All-Time Draft #11, Part 3

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Jul 29, 2003
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Sorry for the skipped pick. I more or less passed out after the marathon game yesterday and when I woke up it was time to go to work. Also, the front page doesn't seem to be fully updated, so apologies if I pick a guy who's already gone.

Anyway, the Boston Braves select RW Mike Keane and G Mike Richter.
 

Kyle McMahon

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But not a legit 2nd liner? I think he is, but no one has the balls to do it... myself included. He's one of those guys, like Tony O, where, If I could be absolutely, 100% sure he'd fall to the XXXth spot, I'd strengthen the lineup in other spots and steal him there, and put him with strong playmaking wingers like Syd Howe, Olmstead, or Recchi. But you can just never be sure. He should have risen more than this, this time.

And I believe the guy you're referring to is undrafted. ;)

I agree that Bowie is hugely underated, I myself (and probably you as well) considered him one of the best 100-120 players of all time. I think the problem is the structure with which we build teams.

Most people aren't going to roll the dice on him as their top line center due to a lack of information. And in fairness, he's probably bottom end anyway, all challenge-era prejudices aside. Bowie would make a great second line center then, but if you've already got an all-time great offensive pivot on your top line (and most do), you may look towards a two-way player for your second line (as I did with Gilmour). I'm not really sure how good Bowie was in other aspects of the game, and neither are most other people so they'll go with a more known commodity. And he's not going to be on a third line as a checker obviously, which leaves the fourth line. Even then, somebody may be looking to fill a specific role with that spot. Bowie is miles better than Ken Linseman, but I wanted a shift disturber and the Rat was the best available, so I took him.
 

God Bless Canada

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I'm not concerned about where Gartner finished in the scoring race. If he finished 11th-20th a lot of times, great for him, but the bottom line is that as a coach, when you can pencil in a guy for 35-45 goals per season - a level he reached 13 times in 14 seasons - it's an incredibly reassuring feeling. Every coach in every league, ever, wants to have the guy on their team whose production levels are a sure thing, or at least as close to a sure thing as you can get. That's the perspective that I come from with Gartner.

As for Dave Balon - I think he's a terrific pick for a third or fourth line LW based on what he did. I'm a huge Balon fan (Murphy and I were the first to select him in an ATD), and when my third line boasts a guy who finished top 10 in goals three times, who had great speed, excellent hockey sense, strong defensive play and an aggressive physical play, I'm going to want him for the third or fourth line. (We would have picked him in 17 if we didn't get Lonsberry, and we would have picked him in the next round if he would have fallen to us). He was a bit of a late bloomer, and one of those guys who found a regular shift on a scoring line because of expansion. And he said that he was starting to feel the crippling effects of MS during his last big year in New York.

I don't know what he would have done if not for MS - he was 32 in his last big year with the Rangers. Even as the condition really started to affect his play, he had 23 goals and 47 points with the Rangers and the Canucks. Maybe he would have had several more 30-40 goal seasons. Or maybe he would have slowed down anyways due to age. But based on what he did, there's enough for him to be a solid two-way line forward or an outstanding grind line fourth line forward.

Hmmm, interesting. You rave about Mike Gartner's consistency, about how he was good for 30 goals every season. You said things like "with Gartner, you always knew what you were getting." When saying things like that, you ignored the fact that when Gartner had a season with 30-39 goals, he was not in the top-20, but apparently that is impressive anyway. Can you explain to us how that statement can be congruent with "Top 20 doesn't do much for me from an ATD perspective. Even for guys playing now."?

With Watson you always knew what you were getting. Just like Gartner. During his prime, he was always good for 18 goals, and in the 1940s and 50s, with 50-70 game seasons and miniscule scoring totals, that IS impressive. This is how Gartner got into the hall, and it's also how Watson got in. (being an important player on five cup winners obviously helped too) He didn't end up with the 9 top-20 seasons Gartner had, but he came pretty close. (as we established earlier, I concede it was about 20% easier to be top-20 multiple times for Watson as it was for Gartner so it's not as simple as saying it's 9 to 7) - You are simply not giving credit where it's due regarding Watson's consistency.

I know you like Dave Balon. What are your thoughts on him? I imagine it's something like, "Balon's 9th place finish in 1964 is great. And when he was 8th and 10th in 1969 and 1970, that was impressive. I don't care that he was never in the top-20 again because to be just in the top-20 would do little to add to his legacy in my eyes."

Like I said the first time I saw Doug Gilmour in a Habs jersey, sorry, but that's just wrong. Balon was top-10 three times and never top-20 again. Watson was top-10 twice and top-20 five more times, displaying much greater consistency. Who would you say would have a better likelihood of producing at this level?

If you don't like the Balon comparison because he played a while past expansion and I already said it's not perfectly apples to apples, (nothing against Balon, just a recent draftee who makes a good point) then how about a couple pre-expansion guys? Hec Kilrea for example. You might conclude he can score goals as well as Watson if you look at his two top-10 seasons. But the guy only had one more top-20 season. How about the undrafted fellow with the horsey name? Can he score as well as Watson? He was top-10 twice - never top-20 again. Pit Lepine and Sid Abel were three-time top-10 goalscorers. They each had one more top-20 season, for a total of four. Peirson, Northcott, Lach - three pre-expansion guys who had three top-10 seasons and made the top-20 just two more times for a total of five. That's getting more into Watson's territory now. These are great players and they still didn't show the sustained goalscoring ability Watson did. I'll say it again - You are simply not giving credit where it's due regarding Watson's consistency.

Henri Richard, Pat Lafontaine, Dean Prentice... they're not goalscorers! They just had two top-10 seasons. Let's forget that they were in the top-20 eight to eleven times each. Because that doesn't get you gung-ho about a player's ability to produce at this level.

Heck, why do any extra research on players at all? Everything we need to know about their stats can be found on their player page at hockey-reference.com!

You will always be loathe to admit it, but digging deeper into the top-20s is a useful way to separate the "fad" scorers from those who had real staying power.
 

God Bless Canada

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raleh and I had Bowie as our 13th forward in the 32-team ATD 9.

I don't have a concern with the lack of information available on Bowie. I think there's actually a fairly good amount of info available on him. By all accounts, he was a dangerous stick-handler and an aggressive player who wasn't afraid to play dirty. (Common traits for players who played pre-1929, before the forward pass was allowed in the offensive zone. Of course, Bowie's stick-handling and offensive flair were elite).

My first problem with Bowie is the lack of competition. He was steadfast in his desire to remain an amateur. Much like Bobby Jones in golf, it's an admirable effort. Unlike Jones, Bowie wasn't able to compete against the sport's best as an amateur. Far from it. His 234 goals in 80 games are a very eye-popping, attention-grabbing feat, but who did he do it against. And will people hold it against him that he averaged eight to 10 games per year?

As a centre for an offensive third line, with one winger who can set up Bowie or finish Bowie's chances, and another winger to open up room, Bowie would be great. As a first or second line offensive centre (a role Sather and ADC had him in for ATD 10), I'd be concerned.

I agree that Bowie is hugely underated, I myself (and probably you as well) considered him one of the best 100-120 players of all time. I think the problem is the structure with which we build teams.

Most people aren't going to roll the dice on him as their top line center due to a lack of information. And in fairness, he's probably bottom end anyway, all challenge-era prejudices aside. Bowie would make a great second line center then, but if you've already got an all-time great offensive pivot on your top line (and most do), you may look towards a two-way player for your second line (as I did with Gilmour). I'm not really sure how good Bowie was in other aspects of the game, and neither are most other people so they'll go with a more known commodity. And he's not going to be on a third line as a checker obviously, which leaves the fourth line. Even then, somebody may be looking to fill a specific role with that spot. Bowie is miles better than Ken Linseman, but I wanted a shift disturber and the Rat was the best available, so I took him.
 
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EagleBelfour

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I decided in the last two drafts to only select players I had clear evidence of their success, both with statistics and quotes. That's the main reason I didn't selected players like Mike Grant and Russell Bowie, who my guts tells me were fantastic players and should be selected way higher, but I don't have evidence of it.
 

seventieslord

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I'm not concerned about where Gartner finished in the scoring race. If he finished 11th-20th a lot of times, great for him, but the bottom line is that as a coach, when you can pencil in a guy for 35-45 goals per season - a level he reached 13 times in 14 seasons - it's an incredibly reassuring feeling. Every coach in every league, ever, wants to have the guy on their team whose production levels are a sure thing, or at least as close to a sure thing as you can get. That's the perspective that I come from with Gartner.

That's fine. So you're not necessarily concerned with how good he was - just how consistent.

What you're not acknowledging., is those 18- goal seasons that Watson kept putting up, were like scoring 30-35 in the 80-game, high scoring seasons of the 1980s.

the bottom line is that as a coach, when you can pencil in a guy for 16-26 goals per season - a level he reached 8 straight times - it's an incredibly reassuring feeling. Every coach in every league, ever, wants to have the guy on their team whose production levels are a sure thing, or at least as close to a sure thing as you can get. That's the perspective that I come from with Watson.

See what I mean?

Again - digging deeper into the top-20s is a useful way to separate the "fad" scorers from those who had real staying power.

As for Dave Balon - I think he's a terrific pick for a third or fourth line LW based on what he did. I'm a huge Balon fan (Murphy and I were the first to select him in an ATD), and when my third line boasts a guy who finished top 10 in goals three times, who had great speed, excellent hockey sense, strong defensive play and an aggressive physical play, I'm going to want him for the third or fourth line. (We would have picked him in 17 if we didn't get Lonsberry, and we would have picked him in the next round if he would have fallen to us). He was a bit of a late bloomer, and one of those guys who found a regular shift on a scoring line because of expansion. And he said that he was starting to feel the crippling effects of MS during his last big year in New York.

I don't know what he would have done if not for MS - he was 32 in his last big year with the Rangers. Even as the condition really started to affect his play, he had 23 goals and 47 points with the Rangers and the Canucks. Maybe he would have had several more 30-40 goal seasons. Or maybe he would have slowed down anyways due to age. But based on what he did, there's enough for him to be a solid two-way line forward or an outstanding grind line fourth line forward.

Fair enough. I have nothing against Balon being in this draft. He's got everything you want in a 3rd/4th liner. I was asking for a compare/contrast of his and Watson's goal-scoring abilities. He's an example of a player who had more "great" seasons but fewer than half as many "good" seasons as Watson, as far as goals are concerned.
 

Kyle McMahon

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My first problem with Bowie is the lack of competition. He was steadfast in his desire to remain an amateur. Much like Bobby Jones in golf, it's an admirable effort. Unlike Jones, Bowie wasn't able to compete against the sport's best as an amateur. Far from it. His 234 goals in 80 games are a very eye-popping, attention-grabbing feat, but who did he do it against. And will people hold it against him that he averaged eight to 10 games per year?

Whoa! Absolutely he was, this is a huge misconception. Bowie played his entire career in the CAHL/ECAHA, the highest caliber league in the Dominion. Back in those days, some players chose the remain amateurs and others decided to play professionally, but strangely enough they all competed in the same leagues with each other. Bowie won 5 scoring titles in his ten year career against the highest level of competition there was. He was not an amateur in the same sense that Hobey Baker, for example, was.

Says the Trail:

There are many who maintain that Russell Bowie was the greatest center ice player the game has known.

Practically every all-star team listed during that decade and for years aftereards had Bowie in the line-up.
 

seventieslord

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raleh and I had Bowie as our 13th forward in the 32-team ATD 9.

I don't have a concern with the lack of information available on Bowie. I think there's actually a fairly good amount of info available on him. By all accounts, he was a dangerous stick-handler and an aggressive player who wasn't afraid to play dirty. (Common traits for players who played pre-1929, before the forward pass was allowed in the offensive zone. Of course, Bowie's stick-handling and offensive flair were elite).

My first problem with Bowie is the lack of competition. He was steadfast in his desire to remain an amateur. Much like Bobby Jones in golf, it's an admirable effort. Unlike Jones, Bowie wasn't able to compete against the sport's best as an amateur. Far from it. His 234 goals in 80 games are a very eye-popping, attention-grabbing feat, but who did he do it against. And will people hold it against him that he averaged eight to 10 games per year?

As a centre for an offensive third line, with one winger who can set up Bowie or finish Bowie's chances, and another winger to open up room, Bowie would be great. As a first or second line offensive centre (a role Sather and ADC had him in for ATD 10), I'd be concerned.

Where did you read that Bowie had a dirty/mean streak? From all I've read, he was a sportsman through and through.

The info on him is definitely lacking. Putting together a bio similar to what I did for, say, Adams or Watson, would be impossible, even with the books I have. very few books have anything on him, and even fewer have anything unique on him. I'm thinking you may have him confused with someone else.

You also need not be concerned with the lack of competition. At the start of Bowie's career, all hockey was "amateur" - you know why I use quotations. Later on, some players and entire teams became openly professional, but they still all played in the same league. Like I said about Westwick last night, he was playing against most of the best players. Guys like Phillips were scattered elsewhere, but Bowie's league (CAHL 1899-1904, ECAHA 1905-1908) was always the best and contained most of the best players.

In 9 of his 10 seasons, he played in the league that controlled the cup. the one exception is one of the Silver Seven's seasons, 1905 as they moved to the new FAHL briefly. The FAHL (later, OPHL) was the only comparable league to Bowie's leagues, but still an inferior league that contained, at its best, two good teams - more often than not, one.

This isn't like a player in the 1910s or 1920s staying an amateur (like 4 undrafted HHOFers I can think of), choosing to stay in a lesser league; he stayed in the very best league and just chose not to be paid. It was 1909, the first season after Bowie left top-level hockey, that they finally removed the "A" from the league title and became the ECHA, making official what had been allowed for two years and wink-wink-nudge-nudged for a decade or more.
 

God Bless Canada

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Who was in that league? And how spread out was the talent at that time? How many of the game's elite players were in that league? It's one thing to say that it was the best league. But if the talent is heavily spread out over different leagues, then being the best isn't as impressive of a claim as you make it out to be. If the best players, or most of the best players, are in that league, then I'm impressed.

Whoa! Absolutely he was, this is a huge misconception. Bowie played his entire career in the CAHL/ECAHA, the highest caliber league in the Dominion. Back in those days, some players chose the remain amateurs and others decided to play professionally, but strangely enough they all competed in the same leagues with each other. Bowie won 5 scoring titles in his ten year career against the highest level of competition there was. He was not an amateur in the same sense that Hobey Baker, for example, was.

Says the Trail:
 

seventieslord

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Wow, what a treat I got in the mail today - the SIHR research journal. Tons of good articles this time, but what really caught my eye was a very detailed account of the 1914 Stanley Cup Final deciding game, as my player, Jack Marshall, played in this game and was said to be a star at age 37, according to The Trail.

I was impressed to read:

Toronto Star said:
Jack Marshall sailed up the side twice on succession
and almost scored

Toronto Star said:
Foyston spilled *****, and when he got up ******** flopped him. ***** tried to throw the puck into the nets. Then came the incident where ***** leaped on ********'s shoulders and rode him to the ice. ******** was just getting set to hand ***** a receipt when wise Marshall chased the Ginger Boy to the bench.

He also set up the cup-winner on a give-and-go with his defense partner, Harry Cameron:

Toronto Star said:
After seven minutes give-and-take, Cameron checked a Patrick rush, and gave Marshall the puck. Marshall made a rush, with Cameron trailing, passed it over to Cameron when he reached the defense, and Cameron laced it home, waist high. He made it 2-0.

The game ended 2-1. Marshall is credited with a goal and no assists in these playoffs. All assists from these years were compiled over the years by historians scouring the newspapers so this one must have been missed.

Seems Marshall was not just the wily veteran near the end when he starred in the 1914 playoffs at age 37 to win his 6th cup, a record that would stand for 45 years. He had a lot in the tank.
 
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seventieslord

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Who was in that league? And how spread out was the talent at that time? How many of the game's elite players were in that league? It's one thing to say that it was the best league. But if the talent is heavily spread out over different leagues, then being the best isn't as impressive of a claim as you make it out to be. If the best players, or most of the best players, are in that league, then I'm impressed.

Every single drafted player who played before 1910, played against Bowie for an extended period if the duration and timing of their career allowed it. Phillips, who was in the CAHL with him in 1903 and the ECAHA in 1908, is the exception.

Off the top of my head: Mike Grant, Frank McGee, Jack Marshall, Alf Smith, Harry Westwick, Blair Russell, Bruce Stuart, Hod Stuart, Moose Johnson, Frank & Lester Patrick, plus a good number of hall of famers, about five who will still be picked before the end of this draft, and about 7 more who will go fairly early in the MLD.
 

God Bless Canada

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You're trying to compare a guy who had 16-26 a year over an eight year span with a guy who, in the first 15 years of his career, never dipped below 33 goals, dipped below 35 twice, and set standards for consistency? You're talking your way into a corner.

I like Watson as a bottom-tier second line scoring winger or a strong scoring winger for a third line. Twenty-six goals in 60 games in 48-49 is a terrific total. Don't need to blow some adjusted for era statistical smoke to impress me with a 26 goal in 60 game campaign in 48-49. Four 20-goal seasons in the O6 era is also impressive, especially when you consider how tough scoring really was from 47-48 to 53-54. I don't know if 18 goals in 50-51 magically translates to 30-35 goals in 84-85, although I do understand how you come up with that.

But the bottom line is that in terms of consistency and peak goal scoring production, Gartner has a very sizable edge on Watson.

BTW, one thing that Gartner's detractors never give him credit for is that the guy is tied for fourth for the most 40-goal seasons ever with nine. Gretzky had 12. Mario and Dionne had 10. Then you have Gartner, Bossy and, I believe, one other player.

That's fine. So you're not necessarily concerned with how good he was - just how consistent.

What you're not acknowledging., is those 18- goal seasons that Watson kept putting up, were like scoring 30-35 in the 80-game, high scoring seasons of the 1980s.

the bottom line is that as a coach, when you can pencil in a guy for 16-26 goals per season - a level he reached 8 straight times - it's an incredibly reassuring feeling. Every coach in every league, ever, wants to have the guy on their team whose production levels are a sure thing, or at least as close to a sure thing as you can get. That's the perspective that I come from with Watson.

See what I mean?

Again - digging deeper into the top-20s is a useful way to separate the "fad" scorers from those who had real staying power.



Fair enough. I have nothing against Balon being in this draft. He's got everything you want in a 3rd/4th liner. I was asking for a compare/contrast of his and Watson's goal-scoring abilities. He's an example of a player who had more "great" seasons but fewer than half as many "good" seasons as Watson, as far as goals are concerned.
 

VanIslander

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540 - Jungosi - Wacken Warriors - ON THE CLOCK (45 minutes remaining)

541 - Zamboni Mania - Colorado Avalanche
542 - spitfire11 - Detroit Red Wings
543 - VanIslander & Hockey Outsider - Thunder Bay Twins
544 - Mr. Bugg - Kimberley Dynamiters
545 - papershoes - Kenora Thistles
546 - AlanHoff & Evil Sather - Dauphin Kings
547 - chaosrevolver & Boootthh - Team Soviet Union
548 - spitfire11 - Detroit Red Wings
 

seventieslord

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You're trying to compare a guy who had 16-26 a year over an eight year span with a guy who, in the first 15 years of his career, never dipped below 33 goals, dipped below 35 twice, and set standards for consistency? You're talking your way into a corner.

Gartner was more consistent. And whoever the Mike Gartner of Watson's time was, is assumedly long since selected. (Mosienko, maybe?) But Watson's consistency was at a level that approached that of someone like Gartner.

I don't need to compare Watson to Gartner to demonstrate how consistent he was. And it's not a 100% fair comparison as I already said. Gartner was only brought up to point out major contradictions in your ideologies, i.e. Gartner can score 33 goals and place 33rd in the league, and do it every year, and this defines his legacy, but when Harry Watson is 14th or 15th overall it does little to add to his legacy.

It wasn't my intention to compare Watson to a modern player. But in his own era, his consistency ranked among the best. Seven top-20 seasons is only one short of players like The Bentleys, Mosienko, and Kennedy, and just two short of Apps. It was one more than guys like Gaye Stewart, Sid Smith, and Milt Schmidt. These players placed higher on average when within the top-20, which is why they were selected long ago, but they had basically the same amount of "good or better" seasons as Watson, as far as goal-scoring is concerned. This is a fact. Not statistical smoke.

If it was not a great accomplishment, then more players would have done it.

I like Watson as a bottom-tier second line scoring winger or a strong scoring winger for a third line. Twenty-six goals in 60 games in 48-49 is a terrific total. Don't need to blow some adjusted for era statistical smoke to impress me with a 26 goal in 60 game campaign in 48-49.

Well, he's on our 4th line so we're doing pretty well.

And when I start talking adjusted stats or complex formulas, then you can start telling me I'm blowing "statistical smoke" We're talking in really simple terms right now - calling it statistical smoke only makes you look like a dinosaur.

Four 20-goal seasons in the O6 era is also impressive, especially when you consider how tough scoring really was from 47-48 to 53-54. I don't know if 18 goals in 50-51 magically translates to 30-35 goals in 84-85, although I do understand how you come up with that.

I really don't care to find out if 18 goals translates to 30-35 in 84/85 because I already told you I'm not an adjusted goals fan.

You say you understand where I'm coming from but you don't come close to actually demonstrating that you do. You're obsessed with flat totals like the 30 goals Gartner always scored or the 40 goals he scored 9 times like you say below.

Of course, when it suits you, you are happy to point out, "12 points was excellent for a defenseman back then!"

But the bottom line is that in terms of consistency and peak goal scoring production, Gartner has a very sizable edge on Watson.

In consistency, yes. In peak, how do you figure? Watson was 2nd in 1949. Gartner was 5th - once - and then was never higher than 8th again.

BTW, one thing that Gartner's detractors never give him credit for is that the guy is tied for fourth for the most 40-goal seasons ever with nine. Gretzky had 12. Mario and Dionne had 10. Then you have Gartner, Bossy and, I believe, one other player.

You're dismissing what I say with BS terms like "statistical smoke" when I try to put anything we discuss in here in context, and then you pump out effluent like this? Gimme a break.

Tell me, how on earth is any player who played the majority of his career before 1980 or after 1997 going to have a chance to post that many 40-goal seasons? So then how on earth is this valid at all? You may as well just say he had the 4th-most 40-goal seasons from 1980-2000 And why is 40 such a special number?

Answer: it isn't, it's an arbitrary cutoff.
 

nik jr

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You're trying to compare a guy who had 16-26 a year over an eight year span with a guy who, in the first 15 years of his career, never dipped below 33 goals, dipped below 35 twice, and set standards for consistency? You're talking your way into a corner.

I like Watson as a bottom-tier second line scoring winger or a strong scoring winger for a third line. Twenty-six goals in 60 games in 48-49 is a terrific total. Don't need to blow some adjusted for era statistical smoke to impress me with a 26 goal in 60 game campaign in 48-49. Four 20-goal seasons in the O6 era is also impressive, especially when you consider how tough scoring really was from 47-48 to 53-54. I don't know if 18 goals in 50-51 magically translates to 30-35 goals in 84-85, although I do understand how you come up with that.

But the bottom line is that in terms of consistency and peak goal scoring production, Gartner has a very sizable edge on Watson.

BTW, one thing that Gartner's detractors never give him credit for is that the guy is tied for fourth for the most 40-goal seasons ever with nine. Gretzky had 12. Mario and Dionne had 10. Then you have Gartner, Bossy and, I believe, one other player.

how are the bold parts not statistical smoke?
 

Spitfire11

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Ok, well Zamboni picked C Red Sullivan earlier (and he still has him listed on his roster page)

And I'm heading to sleep so here's my pick, D Barry Beck

"A huge defenceman who could shoot and handle the puck, Barry Beck was dominant at times in the NHL but was often slowed by injuries. He was able to join the rush and use his heavy shot from the point but his strength was playing the body in his own zone." -Legends
 

God Bless Canada

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You know you're losing an argument when you come up with arguments like this:

"Gartner can score 33 goals and place 33rd in the league, and do it every year, and this defines his legacy..."

As I've stated many times before, the top-20 thing does absolutely nothing for me. Not just for O6 players. For pre-O6. For post-expansion. I'm impressed that Watson finished top 10 in goals twice. I'm very impressed that he had 26 goals in 60 games in 48-49, and finished tied for second. I'm impressed that he had four 20-goal seasons from 1947-48 to 1953-54. But top 20 finishes don't do anything to convince me that a player is worthy of being selected in the ATD. From the sheer perspective of this is the greatest game in the world, and the NHL is its greatest league, a top 20 finish is fantastic. Multiple top 20 finishes are even better.

But from an ATD perspective, what impresses me the most is top 10 finishes in goals, assists and points, or doing things that are truly remarkable. What Gartner did was truly remarkable. I don't view what

I don't think Watson's consistency approaches that of Gartner's. Gartner's consistency got him in the HHOF on the first ballot. It earned him a place in the THN Top 100. There are very, very few players, ever, whose consistency rivals that of Gartner.

As for nine 40-goal seasons, you guys are right: it would be incredibly hard for players who played O6 to reach that level, and impossible for those who played pre-O6 to do it. (Bobby Hull did it eight times. Richard played in the toughest scoring part of the O6.) But look at Gartner's company. Gretzky. Lemieux. Dionne. Bossy. Look who didn't do it, guys like Kurri and Brett Hull.

Gartner was more consistent. And whoever the Mike Gartner of Watson's time was, is assumedly long since selected. (Mosienko, maybe?) But Watson's consistency was at a level that approached that of someone like Gartner.

I don't need to compare Watson to Gartner to demonstrate how consistent he was. And it's not a 100% fair comparison as I already said. Gartner was only brought up to point out major contradictions in your ideologies, i.e. Gartner can score 33 goals and place 33rd in the league, and do it every year, and this defines his legacy, but when Harry Watson is 14th or 15th overall it does little to add to his legacy.

It wasn't my intention to compare Watson to a modern player. But in his own era, his consistency ranked among the best. Seven top-20 seasons is only one short of players like The Bentleys, Mosienko, and Kennedy, and just two short of Apps. It was one more than guys like Gaye Stewart, Sid Smith, and Milt Schmidt. These players placed higher on average when within the top-20, which is why they were selected long ago, but they had basically the same amount of "good or better" seasons as Watson, as far as goal-scoring is concerned. This is a fact. Not statistical smoke.

If it was not a great accomplishment, then more players would have done it.



Well, he's on our 4th line so we're doing pretty well.

And when I start talking adjusted stats or complex formulas, then you can start telling me I'm blowing "statistical smoke" We're talking in really simple terms right now - calling it statistical smoke only makes you look like a dinosaur.



I really don't care to find out if 18 goals translates to 30-35 in 84/85 because I already told you I'm not an adjusted goals fan.

You say you understand where I'm coming from but you don't come close to actually demonstrating that you do. You're obsessed with flat totals like the 30 goals Gartner always scored or the 40 goals he scored 9 times like you say below.

Of course, when it suits you, you are happy to point out, "12 points was excellent for a defenseman back then!"



In consistency, yes. In peak, how do you figure? Watson was 2nd in 1949. Gartner was 5th - once - and then was never higher than 8th again.



You're dismissing what I say with BS terms like "statistical smoke" when I try to put anything we discuss in here in context, and then you pump out effluent like this? Gimme a break.

Tell me, how on earth is any player who played the majority of his career before 1980 or after 1997 going to have a chance to post that many 40-goal seasons? So then how on earth is this valid at all? You may as well just say he had the 4th-most 40-goal seasons from 1980-2000 And why is 40 such a special number?

Answer: it isn't, it's an arbitrary cutoff.
 

God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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Walter, Beck and Sullivan are all terrific picks.

Walter brings what I want in a fourth line forward. Good offensive ability. Solid defensive ability. Good competitive streak. Willingness to get involved physically. And outstanding character. One of the real good guys to play the game over the last 30 years.

We talked about Beck for our 5/6 spot. Former New Westminster Bruin, and there was a temptation to have an all New West third pairing with Greschner and Beck. Too bad Beck couldn't stay healthy. It really held his career back.

We had Sullivan as our fourth line centre last draft, and we talked about picking him this draft. Effective agitator. Plays tough. Excellent playmaker, too, with a top three finish in assists.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Feb 27, 2002
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Wit wait wait, GBC is using stats in his argument?

Honestly, I agree with GBC, scoring liners scoring outside the top 10 is pretty questionable in the ATD. That said, Mike Gartner's record of 1 5th place finish, 3 9th and a 10th place finish does make him a mediocre second liner. I'll take a guy like Bondra over a guy like Gartner 10 times out of 10.

Some fabulous picks today. Vote changing picks.
 
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