Jimmy Watson was actually the 4th defenseman I drafted, but I guess Reise does have him beat in terms of allstar selections and such.
I'd say Reise is better. But if you wanted both you probably had to take them in the order that you did. Watson, as much as I like him, gets overrated a tad here. Reise is always a great value when selected.
I don't know if it's Top-3, but my Top-4 of:
Raymond Bourque
Alexander Ragulin
Jimmy Thomson
Gus Mortson
Should get some consideration, at least a honourable mention
Agree. If we added those to the "pack" Bourque would be on top and Mortson on the bottom, Ragulin around Laperriere/Conacher, and Thomson around Horner/Reise. Not too shabby! they'd fit right in.
Regarding Odie Cleghorn:
I think he is somewhat underrated around here, though the "six times top-5 goal scoring" claim (which is true) distorts the point. Twice (10-11 and 11-12) in the very early NHA days, Cleghorn finished exactly 5th in goal-scoring against a weak competitive field - totalling 54% and 66% of the league leader's goals in these seasons, a very wide 1-5 gap by any standards. Although I generally use pre-merger top-5 finishes as a rough equivalent to top-10's in the modern era, in the case of the NHA years before the big stars (Malone, Nighbor, Lalonde, etc.) got up and rolling, we need more granularity in our value assignments. Long story short, I do not consider Odie Cleghorn's 5th place goals finishes in 1910-11 and 1911-12 of equal value to a modern top-10. Perhaps top-20 value, but definitely not top-10.
I agree a top-10 pre-consolidation isn't worth the same as a top-10 after. (obviously) . However, one thing to remember about the 1911 season is that the NHA was, by far, the top league. The OPHL was the other and it was led by Oren Frood and Ezra Dumart. In 1912, of course, the PCHA sprang up and the NHA was forever a "conference" until consolidation. Discount 1912 if you like, and that is exactly why I am speaking in terms of top-5s and not top-10s, but considering the PCHA hadn't started yet, the only good reason to discount 1911 accomplishments is because Malone and Nighbor hadn't hit their strides yet (Lalonde absolutely had by then), and that's not exactly fair.
Cleghorn's other notable goalscoring finishes are 3rd (1916-17), 1st (1918-19), 5th (1921-22) and 4th (1922-23). In the case of the 3rd place finish in 1916-17, the rest of the field was so far behind the top two (Malone and Nighbor tied), that I think the value of Cleghorn's performance here is probably top-10ish, but not top-5. Similarly, I assign top-10 value to his 4th and 5th place finishes, but not top-5. The 1st place finish (tied with Lalonde) in 1918-19 then stands out as Cleghorn's professional high-water mark, with three other strong years (3 top-10 value goalscoring seasons) and a couple more good ones (2 top-20's for the 1910-11 and 1911-12 seasons). If you break it down, in terms of modern equivalency, here is how I see Odie Cleghorn's offensive resume:
- top-5 goalscoring finishes: 1
- top-10 goalscoring finishes: 4
- top-20 goalscoring finishes: 6
we're not that far off. But you're undercrediting him for 1911 and missing a few good seasons that add to Cleghorn's resume. Here are all nine of his good seasons:
1911: 20 goals, 5th in NHA. No one in the OPHL compares. Walsh and **** lead with 35 and 33. Cleghorn is far behind the leaders but he did outscore all but four players in the top league with no other league similar in talent in existence.
Top-5
1912: 23 goals, 5th in NHA. *****, Pitre, ******* lead with 35, 27, 27. The PCHA springs up. A fair assumption would be that of the top-10 scorers in hockey, five come from each league.
Top-10
1913: 18 goals, 9th in NHA. Malone and Smith led with 43 and 39. This is what you'd call a "
top-20" season.
1915: 21 goals, 7th in NHA. Pitre and Roberts led with 30 and 29. It would be a stretch to call this a top-10 season but it's definitely top-20. (it's worth noting that he was actually 4th in goals per game)
1917: 28 goals, 3rd in NHA. Nighbor and Malone lead with 41. Cleghorn is far behind the leaders but he did outscore all but two players in the top league. Over in the PCHA there is a logjam near the top. Considering how close they all are, I'd be inclined to put those players ahed of Odie. Still,
Top-10
1919: Led the NHL. Nuff said.
Top-2
1920: 20 goals, 8th in NHL. If you assume roughly 10 of the top-20 scorers are from the NHL and 10 from the PCHA, this is still a
top-20 season.
1922: 21 goals, 5th in NHL. By the same logic, this should be a
top-10 season when consolidation is assumed.
1923: 20 goals, 4th in NHL. again, a
top-10 season.
- Top-5 finishes: 2
- Top-10 finishes: 6
- Top-20 finishes: 9
I agree that it has to be all taken in context, and fully understand how a 4th/5th in a splinter league can become only a top-10 once you adjust (which I have done), but making two 5th place finishes merely top-20 takes that too far.
And although a top-20 is not very impressive on its own, especially in this era, I graded Cleghorn by the same standards as everyone else from his era, and Lalonde and Dunderdale only ended up with 11 top-20 seasons, MacKay had 10, Pitre and Darragh had 9, and Nighbor, Roberts, and Keats had 8.
Cleghorn outscored a ton of guys. When the consolidation era ended, he was 8th in big league goals.
Is that the profile of an ATD 2nd liner? Maybe. I think Cleghorn can definitely play on a 2nd line, but he's going to be fairly low-end in the role.
And that's fine with us. If there are 28 2nd line RWs, some of them have to be lower-end. We think he's a legit guy in that role, roughly 15th-18th among others at that spot. No matter how hard you try, you can't have a top-end guy at every position.
