It doesn't matter what Tavares/Sundin did. We're not talking about them. We're talking about Kessel. It doesn't matter what way you try and spin it, he produced 214 points in 212 games with a 2nd line winger and 3rd line center. He produced at a 60-65 point pace when he played with a career AHL'er and a 3rd line center in a sample size that's nowhere near as big as his best production, is that seriously your standard of judging players? Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Yet you seem so confident and cocky by posting stuff like "ignorant of the facts that prove I'm right is. " despite doing absolutely nothing to prove yourself right
All evidence points to Kessel NOT being a "complementary piece." The way he's elevated other player's games to entirely new levels indicates that he's an extremely talented player. We happen to be missing other essential pieces like a #1D, #1C etc... If you need to have your argument rely on a premise like him playing with a 3rd line center and a career AHL'er it only reaks of an extreme bias. You can try twisting the stats and narrative all you want to try and suit your opinion, but the facts simply do not help your opinion whatsoever.
Again, why do we need to assume Kessel's linemates are worse than 2nd line winger and 3rd line center in order to conclude that he's a 60-65 point player? You have to understand this kind of special pleading has absolutely no place in any reasonable debate.
It does matter, because we can compare Kessel to REAL top tier players, we can see he isn't one. And he is a complemntry player who only scored 212 points in 214 games becaus JVR and Lupul elevated him to that level.
There is no twisting going on, those are the stats. And arguing Kessel hasn't gotten a big boost from those 2 players is not reasonable debate. Its fact, go look up his game by game numbers in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 when Lupul was in and out of the line up.
As I recall, the numbers posted showed that Kessel benefited from playing with Lupul, but not as much as Lupul benefited from playing with Kessel. Seems logical. I believe those numbers also showed that Kessel is dragged down by Bozak, again logical.
You seem think that Kessel should produce the same no matter who he plays with. I'm not surprised you seem to be alone in that world.
If you are going to be critical of Lupul and JVR or give Kessel credit for their boost in production, then you HAVE to acknowledge that the reverse happened as well and be critical of Kessel and/or give Lupul/JVR credit for Kessel's PPG production.
And if the argument is Kessel is a top tier player -
"All evidence points to Kessel NOT being a "complementary piece." - then him not being a consistent producer regardless of who is playing with him is a big knock against that. Top tier players elevate others and aren't dependent on others. Look up Sundins stats, he didn't go up and down depending on who he was playing with. He dropped when he came to the Leafs, after that...Hoglund, Robergs, Renberg, Tucker, Blake, Mogilny......didn't matter.
Yup. It's a team game, not a vacuum. Good players produce better when they play with other good players. It seems to be such a shocking revelation that Kessel's production goes down when he's stuck with a career AHL'er.
But franchise players produce regardless. And if you're going to point out that Lupul and JVR get a boost from Kessel.......
No. This started up today because you seemed to take it personally that I said Kessel had developed the playmaking aspect of his game since his boston days.
Ridiculous. Prove the bolded. Oh wait, you can't. Because they're the only one's he's played with since his first three years. I guess my current roommates are the only people I could possibly live with, just because in the few isolated patches that they've subletted I've hated the strangers that replaced them.
Name me another player that either JVR or Lupul have risen to ppg with their magic beans.
I pointed out that you were ignoring a much more logical and statistically sound reason for the production increase then Kessel magically figured out play making on Feb 9th, 2011 (I believe).
I've posted the numbers. Compare kessel's production in 2009-2010, 2010-2011 before Lupul and 2011-2012 when Lupul was injuried (last 16 games) vs his production in 2010-2011 with Lupul, 2011-2012 with Lupul and the 2 years with JVR. That proves the "bolded"
Not everyone Kessel has played with got the same kind of boost, does that mean he doesn't have hte magic beans either?
