like. Jeff Skinners stats are almost the exact same as Hertl before he hit Buffalo.

So no, the value of Hertl is extremely off. And there’s homerism being played here

Skinner’s PPG over the last 3 seasons: 0.51
Hertl PPG over last 3 seasons: 0.84
Skinner prior to move to Buffalo: 0.67

Skinner getting health bombed on Buffalo this year, Hertl is generally touted as one of the handful of core leaders on the Sharks for the last several years. Hertl has shown a complete game, Skinner is commonly thought of as a 1 trick pony.

I’m not buying what you’re selling here.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Taking on Lucic doesn’t offset the value of getting Hertl for 2 first round picks. And if you’re in agreement of them being unprotected is even more laughable like some suggestions here from members.

If you don’t like the Skinner argument. I can use another player as an example and continue down the list. Here’s Duchene

Conditional first-round pick (OTT), 2019 third-round pick (OTT), Shane Bowers and Andrew Hammond from Ottawa; 2018 second-round pick (NSH), Samuel Girard and Vladislav Kamenev from Nashville

Not even the first was unprotected. What makes you think Hertl is better than Duchene a 6 time 50+ point centerman.

Sure it does. Hertl on his own requires a 1st and an additional asset that is the equivalent to a 2nd. You ask a team to take on Lucic's dead weight for two seasons at that rate, you are definitely going to have to compensate with additions. One such addition would be moving that 2nd equivalent to a 1st rounder.

As for Duchene, how exactly is he comparable to Hertl? Duchene was maligned a lot value-wise and doesn't have any sort of playoff track record that Hertl has. Duchene has never been a good possession player. Hertl has always been a good possession player. Duchene had 6 assists in 8 playoff games and wasn't very good in either brief playoff appearances. Outside of one playoff run in 2017, Hertl has shown he is consistently good in the playoffs and a difference maker. These are all things known by GM's.

 

[WidgitRibbit]

Sure it does. Hertl on his own requires a 1st and an additional asset that is the equivalent to a 2nd. You ask a team to take on Lucic's dead weight for two seasons at that rate, you are definitely going to have to compensate with additions. One such addition would be moving that 2nd equivalent to a 1st rounder.

As for Duchene, how exactly is he comparable to Hertl? Duchene was maligned a lot value-wise and doesn't have any sort of playoff track record that Hertl has. Duchene has never been a good possession player. Hertl has always been a good possession player. Duchene had 6 assists in 8 playoff games and wasn't very good in either brief playoff appearances. Outside of one playoff run in 2017, Hertl has shown he is consistently good in the playoffs and a difference maker. These are all things known by GM's.

We’re talking point totals here and being a forward with responsibilities of putting up points. If you’re comparing Hertl and Duchene on statistics there’s a wide gap margin between the two. We aren’t talking about playoffs. Let’s talk about your entire resume. Hertl has done NOTHING comparable to Skinners resume or Duchene. And you want 2 first round picks? Also unprotected? No the trade history of the NHL is speaking for itself of the answer being no with that asking price

 

[Pinkfloyd]

We’re talking point totals here and being a forward with responsibilities of putting up points. If you’re comparing Hertl and Duchene on statistics there’s a wide gap margin between the two. We aren’t talking about playoffs. Let’s talk about your entire resume. Hertl has done NOTHING comparable to Skinners resume or Duchene. And you want 2 first round picks? Also unprotected? No the trade history of the NHL is speaking for itself of the answer being no with that asking price

If you think point totals is the only thing that matters and that playoff resumes don't matter then you fundamentally don't understand trade value. Hertl has been a productive contributor to a playoff team's run on multiple occasions including a Finals appearance. Duchene and Skinner have done nothing close to that.

You also continue to misunderstand the want if you seriously go back to that. The two 1st round picks ask includes Milan Lucic being returned. I've already explained that to you and you continue to, what I can only interpret as, deliberately misrepresent things because your takes and comparisons have been trash.

Hertl is a more valuable player to playoff teams than Duchene and Skinner. Until you understand that reality, you will continue to trot out bad take after bad take because you fundamentally don't know how to evaluate players as it relates to playoff teams looking to add to their team's chances at winning.

 

[hohosaregood]

This went down the typical trade thread route pretty quickly.

OP:"Hertl's pretty good. Is this good enough?"
Response: "That's not enough. Maybe something like this"
OP: "Wow Hertl's trash, why would anybody pay that for him"

 

[Mattb124]

I am laughing at the "only hit 50 points once" crew.

 

[Perennial]

This went down the typical trade thread route pretty quickly.

OP:"Hertl's pretty good. Is this good enough?"
Response: "That's not enough. Maybe something like this"
OP: "Wow Hertl's trash, why would anybody pay that for him"

I never said Hertl was pretty good. I never asked if this was good enough. And I never called Hertl trash...

But, hey, thanks for contributing to the thread...