All-Time Draft #11, Part 3

[Nalyd Psycho]

There are two other Soviet dmen from that decade that should go in this draft, and two or three from the eighties.

Pretty sure I know at least some of them, and they are on my radar for my press box crew. But, Gennady was, with all my research, the best partner I could find for Hall. Ironically, Hajt was plan B.

 

[seventieslord]

- Rat Westwick is a marvelous pick. From what I gathered from last draft, he won't give you a lot offensively, but he was one hell of a competitor and a great PK'er. Anyone who put Rat Westwick on his 4th line will have a competitive edge. Why would I take Al Secord at 421 or John Ferguson at 427 when I can get Rat Westwick at 527?

Westwick should be able to contribute offensively. He was 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, and 8th in his league over the years. And this was before the days of "splinter leagues" - most of the top talent was in the AHAC, CAHL, FAHL, and ECAHA where he played. Some of the best were randomly scattered elsewhere, like Tommy Phillips.

As for his physicality, I think he's getting a lot of mileage out of the "rat" nickname as it makes you think of other players who were called that over the years. Ultimate Hockey calls him a fierce competitor but I have read the entire history of the Ottawa Organziation and they never wrote of him like that, saving those words for guys like Pulford, Smith, and McGee. I see him as a slippery, shifty scoring forward with some defensive ability.

Hossa's a terrific pick. Could somebody please explain to me how Mr. Inconsistency/Mr. Apathy/Mr. Non-factor (Kovalev) gets picked ahead of a guy like Hossa, who not only brings great offensive instincts, but takes good care of his own zone, and plays a good, but not overwhelming, physical game?

Victoria selects D Art Duncan

Superb pick.

Hossa's a classic example of what happens when a smart, gifted player is willing to work hard. Excerpts of his 1997 bio in THN's Draft Preview referred to him as a one-dimensional player who shied away from physical contact. In fact, scouts claimed they saw him deliberately avoid getting hit. Many said they wouldn't pick him. Following the 97 draft, the Ottawa Sun blasted the Sens for picking the soft Hossa over local product Matt Zultek, who had the size and speed that makes scouts drool, but lacked the other important pieces of his game.

Within three years, Ottawa fans knew that what they had in Hossa was a budding two-way star who wasn't afraid of physical contact at all.

There are still a couple scoring RWs out there better than Hossa. But he's good enough for a third scoring line, or even a two-way line or a moderately physical presence on the fourth line.

You said it. Hossa van do a little of everything in the ATD. He's physical; jsut not punishing.

Westwick was as tough as Secord and Ferguson. Secord was a better offensive player, Ferguson was the better fighter, but Westwick was the better competitor and beat both of them easily in term of playoffs prowess. When big games are on the line, I'll take Westwick over those two in any situation. Sorry to dish on your pick (I'll assume you selected Secord), they were just example I could of named 5-6 players in the same mold. It's not that Secord/Ferguson are bad picks, is that Westwick is an excellent selection and a stellar 4th liner.

I understand, but in my opinion, the difference between John Ferguson and Rat Westwick is like comparing Chris Chelios and Scott Stevens. Stevens might have been the more punishing hitter but that's beside the point: there's no situation or reason to select Scott Stevens ahead of Chris Chelios. That's my humble opinion.

You are right. These two always get selected far too close to eachother. this draft and the last are a nice change from the usual.

My biggest concern with Ferguson and Secord would be their skating, and whether they would have the hockey sense to overcome that. I'm not saying you need to be a great skater to succeed in the ATD. George Armstrong would be, at best, a below average skater in an ATD. But his top-notch hockey sense, instincts and anticipation, combined with his size and work ethic, more than overcome his skating deficiencies. (I have Chief Armstrong at No. 2 on my list for two-way line RWs).

But Secord and Ferguson's skating was, well, plodding, and their hockey sense wasn't great, either. Ferguson doesn't do it for me. I want all my forwards to be able to contribute offensively, and Ferguson just isn't capable of that. Decent skills. But outside of one year playing alongside Beliveau after expansion, there's nothing to give me reason to think that Ferguson could score at this level. As for Secord, love the combination of goal-scoring ability and toughness, but will he be able to keep up in his own zone with, say, Rocket Richard? Secord might be best served as a space-opener on a second or third scoring line.

I remember saying last draft that Ferguson is, in this context, a one-dimensional goon, the equivalent of a Boogaard in today's NHL. And yeah, everything you're saying about him is true. But, I should point out that he did have some goalscoring ability - he actually made the top-20 twice. You are right that a top-20 season alone isn't anything special (and it's not but as I said it can sure point out differences between players who otherwise look similar, remember Lanny and Markus?) but there were hundreds of players who played against Fergie who never placed that high, and thousands in history who didn't (Ron Francis, Trevor Linden, Kirk Muller, Slava Kozlov, Bobby Holik, Dale Hunter, Wayne Cashman, Keith Primeau, Alex Steen, Stan Smyl to name a few big names). This obviously also had a lot to do with his linemates, but he was must have been burying some chances.

You're still right about questioning Ferguson; I just wanted to correct what I said last draft.

 

[seventieslord]

Damn, with all those books you own it makes some good bio 70's!

Thanks!

It's a double-edged sword... when you have this many books, you end up looking in a lot of places to get more info on your guys and it takes up a lot of time.

But I'm just here to teach and learn so it's all good.

I admit I knew almost nothing about Harry Watson before this. The players I know most about are top-200 guys, plus the ones I draft, study and write bios on, and those I have had playoff series against. I'm hoping that after a few more drafts that includes almost all players ever.

 

[arrbez]

but there were hundreds of players who played against Fergie who never placed that high, and thousands in history who didn't (Ron Francis, Trevor Linden, Kirk Muller, Slava Kozlov, Bobby Holik, Dale Hunter, Wayne Cashman, Keith Primeau, Alex Steen, Stan Smyl to name a few big names). This obviously also had a lot to do with his linemates, but he was must have been burying some chances.

Hey now, no undrafted players. If Steen's rookie season is any indication, he should be an excellent 60+ point two-way centre for the Leafs for years to come...oh...wait...

 

[seventieslord]

Hey now, no undrafted players. If Steen's rookie season is any indication, he should be an excellent 60+ point two-way centre for the Leafs for years to come...oh...wait...

I have no idea why I did that.

 

[arrbez]

I have no idea why I did that.

You were probably thinking of the living legend he was trade for: Lee Stempniak

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Fergusson is a perfect example of how 11-20 finishes pre and post expansion aren't comparable.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Does anyone know what position Joe Hall played when he was a forward?

 

[arrbez]

Anyone wanna take a list?

 

[God Bless Canada]

Top 20 doesn't do much for me from an ATD perspective. Even for guys playing now. I look at top 10. Obviously, for scoring line guys, the more top five finishes, the better. I also want to know, as always, about the competition, not just from a quantity perspective, but moreso from a quality perspective. (Top 10 in goals in 57 might not seem like a big accomplishment, since it was a six-team league, but when Howe, Richard, Beliveau, Lindsay, Bathgate and Moore are in the top 10, that's pretty stiff competition).

Top 20 is impressive from the perspective of a guy was top 20 in goals or points, playing against the best players in the world. But from an ATD perspective, top 20 in goals multiple times doesn't get me gung-ho about a player's ability to produce at this level.

Harry Watson's second place finish in goals in 1949 is great. His ninth place finish in 53-54 is impressive. (Richard, Howe, Geoffrion and Lindsay were one, two, three and five, respectively, that year). Finishing tied for 19th in 52-53 does little to add to his legacy in my eyes.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Anyone wanna take a list?

I'll be awake for 3 or 4 more hours...

 

[arrbez]

I sent Nalyd my list,

adios

 

[shawnmullin]

This is an easy pick for me to make. I had him on my ATD 9 team and am thrilled to have him back for ATD 11. LW Dave Balon

From Legends of Hockey:

He won Cups with the Habs in 1965 and 1966 and led the league in playoff assists with the Minnesota North Stars in 1967. He returned to the Rangers the next year and played on a line with Walt Tkaczuk and xxxxxxxxxxxxxx. A high-scoring trio known as "The Bulldogs", Balon was assigned to check opposing stars such as Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull, and his savvy play garnered him one of the best plus-minus ratings in the league.

Balon could do it all until MS stole his career. Still underrated IMO and a perfect addition to a third line with Murray and Provost.

With this move we lock up our 12 starting fowards and go with three "scoring" lines with what we feel is a very balanced group.

But extra forwards could come into play depending on match up.

Gillies-Keon-Bossy
Krutov-Keats-Litzenberger
Balon-Murray-Provost
Simmer-Nilsson-Robert

To me our "fourth" line could be a second.

That's one look anyway

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

That is an interesting forward corps...

 

[shawnmullin]

I'm happy with interesting. Didn't want to do the same old.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm happy with interesting. Didn't want to do the same old.

That's always my policy. I was looking at your forwards and defence and was thinking, somethings missing. Then I saw you had a balls out awesome starting goalie and was like, yeah, that's fills in the blank.

 

[VanIslander]

What changed your mind on him? I thought last draft you said he was a completely nondescript player who'd be completely forgotten by now if not for old Buffalo fans.

For the record, I always liked him as the writers of The Hockey Compendiums are high on him. His adjusted +/- was frequently in the league leaders and for a guy who scored few points, that's excellent.

Not saying you're not allowed to learn more and change your mind on a guy, but just wondering what did it for you.

I would not have gotten him all by my lonesome but... my co-GM is Hockey Outsider. He's drafted Hajt a couple of times before and I couldn't convince him to go with another guy for the #6 slot, and THIS defense does need a non-PIM, boring steady eddie and Hajt brings that kind of stability. The Twins have two heavy minute superstar dmen in Lidstrom and Pronger, and two capable partners for them in Zubov and Suter, with Samuelsson on special assignment, meaning a #6 dman would get 6-8 minutes a game average at most. BTW... HO has a graphic breaking down ice time for the team he'll share with you guys at some point.

 

[VanIslander]

530 - camperjr - Edmonton Oilers - ON THE CLOCK (two hours remaining)

531 - Leopold Stotch - Boston Braves
532 - arrbez - Inglewood Jacks
533 - arrbez - Inglewood Jacks
534 - Leopold Stotch - Boston Braves
535 - camperjr - Edmonton Oilers
536 - shawnmullin & pappyline - Trail Smoke Eaters
537 - Hedberg - Victoria Salmon Kings
538 - ChampagneWishes - Killarney Country Bear Jamboree
539 - DoMakc & JohnFlyersFan - Kilkenny Bustards
540 - Jungosi - Wacken Warriors

 

[VanIslander]

I have to head out this weekend, and I don't have enough time to make a list, so just skipp my pick when it comes up. I'll make them up on Sunday.

does this still count?

it is the first pick after he posted it... but we took longer to get to it than he thought we might...

 

[Sturminator]

The Twins have two heavy minute superstar dmen in Lidstrom and Pronger, and two capable partners for them in Zubov and Suter, with Samuelsson on special assignment, meaning a #6 dman would get 6-8 minutes a game average at most. BTW... HO has a graphic breaking down ice time for the team he'll share with you guys at some point.

With Samuelsson and Hajt as the presumptive "5/6 defensemen", there appears to be a lack of puckmoving on the 3rd pairing. I'm curious to see this chart.

 

[VanIslander]

With Samuelsson and Hajt as the presumptive "5/6 defensemen", there appears to be a lack of puckmoving on the 3rd pairing. I'm curious to see this chart.

good point, normally, however... third pairing would NOT be a fair characterization of the roles of the #5 and #6 dmen on the Twins blueline

this team has an exceptional situation. both Lidstrom and Pronger regularly DOUBLE shift and they have proved time and again they can handle it, even in the playoffs, in the most intense games

so expect the third pairing to on one shift be Samuelsson and one of Lids/Prongs and the next time the third pairing goes it it'd be Hajt and the other of the Lids/Prongs

details will be announced once we settle on the #7 dman, which we're hashing out at the moment

 

[shawnmullin]

So if campr gets skipped we have arb's picks right?

I can stay up another hour potentially.

 

[shawnmullin]

is Nalyd here? If not, can I leave a list?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm here
Is Stoch's time up?

 

[shawnmullin]

No put I sent you my list, campr is out of time at 250