All-Time Draft #11, Part 3

[camperjr]

Lets hope this one works, The Oilers pick, another 1972 Bruin Fred Stanfield

 

[arrbez]

Inglewood is pleased to select D Jimmy Watson and LW Dany Heatley.

Thanks for making my picks for me.

Jimmy Watson went a round or two later last time, but I had no problem taking him a little early, I just wanted to make sure I got him. I've been targeting Watson to be my #4 since the second round. He's a defensive ace who plays a tough, smart game. Despite playing for the Broadstreet Bullies, Watson was also an exceptionally clean player. He was good enough to play for team Canada in 1976 (on the greatest defense ever assembled), and he'll look great beside Chris Chelios on my shut-down pairing. Along with Chelios, Metz, and Klukay, he'll cement what should be a dominant penalty-kill as well.


I took Heatley now, because I figured he'd be going pretty soon considering a very similar player in Kovalchuk went 90 picks ago. Like Brett Hull, he has that magical ability to just appear out of nowhere in the right spot at the right time unchecked and bury chance after chance. He's a two-time allstar, 5 times top-10 in goals, and Canada's all-time leading international scorer. I think he'll really shine beside a dazzling, creative playmaker like Denis Savard.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Quick thoughts on recent picks from a Canuck fan who smells of cigar smoke...

*Krutov: We discussed him. raleh's a fan, I guess. I'm not. Maybe it's bad memories of 89-90. Maybe it's the juicing. As good as it gets, though, for a second line LW. The juicing does bug me, but I don't think he's the only player in the draft who juiced.

*Hunter: One of my guys. In terms of guys who belong on the fourth line, I think he's the best fourth line forward in the draft. 1,000 points. 3,000 PIMs. Outstanding leader. But he's one of the most polarizing players out there. A lot of people allow their opinions of him to cloud their evaluations. camper, I hope you're a fan of him, so that you can counter the arguments you're going to get against him.

*Drillon: One-trick pony goal scorer. But back-to-back seven-goal playoffs in the late 30s is pretty damn impressive. Is Elias the sturdy, reliable two-way winger to play with Hawerchuk and Drillon?

*Watson: We got him in the 14th round of the last ATD. I didn't think he would drop that far again. This is where he should be picked. The ATD's prototype for the steady-Eddie, No. 4, poised defensive defenceman.

*camper, a typo is no excuse for trying to get Bucyk at 300-something. When you try something like that, it's an unintentional shot at all of us. No way a gimmie for the top-100 like Bucyk, with all he brings to the table at LW, would ever be available at 300-something.

 

[shawnmullin]

The Trail Smoke Eaters are proud to add a legend of hockey's early years to center our second line, C Gordon "Duke" Keats.

Quoted from the Red Wings website:

Among hockey's all-time greats, Duke Keats is often overlooked because he spent so little of his career - a paltry 82 games - performing in the NHL. But his contemporaries knew that Keats was a name which should be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Gordie Howe, Wayne Gretzky and Howie Morenz.

"Gordon (Duke) Keats was the best player of all time," stated XXXX, a teammate of Keats with Edmonton of the Western Hockey League, where Keats once scored eight goals in a single game. "You would have thought he had a nail in the end of his stick, the way he could carry that puck around. He was that good."

[......]

"Duke is the possessor of more hockey grey matter than any man who ever played the game," noted Hall of Famer FXXXX XXXX. A fiery leader, once while playing for Toronto of the National Hockey Association during the 1916-17 season, Keats became so angered by the poor performance of goalie XXXXX that he strapped on the pads and took over in net himself for the next period.

So in addition to a guy who could score eight goals in a single game, we get a potential back-up goalie!

That gives us for the moment...

Gillies-Keon-Bossy
Krutov-Keats-Litzenberger

With Provost to anchor our third line.

I'm pretty happy with how those units have come together.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

*Drillon: One-trick pony goal scorer. But back-to-back seven-goal playoffs in the late 30s is pretty damn impressive. Is Elias the sturdy, reliable two-way winger to play with Hawerchuk and Drillon?

I don't know about the rest of the guys in the draft, but I sure believe he is. He's trained well and is can definitely be a defensive conscience with those two, IMO. Oh yeah, he can score a little, too. As for Drillon, one trick pony he may be, but he's quite fantastic at that trick. With Hawerchuk passing him the biscuit, he should he to unload that amazing shot of his at will. And I think he'll make my top powerplay units one of the best in the draft.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Anyway, with pick #307, the Boston Braves select one of my all-time favorites, RW Gordie Drillon.

Monsieur Gordon Arthur Drillon

Stanley Cup Champion (1942)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1938, 1939, 1940)
First All-Star Team Left Wing (1938, 1939)
Second All-Star Team Left Wing (1942)
Art Ross Trophy (1938)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (1938)
Maurice Richard Trophy (1938)
Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame (1975)


Top-5 Scoring (1st, 2nd, 4th)
Top-5 Goalscoring (1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th)
*0.95 Point per game in regular season*
Top-5 Playoff Scoring (1st, 2nd)
Top-5 Playoff Goalscoring (1st, 1st, 4th, 5th)
*0.82 Point per game in playoffs*
Calder Nomination (2nd)
Top-5 Hart Nomination (4th)
Top-5 Lady Bing Nomination (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th)

"I don't think there's a player in hockey who can shoot the puck more accurately, even if you leave him an opening the size of the puck, he'll hit it every time." - Turk Broda

- Drillon registered Five-20 goals season in his 7 years career
- He registered Five-40 points season in his 7 years career
- Gordie Drillon is the last Maple Leafs to win the Art Ross Trophy

Gord Drillon had a short but spectacular career in the National Hockey League playing mainly with the Toronto Maple Leafs. He was a first team all-star in 1938 and 1939, a second team all-star in 1942, and NHL scoring leader and Lady Byng Trophy winner in 1938. He played in the 1939 Babe Siebert Memorial Game and won a Stanley Cup with Toronto in 1941-42 when the Leafs made their legendary comeback against Detroit.

Drillon was a spectacular offensive player who arrived in Toronto just in time to replace the extremely popular Conacher. He was known as a deadly accurate shooter, able to exploit even the smallest opening.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gordie Drillon was #1 on my list for my RW spot. However, I felt he would be taken before my selection. He's definitely worthy of a selection right now, but I have a LONG list for that spot, so I felt I could wait.

Drillon couldn't backcheck to save is life, but he was money in the playoffs and one hell of a goalscorer. However, Drillon was a rebound, in the crease goalscorer. Elias and Hawerchuk will have to shoot the puck very often.

A tidbit that perhaps few know: Drillon was Dickie Moore childhood idol, so it would of been quite sweet to get them together on the same line.

 

[VanIslander]

Bossy does not backcheck: all he does is score (and skate faster than Drillon).

Elias does backcheck and is excellent positionally, realy good hockey sense and a hard worker, he fit into the New jersey system no problem and his getting the 'A' was more about him playing the defensively-responsible system than it was his playoff heroics.

Love Elias. He never falls to where I think he deserves to be picked so I've never drafted him. He almost fell to us this time. Ideally a regular season third liner in an all-time context, a playoff 2nd liner in a ATD context imo.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Bossy does not backcheck: all he does is score (and skate faster than Drillon).

Bossy was a better backchecker than drillon, quite easily. I don't understand why you compare Bossy to Drillon?

 

[God Bless Canada]

Bossy does not backcheck: all he does is score (and skate faster than Drillon).

Elias does backcheck and is excellent positionally, realy good hockey sense and a hard worker, he fit into the New jersey system no problem and his getting the 'A' was more about him playing the defensively-responsible system than it was his playoff heroics.

Love Elias. He never falls to where I think he deserves to be picked so I've never drafted him. He almost fell to us this time. Ideally a regular season third liner in an all-time context, a playoff 2nd liner in a ATD context imo.

I can buy into Elias as a mid-tier second line LW. Three full seasons (or close to full seasons) with at least a point-per-game. One half season over a point-per-game. And another season just under a point-per-game. A first-team all-star birth, a third place finish in the scoring race, and I thought he should have been a first-team all-star in 2004. His playoff record is impressive.

Do I think he has the physical presence that is needed to play with Hawerchuk and Drillon? I'm not convinced. I can think of at least one available LW who would be a better fit. But Elias is a very good defensive player, he's excellent along the boards, and he's very adept at setting up plays or finishing them.

This is about where he belongs.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Monsieur Gordon Arthur Drillon

Stanley Cup Champion (1942)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1938, 1939, 1940)
First All-Star Team Left Wing (1938, 1939)
Second All-Star Team Left Wing (1942)
Art Ross Trophy (1938)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (1938)
Maurice Richard Trophy (1938)
Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame (1975)


Top-5 Scoring (1st, 2nd, 4th)
Top-5 Goalscoring (1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th)
*0.95 Point per game in regular season*
Top-5 Playoff Scoring (1st, 2nd)
Top-5 Playoff Goalscoring (1st, 1st, 4th, 5th)
*0.82 Point per game in playoffs*
Calder Nomination (2nd)
Top-5 Hart Nomination (4th)
Top-5 Lady Bing Nomination (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th)

"I don't think there's a player in hockey who can shoot the puck more accurately, even if you leave him an opening the size of the puck, he'll hit it every time." - Turk Broda

- Drillon registered Five-20 goals season in his 7 years career
- He registered Five-40 points season in his 7 years career
- Gordie Drillon is the last Maple Leafs to win the Art Ross Trophy





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Gordie Drillon was #1 on my list for my RW spot. However, I felt he would be taken before my selection. He's definitely worthy of a selection right now, but I have a LONG list for that spot, so I felt I could wait.

Drillon couldn't backcheck to save is life, but he was money in the playoffs and one hell of a goalscorer. However, Drillon was a rebound, in the crease goalscorer. Elias and Hawerchuk will have to shoot the puck very often.

A tidbit that perhaps few know: Drillon was Dickie Moore childhood idol, so it would of been quite sweet to get them together on the same line.

Oh, I definitely knew that. I re-united them last year on my top line and made a similar comment.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I can buy into Elias as a mid-tier second line LW. Three full seasons (or close to full seasons) with at least a point-per-game. One half season over a point-per-game. And another season just under a point-per-game. A first-team all-star birth, a third place finish in the scoring race, and I thought he should have been a first-team all-star in 2004. His playoff record is impressive.

Do I think he has the physical presence that is needed to play with Hawerchuk and Drillon? I'm not convinced. I can think of at least one available LW who would be a better fit. But Elias is a very good defensive player, he's excellent along the boards, and he's very adept at setting up plays or finishing them.

This is about where he belongs.

I'm not all that worried about having a major physical presence. It crossed my mind numerous times, but I wanted simply a good defensive presence and backchecker on that line. Elias can bring that. I think Drillon, as a crease-crasher in a physical era, can handle the rough stuff, and I'm not worried about Hawerchuk's ability to do so, either.

Also, regarding Elias' offensive side, I really do think that being a Devil really stifled this guy. He had his best years under Robinson's system, which was definitely the most offensive of the coaches he's played under. The rest, though, have been heavy defensive systems which hindered his abilities. Some may scoff at this, but look at Scott Niedermayer. His career high as a Devil is 47 points, and the only season he hasn't topped that as a Duck was 07-08 when he waited around decided on whether or not to retire. The era's were different, yes, but also consider he played the prime years of his career in New Jersey, as opposed to starting his Duck career at 32. Also can't forget about 05-06 for Elias, where he almost scored 20 goals despite missing over half the season due to the hepatitus. Pretty impressive, I'd say.

 

[arrbez]

Also, regarding Elias' offensive side, I really do think that being a Devil really stifled this guy. He had his best years under Robinson's system, which was definitely the most offensive of the coaches he's played under. The rest, though, have been heavy defensive systems which hindered his abilities. Some may scoff at this, but look at Scott Niedermayer. His career high as a Devil is 47 points, and the only season he hasn't topped that as a Duck was 07-08 when he waited around decided on whether or not to retire. The era's were different, yes, but also consider he played the prime years of his career in New Jersey, as opposed to starting his Duck career at 32. Also can't forget about 05-06 for Elias, where he almost scored 20 goals despite missing over half the season due to the hepatitus. Pretty impressive, I'd say.

By the same token, he wouldn't be as good defensively if he wasn't in NJ. It works both ways in this case.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

By the same token, he wouldn't be as good defensively if he wasn't in NJ. It works both ways in this case.

While that is true, one thing is something you learn and the other is something you're usually born with. Elias learned how to play exceptional defense there, but if he was traded to, say, Pittsburgh, he probably wouldn't completely forget how to play defense and be absolutely useless in his own end(unless you think the system makes him look better than he actually is, which, I wholeheartedly disagree).

A good example of this is a certain Ducks forward with good bloodlines. He wasn't anything special defensively, but when he got traded to Anaheim in 03, he learned how to play exceptional defense in their trap system. Now they have a much more offensive system, but he's still there and still playing amazing defense.

 

[arrbez]

While that is true, one thing is something you learn and the other is something you're usually born with. Elias learned how to play exceptional defense there, but if he was traded to, say, Pittsburgh, he probably wouldn't completely forget how to play defense and be absolutely useless in his own end(unless you think the system makes him look better than he actually is, which, I wholeheartedly disagree).

Ok, but doesn't this just open the door to bestow extra offensive or defensive abilities on anyone, in the hypothetical situation of them being drafted by another team?

It's not like Elias played his whole career on the penalty kill or something. He's always had pretty solid linemates from what I recall, and it's not like the Devils are bottom-5 in league scoring every year. He's had some great scoring years, but he's somewhat inconsistent in that regard. From what I've seen of him, I'm not convinced he would be a perennial offensive superstar on another team. I think he's a good support player for a scoring line, but ideally as the 3rd best offensive player on the line.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Ok, but doesn't this just open the door to bestow extra offensive or defensive abilities on anyone, in the hypothetical situation of them being drafted by another team?

It's not like Elias played his whole career on the penalty kill or something. He's always had pretty solid linemates from what I recall, and it's not like the Devils are bottom-5 in league scoring every year. He's had some great scoring years, but he's somewhat inconsistent in that regard. From what I've seen of him, I'm not convinced he would be a perennial offensive superstar on another team. I think he's a good support player for a scoring line, but ideally as the 3rd best offensive player on the line.

I can't really disagree with that statement, but then again that's exactly what he is on my team. Third-best offensive weapon, with a very slick passer and a damn good goal-scorer. Can't complain one bit.

And I do think it's ok to bring up the heavy-defensive teams he's played on throughout his career to help my case for him. If I tried to argue he's a superstar that's fallen too far, then yeah, I'm completely wrong, but I kind of did that in case many try to assume he'll be too consumed playing defense with Hawerchuk and Drillon. Clearly, as he's done his whole career, he can put up points, even when playing heavy defense on those Devils teams. Also pointing out that his totals are a little more impressive considering he played for such a defense first team, and the Niedermayer analogy wasn't necessarily to point out how well he could do on another, more offensive team, but to show that NJ can be stifling for offensive players. I am a big believer that he would produce much more on another team, however, I do know, of course, that it doesn't matter much here.

 

[shawnmullin]

Where did that Bossy comment come from anyway? Drillon and Bossy are not exactly in the same league.

 

[Dreakmur]

Krutov is the only player in this thing that I would simply never draft, not because I think he was a poor sport, but because I think without the juice he's not an ATD calibre player, even on a 4th line. But that's all I'll say. I've no desire to duke it out. I guess this is the definition of polarizing. raleh thinks he's as good as any LW in the draft; I think he should go undrafted and should perhaps be eaten by ants.

Many of the drafted players have done things that wouldn't be allowed in today's game, but we can't hold that against them.
- Gordie Howe used his elbows and stick to create the room needed to excell offensively.
- Moose Johnson used a stick that was over 8 feet long.
- Tony Esposito put mesh webbing in his 5-hole and under his arms.
- Bobby Hull used a curve that was almost a right angle.

 

[Hedberg]

I know I'm on the clock, but I am waiting to hear back about a trade.

Sorry for the delay.

 

[Leaf Lander]

vanislander was just having a flash back to previous atds when i selected mike bossy

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Many of the drafted players have done things that wouldn't be allowed in today's game, but we can't hold that against them.
- Gordie Howe used his elbows and stick to create the room needed to excell offensively.
- Moose Johnson used a stick that was over 8 feet long.
- Tony Esposito put mesh webbing in his 5-hole and under his arms.
- Bobby Hull used a curve that was almost a right angle.

This is an excellent point. Not just for Krutov, but in general. A lot of times players from the 80s and such will have their era held against them, yet players from older eras will have it used to elevate them. Not saying all eras should be considered equal or anything close to that, but, these types of things are aspects of those eras that get forgotten. For example, it'd be interesting to think how dominant Eddie Shore would be if his physical play had to be toned down a bit.

I also read once that Tony O(I think it was him) would stuff his pads before a game, and after the game, when they'd be checked, he'd take the stuffing out so they were legal. Thought that was kind of neat. But definitely another one of those things to think about.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Thank you Spitfire, for announcing my picks.

Had a busy in an awesome way weekend and I knew internet time would be few and far between. Got my 1st choice for all three roles.

I'm putting Darragh on the counterattack five man unit: Gainey-MacKay-Darragh-Stevens-Taylor. He gives the unit a proven clutch goal scorer. Should make for a very effective unit. 2 Conn Smythes, 2 retro Smythes and a woulda won the retro if it went pre-NHL Smythe. (I doubt anyone could logically deny Taylor's 8 goals in 3 games as playoff MVP.)

Then McGee and Sloan will form the basis for an energy line that is also at a 2nd line skill level. Kind of like the Canucks line early this season that ended up playing 20 minutes a night until the coach realized the key players should simply be playing as top liners.

And Joe Hall is IMO the best 3rd pairing d-man available. His PIM problems mean his time has to be limited. But, he's an intimidating all-round presence with an underrated offensive game, giving us a right handed shot for the 1st PP unit.

 

[BM67]

Many of the drafted players have done things that wouldn't be allowed in today's game, but we can't hold that against them.
- Gordie Howe used his elbows and stick to create the room needed to excell offensively.
- Moose Johnson used a stick that was over 8 feet long.
- Tony Esposito put mesh webbing in his 5-hole and under his arms.
- Bobby Hull used a curve that was almost a right angle.

Moose had a reach of over 8 feet but his stick was only 6 feet long.

The history of the ice hockey stick has seen regulations in length. Ernie “Moose†Johnson, an All-Star winger and defenseman, supposedly used a hockey stick that was 75 inches long. Hockey sticks that were too long became interference in the rink. During the 1927-28 hockey season, the National Hockey League (NHL) made a new rule, requiring all sticks to be 63 inches in length or shorter.

http://stickshack.com/Hockey-Stick-History.htm

 

[DoMakc]

I think, Hedberg's time is up, so 70ies and VCL are on the clock

 

[Spitfire11]

I believe I have a trade with Hedberg, sorry to hold things up.

318 and 430 for

313 and 447

Detroit takes Foyston's old linemate, together they won 3 Cups with 3 different teams, F Jack Walker

 

[Sturminator]

Many of the drafted players have done things that wouldn't be allowed in today's game, but we can't hold that against them.
- Gordie Howe used his elbows and stick to create the room needed to excell offensively.
- Moose Johnson used a stick that was over 8 feet long.
- Tony Esposito put mesh webbing in his 5-hole and under his arms.
- Bobby Hull used a curve that was almost a right angle.

With the exception of Esposito, I was fully aware of all those things. Nevertheless, they do not compare to Krutov's use of steroids. Look, the guy was at the absolute peak of his athletic abilities before he came over to North America - 29 years old, coming off a season in which he was 2nd in league scoring and 5th in MVP voting, one year removed from being the leading scorer at the Olympics and two years removed from being Soviet MVP. And what happens? He ***** the bed completely. He's slow and weak as a kitten in Vancouver, not an NHL calibre scoringline player and not a contributor in any area but scoring.

Krutov was specifically known for his great strength. He was short, but incredibly strong, for reasons which are now abundantly clear. Take that strength away, and he is nothing. For god's sakes, he doesn't even have his nickname anymore without steroids. Would Gordie Howe or Eddie Shore have to tone it down a bit in an ATD league? Sure, but these are players who clearly had a lot going for them apart from the rough stuff (and frankly, I do penalize Shore a bit because of how often he got himself suspended and his bloated playoff PIMs). Without his roid-enhanced strength, Krutov wasn't even an NHL-calibre player, nevermind an ATD player. Honestly, comparing Gordie Howe's elbows to Vlad Krutov putting syringes in his ass is among the worst arguments I have ever heard on this forum.