All-Time Draft #11, Part 3

[Sturminator]

This is an excellent point. Not just for Krutov, but in general. A lot of times players from the 80s and such will have their era held against them, yet players from older eras will have it used to elevate them. Not saying all eras should be considered equal or anything close to that, but, these types of things are aspects of those eras that get forgotten. For example, it'd be interesting to think how dominant Eddie Shore would be if his physical play had to be toned down a bit.

I also read once that Tony O(I think it was him) would stuff his pads before a game, and after the game, when they'd be checked, he'd take the stuffing out so they were legal. Thought that was kind of neat. But definitely another one of those things to think about.

The business about Tony O outright cheating is interesting, and I think it should be taken into account.

Your argument vis-a-vis the 80's confuses me. Scoring is relativized across the whole history of hockey and as the 80's are hockey's highest scoring era (besides very early hockey), of course players' raw numbers from that era will get adjusted. I don't consider this a punishment so much as I do perspective. A top-10 finish in the 80's is still a top-10 finish, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.

 

[seventieslord]

Moose had a reach of over 8 feet but his stick was only 6 feet long.

http://stickshack.com/Hockey-Stick-History.htm

I swear I read somewhere that he had a 99-inch stick. Can someone else confirm they read this at some point?

...and a woulda won the retro if it went pre-NHL Smythe. (I doubt anyone could logically deny Taylor's 8 goals in 3 games as playoff MVP.)

I can. Nighbor ended up with 4-6-10 to Taylor's 8-2-10 in those playoffs. The accounts of the games mention Nighbor as the star. It mentioned his checking was excellent, he combined offense and defense, and he confounded his opponents. I can't remember the exact wording but if you're interested you can check my roster page post where I always conveniently link to all my bio posts.

BTW, Jack Walker is a solid pick. I just don't know what to do with the guy - he's an elite defensive player (2nd best of his time, I think) and an elite playmaker (see my recent playmaking study) - I think his best use is as the playmaker of a combination shutdown/3rd scoring line. He'd need a winger like Provost but with those two I think you'd end up with a 3rd line with more offensive credibility than many second lines.

 

[seventieslord]

In a move that will surprise no one, the Regina Pats complete their third unit by selecting C Don Luce.

Now, what's EB up to, trading up to get ahead of our next two picks? I don't trust that sly old fox...

 

[John Flyers Fan]

The Killkenny Bustards select - LW - Henrik Zetterberg.

More than defensvely responsible ... Conn Smythe winner ... better than a ppg player over his last 5 nhl seasons.

Will fit in quite well with Francis and Hextall on our 2nd line.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I think Jungo will actually be able to announce his pick this time. (He's up now, right?)

 

[Hedberg]

I believe I have a trade with Hedberg, sorry to hold things up.

318 and 430 for

313 and 447

Confirmed

 

[Jungosi]

Wacken drafts Jim Schoenfeld

- Destroyed a Zamboni entrance while fighting Wayne Cashman
- Legendary for his words about Don Koharski
- Pretty good defenseman too

 

[seventieslord]

Wacken drafts Jim Schoenfeld

- Destroyed a Zamboni entrance while fighting Wayne Cashman
- Legendary for his words about Don Koharski
- Pretty good defenseman too

Jeez, is anyone I took last draft going to actually fall instead of rise?

 

[Spitfire11]

Detroit is pleased to add F Jack Walker to the team. The reason I traded down from 299 was because I didn't think Walker would be available, and I'm very glad to get him at this point.

-Conn Smythe winner in '25 according to both THN and http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml#winners as he led the Victoria Cougars to a Stanley Cup win over Morenz, Joliat, and the defending champion Canadiens.
-Also won Stanley Cups with the Toronto Blueshirts and Seattle Metropolitans in '14 and '17.
-3-time 1st team and 3-time 2nd team PCHA all-star
-One of the very best defensive forwards of his day, awarded 7 retro Selkes by Ultimate Hockey.


"This fine player is best remembered for his uncanny skill as a hook check artist and in this respect he was rival of Frank Nighbor

In the Stanley Cup series that followed with Canadiens, the famed line of Morenz, Joliat and Boucher found Walker and his hookcheck the stumbling block. The veteran broke up their attacks time after time and scored four goals in the series and the Cougars won the Cup.

This small clean-playing but aggressive player was on seven championship teams, in as many Cup series and three Stanley Cup winners." -Trail of the Stanley Cup


"Walker spent nine seasons in Seattle as the finest all-around talent on the West Coast. He helped win three league titles and twice won the Muldoon Trophy as league MVP...Walker was as good at poke-checking as Frank Nighbor was." -Ultimate Hockey

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I can. Nighbor ended up with 4-6-10 to Taylor's 8-2-10 in those playoffs. The accounts of the games mention Nighbor as the star. It mentioned his checking was excellent, he combined offense and defense, and he confounded his opponents. I can't remember the exact wording but if you're interested you can check my roster page post where I always conveniently link to all my bio posts.

And Bobby Clarke won the Smythe in '76. Oh, wait. No one scores 8 goals in 3 games and gets beaten for the Smythe by a guy with half that amount. Everything I've read said it was Vancouver's offensive dominance that completely overwhelmed the Senators.

 

[BM67]

I swear I read somewhere that he had a 99-inch stick. Can someone else confirm they read this at some point?

Johnson had a 99-inch REACH.

Also note that Moose was well retired before the stick length rule was introduced, so one would assume that there were a number of others of the era using very long sticks.

 

[seventieslord]

And Bobby Clarke won the Smythe in '76. Oh, wait. No one scores 8 goals in 3 games and gets beaten for the Smythe by a guy with half that amount. Everything I've read said it was Vancouver's offensive dominance that completely overwhelmed the Senators.

Clarke didn't win the cup that year, though, so I don't know that using him and Leach as a measuring stick for Smythe voting is the best method. I'm just going by the first hand accounts I read when I say this. If the numbers vastly contradicted what I read, then I would tend to agree that Taylor was the MVP. Keep in mind, also, that I have no agenda for or against Nighbor or Taylor in this draft.

You either win the smythe or you don't. It's too black and white. No one ever talks about smythe runner ups, or who came 3rd in Smythe voting... mainly because we don't know who these guys are. If we did, it would not only make for some greater discussion and analysis, but it would also help increase the legacies of some players who won no Smythe but were consistently great (Gilmour) or decrease the legacies of players who won a Smythe and are automatically branded heroes forever, even if they were arguably never a top-5 player in the playoffs again (C.Lemieux)

You should be satisfied with the fact that he had an excellent playoff and was almost certainly one of the two best players that year. Arguing about it will be futile. All we have are a few short quotes, goals, assists, and what we know about each player's defensive ability.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Clarke didn't win the cup that year, though, so I don't know that using him and Leach as a measuring stick for Smythe voting is the best method. I'm just going by the first hand accounts I read when I say this. If the numbers vastly contradicted what I read, then I would tend to agree that Taylor was the MVP. Keep in mind, also, that I have no agenda for or against Nighbor or Taylor in this draft.

You either win the smythe or you don't. It's too black and white. No one ever talks about smythe runner ups, or who came 3rd in Smythe voting... mainly because we don't know who these guys are. If we did, it would not only make for some greater discussion and analysis, but it would also help increase the legacies of some players who won no Smythe but were consistently great (Gilmour) or decrease the legacies of players who won a Smythe and are automatically branded heroes forever, even if they were arguably never a top-5 player in the playoffs again (C.Lemieux)

You should be satisfied with the fact that he had an excellent playoff and was almost certainly one of the two best players that year. Arguing about it will be futile. All we have are a few short quotes, goals, assists, and what we know about each player's defensive ability.

One could make the point that Claude Lemieux was a top five playoff player in both 1985-86 and borderline in 1996-97 in adddition to his Conn Smythe winning season.

I would also suggest that his 80 career playoff goals, ninth most in league history suggest that he was more than a one season playoff wonder.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

You should be satisfied with the fact that he had an excellent playoff and was almost certainly one of the two best players that year. Arguing about it will be futile. All we have are a few short quotes, goals, assists, and what we know about each player's defensive ability.

Fair enough.

 

[shawnmullin]

Sturm your hyperbole is ridiculous. That "not even an NHL player" still scored 34 points in 61 games when in the worst shape of his life. Was his declining play entirely because of this apparent steroid use issue or maybe because he was a fat pig that ate two hot dogs before and after every game. Is any of this painting him in a positive light? Certainly not. However, he's not the first player to let himself get badly out of shape for a season. You don't score goals like that against elite competition based on drugs alone. How many great athletes with amazing strength and athletitcism didn't have the hockey sense or touch to score?

 

[hfboardsuser]

So Zamboni Mania hasn't been on for almost two days. Anyone have an e-mail addy for him, as his profile doesn't accept e-mails?

 

[God Bless Canada]

One could make the point that Claude Lemieux was a top five playoff player in both 1985-86 and borderline in 1996-97 in adddition to his Conn Smythe winning season.

I would also suggest that his 80 career playoff goals, ninth most in league history suggest that he was more than a one season playoff wonder.

I think his 234 career post-season games is also in the top 10, and it does partially explain why he's ninth in career post-season games. But the fact that he scored so many goals, and played so many games, is, to me, evidence of Claude's big-game mentality.

He was a guy that good teams wanted to have. Look at what his arrival meant for Colorado in 1995. Lemieux and Roy were the two big arrivals for the Avs.

In spite of his faults - and trust me, Claude had his faults behind just the cheap shots and the dives and the injury faking - he knew how to deliver when the games really mattered. He knew how to elevate his game. And he was a guy that every contending team in the league wanted to have - one of the ultimate praises for a player.

 

[VanIslander]

Avs draft Bobby Bauer

 

[Hedberg]

Victoria selects D Terry Harper

1965 Stanley Cup Champion
1966 Stanley Cup Champion
1968 Stanley Cup Champion
1969 Stanley Cup Champion
1971 Stanley Cup Champion

Legends of Hockey:

Although he was not a flashy player, he was very effective in his own zone, ensuring the opposition forwards were kept at bay. Harper remained with the Habs for ten years, winning five Stanley Cup rings.

In 1974 the Canadiens traded Harper to the Los Angeles Kings, who were in desperate need of veteran leadership, both on the ice and off. Harper was given the captaincy and he guided the young team for two seasons before being sent to the Detroit Red Wings as part of a package deal, which saw Marcel Dionne move to the west coast. Harper remained with the Red Wing organization for four years before signing as a free agent with the St. Louis Blues in 1979. He finished his career at the age of 40 in 1980-81, playing 15 games with the Colorado Rockies.

 

[raleh]

Sturm your hyperbole is ridiculous. That "not even an NHL player" still scored 34 points in 61 games when in the worst shape of his life. Was his declining play entirely because of this apparent steroid use issue or maybe because he was a fat pig that ate two hot dogs before and after every game. Is any of this painting him in a positive light? Certainly not. However, he's not the first player to let himself get badly out of shape for a season. You don't score goals like that against elite competition based on drugs alone. How many great athletes with amazing strength and athletitcism didn't have the hockey sense or touch to score?

Exactly. Hockey, more than just about any sport I can think of, is a skill game. Steroids don't make you more skilled. They enable you to workout harder, which clearly Krutov was doing in the Soviet system. They can help you recover faster. You don't just swallow a magical pill and suddenly become a scoring machine. They just don't work that way.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

RW Bobby Rousseau.

 

[hfboardsuser]

Whew, I was scared this guy would go during the run on offensively talented LW/Cs with strong two-way games and playoff resumes

C Rick MacLeish

 

[Know Your Enemy]

If a player with incredible skill attains incredible stregth, their level of play will increase dramatically. If you use drugs to help your muscles work at better than peak performance, it will help in many aspects of your game: skating, shooting, driving to the net etc. All skill and no stregth = Kyle Wellwood
I don't think hockey is all about stregth, not even close, but it certainly helps.

 

[vancityluongo]

If a player with incredible skill attains incredible stregth, their level of play will increase dramatically. If you use drugs to help your muscles work at better than peak performance, it will help in many aspects of your game: skating, shooting, driving to the net etc. All skill and no stregth = Kyle Wellwood
I don't think hockey is all about stregth, not even close, but it certainly helps.

Agreed. You have to have that skillset in the first place, not to mention the ability to think the game and the desire to play.

If Wellwood took steroids, he'd be a beast, because he already thinks the game well, has soft hands, and seems to have a desire to win. If a certain talented but lazy big man in Calgary on the other hand juiced, I don't think the effects would be nearly as dramatic.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Whew, I was scared this guy would go during the run on offensively talented LW/Cs with strong two-way games and playoff resumes

C Rick MacLeish

MacLeish was exclusively a center. While he wasn't brutal defensively he wasn"t a great two way player. He also wasn't one that could be counted on to bring the intensity all the time.

Dcemcember in Vancouver or February against the North Stars, you aren't likely to notice him much .... but aganst the Soviets, or anyone come April or May and MacLeish will be a big time player. Excellent skater, and a great wrist shot.