All Alfredsson Discussion

[LuckyPierre]

Jagr has real hardware, and accomplished a hell of a lot more in his career than Alfredsson has.

He or Selanne are the PERFECT examples of what Alfredsson should be getting paid.

So we're basing salary off of past accomplishments and pedigree?

Sweet. Then Alfie's captaincy now plays a role in negotiations. Bump it up another half million.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

but then people will see it's not just a huge FU. I'm personally not to mad at him like some people here i understand the change and even why people would want.

jut wait till your at a job for a long time(like 10 plus years) change is just something exciting when you get it into your head.

Im not angry at him either, he made his choice and he had every right to make it. I just dont expect him to throw out new information, he's going to say the same stuff that people have been speculating upon.

 

[Beville]

Jagr has real hardware, and accomplished a hell of a lot more in his career than Alfredsson has.

He or Selanne are the PERFECT examples of what Alfredsson should be getting paid.

You almost seem to contradict yourself... As Jagr has more, surely he should be paid more than Alfie no?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I truly wish Eugene would have just kept his mouth shut. His comments to the Citizen were not helpful. Rather, it just kept the pot boiling. What he should have said was, "We are sorry that Daniel left. We very much wanted to see him stay, but that's free agency in the NHL. We will always be grateful to him for what he did for our team and city. Now we are moving forward, and we believe this is the best young team Ottawa has seen in a long time. We are really excited about Bobby Ryan, Clarke McArthur, and our great core group. I wish camp started today."

But no - he had to take a shot at Alfie. Deserved or not, it just prolonged the soap opera. Dumb move, Euge...

Agreed.

I love the passion and fire Uncle Eugene brings to the team, but he really needs to pick his spots better. It was incredibly stupid to bring up Alfredsson again when the whole situation was finally starting to die down.

 

[BrawlFan]

From everything BankStreetParade has said its clear he either works for Melnyk or just simply is too young to remember what was spent during our "high spending days"

Let me put it this way. If in year one you make 100 million dollars and spend to the cap of 55 million, then in year 2 you make 120 million dollars and still spend 55 million when your allowed to spend 65 million - your a cheapskate or your banking the excess money. The cap has gone higher, the revenue sharing has increased, and we have gone into the playoffs for two consecutive years.

Like I said again, if you have some sort of proof that he has a history of spending more than this internal number that allows him to break even (worst case) or pocket the profit (playoffs) please show it. Otherwise saying "fact" before you post a meaningless sentance isnt fact.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Historically, dating back to 2006/07, we've never spent more than $58M on salaries. Often, we've dipped below $55M. And we've been competitive most years. I don't see that changing this year.

People are upset because Alfredsson isn't in the picture, but in terms of this team's situation going forward we're in a fine spot and this internal cap isn't hurting the team.

 

[BankStreetParade]

From everything BankStreetParade has said its clear he either works for Melnyk or just simply is too young to remember what was spent during our "high spending days"

Let me put it this way. If in year one you make 100 million dollars and spend to the cap of 55 million, then in year 2 you make 120 million dollars and still spend 55 million when your allowed to spend 65 million - your a cheapskate or your banking the excess money. The cap has gone higher, the revenue sharing has increased, and we have gone into the playoffs for two consecutive years.

Like I said again, if you have some sort of proof that he has a history of spending more than this internal number that allows him to break even (worst case) or pocket the profit (playoffs) please show it. Otherwise saying "fact" before you post a meaningless sentance isnt fact.

I'm going to really simplify this for you because it's clear you're having a bit of a hard time.

The cap is tied to league-wide revenue. What does this mean? Well, this means if the Ottawa Senators are making, for example, $75 million in revenue every year while the Toronto Maple Leafs are bringing in over $200 million, then the cap is set somewhere in the middle - an average of what both clubs are bringing in for revenues. The average of those two numbers is $137.5 million. So the cap is set according to the average - whether Ottawa makes $137.5 million in revenue is not accounted for in the ceiling, but there are measures in the floor to help bridge the gaps.

So, explain to me how it makes sense for a team with revenues that much lower than its' competitor to spend as if they are making the same as their competitor. It's a quick recipe for bankruptcy. And I doubt a billionaire who has spent his life establishing that he knows how to make money is going to just start torpedoing his investment worth hundreds of millions of dollars to satiate the whims of simple minded "fans" who can't understand that businesses fundamentally make money, not lose it. And that there's always going to be an imbalance in a system where all revenues are averaged rather than each entity assessed based on its own financial power.

The fact is this team used to spend to the cap. How on earth we could possibly be debating this is ridiculous. Spending to the cap hardly translates in to success. And if you're mad about the fact that a very rich person happens to make money off of the investment he made then clearly your beef is with the idea of wealth and how it's accumulated rather than the financial situation that this team is in.

Oh and if you want proof that the Sens aren't making money every year then here's the best thing anyone will be able to find short of WikiLeaks releasing a full ledger of the team's finances.

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

From everything BankStreetParade has said its clear he either works for Melnyk or just simply is too young to remember what was spent during our "high spending days"

Let me put it this way. If in year one you make 100 million dollars and spend to the cap of 55 million, then in year 2 you make 120 million dollars and still spend 55 million when your allowed to spend 65 million - your a cheapskate or your banking the excess money. The cap has gone higher, the revenue sharing has increased, and we have gone into the playoffs for two consecutive years.

Like I said again, if you have some sort of proof that he has a history of spending more than this internal number that allows him to break even (worst case) or pocket the profit (playoffs) please show it. Otherwise saying "fact" before you post a meaningless sentance isnt fact.

The main source of revenue in the NHL are ticket sales. The price of tickets in Ottawa has been relatively the same for several years. League wide revenue has increased, but the Senators revenues have not. So yes, financially, things are tighter now.

You have to remember, this lockout hurt. The arena was empty for a good portion of the lockout, but the expenses are still there. You still have to pay property taxes, hydro, maintenance, staff, etc.



And here's the big deal - as The Doctor mentioned on the previous page, if all goes according to plan and our young guys keep improving, our current roster will be a cap team in a few seasons. There's no sense blowing money now on rentals...all that does is Pejorative Slur the development of our young guys and cause cap problems down the road when we need to re-sign our core guys (not to mention disrupting the developing chemistry with a revolving door of rentals).

 

[BrawlFan]

I'm going to really simplify this for you because it's clear you're having a bit of a hard time.

The cap is tied to league-wide revenue. What does this mean? Well, this means if the Ottawa Senators are making, for example, $75 million in revenue every year while the Toronto Maple Leafs are bringing in over $200 million, then the cap is set somewhere in the middle - an average of what both clubs are bringing in for revenues. The average of those two numbers is $137.5 million. So the cap is set according to the average - whether Ottawa makes $137.5 million in revenue is not accounted for in the ceiling, but there are measures in the floor to help bridge the gaps.

So, explain to me how it makes sense for a team with revenues that much lower than its' competitor to spend as if they are making the same as their competitor. It's a quick recipe for bankruptcy. And I doubt a billionaire who has spent his life establishing that he knows how to make money is going to just start torpedoing his investment worth hundreds of millions of dollars to satiate the whims of simple minded "fans" who can't understand that businesses fundamentally make money, not lose it. And that there's always going to be an imbalance in a system where all revenues are averaged rather than each entity assessed based on its own financial power.

The fact is this team used to spend to the cap. How on earth we could possibly be debating this is ridiculous. Spending to the cap hardly translates in to success. And if you're mad about the fact that a very rich person happens to make money off of the investment he made then clearly your beef is with the idea of wealth and how it's accumulated rather than the financial situation that this team is in.

Oh and if you want proof that the Sens aren't making money every year then here's the best thing anyone will be able to find short of WikiLeaks releasing a full ledger of the team's finances.

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/

Point 1: about ticket sales. Your right, I'll give you that one

Point 2: Spending to the cap. We DID when the cap was around our internal budget. Now the cap has gone higher and Melnyk has made it that he either breaks even or makes a profit.

Point 3: Forbes Link. I am an auditor and I know that
a) operating income doesnt mean squat because a lot of creative things can happen in those organizational expenses. For example: Melnyk's salary can go up every year, a figure that could take a substantial portion of the revenue year to year and is signed off by whom? Melnyk himself. Payments to holding corporations can be made that are controlled by Melnyk in the barbados where taxes are low. So just because Melnyk whines a lot doesnt mean he isn't increasing a share in the revenue whenever he sees fit. There isn't proof of this either but for me going into the second round of the playoffs should increase our internal budget for the following year, if he wasnt taking money then all of that revenue should have increased our budget, no question.
b) I dont personally know what you thought you were showing me in that link because in 2012 it says we made 14.5 million dollars??? in profit....

 

[BrawlFan]

I just dont see how anyone can defend our team making 14.5 million dollars in profit last year and our internal budget not going up??? I just dont get it. WE MADE MONEY, WHERE DID IT GO?

 

[LuckyPierre]

Things that do not make Melnyk and the Senators organization look transparent and forthright throughout the 'internal budget' era:

-Attendance matching all time highs set post lockout. If we are filling the seats, what more are us fans to do?
-Three playoff rounds in the last two years. When we're exceeding expectations and making a run of it, while the team is on a shoestring budget nonetheless, what else needs to happen for us to be profitable?
-Going abead and financially backing a mediocre PGA golfer despite not having enough fiscal room to sign the team captain. I don't care how much or how little Fritsch receives, it's uncalled for if Melnyk is really as strapped as he says he is. Focus on the on-ice product for ****s sakes.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

I just dont see how anyone can defend our team making 14.5 million dollars in profit last year and our internal budget not going up??? I just dont get it. WE MADE MONEY, WHERE DID IT GO?

EM can distribute retained earning to ownership, namely himself, if god forbid he wanted to make some money off the team.

 

[BrawlFan]

EM can distribute retained earning to ownership, namely himself, if god forbid he wanted to make some money off the team.

Exactly. So he needs to shut his yap about how it "comes out of his pocket" or there are "substantial losses". He just thinks we can earn him some money year to year and doesnt see the need to actually make us competetive for the cup. How people stick up for him as a great owner I will never know, the only thing he has shown the last few years is his level of greed

 

[Iggy77]

The only concern us fans should have is that the current level of spending will be the cap floor very soon. Can this team keep up?

And historically cap floor do not win Cups, they don't even go far into the playoffs.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Point 2: Spending to the cap. We DID when the cap was around our internal budget. Now the cap has gone higher and Melnyk has made it that he either breaks even or makes a profit.

So you're either suggesting that the team used to have an internal budget that no body knew about or you're suggesting that Melnyk should purposefully run this team to a financial loss every year.

The first possibility is just ridiculous and you will never find any proof of it. The second possibility is completely ridiculous as businesses are there to make money. It also completely and totally disregards the central question in that case, a question literally no one on this board has been able to answer yet: who do you expect to spend the extra money on? Marginal free agents that barely improve on the position they're replacing and increase the per player spending average in to the realm of stupidity? Who are we supposed to spend the money on that's easily attainable? I can tell you we got Bobby Ryan, Clarke MacArthur and Joe Corvo in one off-season. We still have Jared Cowen to re-sign. In two years we have to re-sign Spezza, Ryan, Methot, Anderson, Zibanejad, Pageau (if he excels at the NHL level) and a number of prospects who may or may not be playing full time roles in the NHL. Do you think that money for all those players is going to magically appear out of thin air?

In case you didn't know, Bryan Murray's job isn't just to plan for the team this year, it's to plan for the team every year going forward for the foreseeable future. That's why smart hockey people aren't running armchair GM on hockey forums. They're making real life decisions and playing with big time consequences and millions of dollars when mistakes happen.

Point 3: Forbes Link. I am an auditor and I know that
a) operating income doesnt mean squat because a lot of creative things can happen in those organizational expenses. For example: Melnyk's salary can go up every year, a figure that could take a substantial portion of the revenue year to year and is signed off by whom? Melnyk himself. Payments to holding corporations can be made that are controlled by Melnyk in the barbados where taxes are low. So just because Melnyk whines a lot doesnt mean he isn't increasing a share in the revenue whenever he sees fit. There isn't proof of this either but for me going into the second round of the playoffs should increase our internal budget for the following year, if he wasnt taking money then all of that revenue should have increased our budget, no question.
b) I dont personally know what you thought you were showing me in that link because in 2012 it says we made 14.5 million dollars??? in profit....

What I showed you in that link was a team from 2004-2010 that was usually in the red with the exception of a lucrative run to the Finals in 2007. All years where the team was spending to the cap even when they didn't need to.

Also in case you didn't notice, Forbes estimates there was a debt value of 59% remaining on the original purchasing price of the team. So I'm not sure how you operate your personal finances, but I'm sure if you had a $100,000 a year job and you owed $250,000 in debt, you wouldn't get to the end of the year after all your expenses and say "Thank God I was able to make some money this year" and completely disregard your debt.

I don't know why it's such a shameful thing that the man make some money off his investment. I mean God forbid...

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

You guys are getting too hung up on the cap and not hung up on actual figures. In 2008, the Red Wings won the cup with a cap hit of $48.3M. In 2009, the Penguins won it with $56.6M in salary cap. It can be done in the general salary range we're spending. At the very least, we're competitive. If things turn south, I'll understand the complaints. In the meantime, why can't we enjoy what we have?

 

[BrawlFan]

So you're either suggesting that the team used to have an internal budget that no body knew about or you're suggesting that Melnyk should purposefully run this team to a financial loss every year.

The first possibility is just ridiculous and you will never find any proof of it. The second possibility is completely ridiculous as businesses are there to make money. It also completely and totally disregards the central question in that case, a question literally no one on this board has been able to answer yet: who do you expect to spend the extra money on? Marginal free agents that barely improve on the position they're replacing and increase the per player spending average in to the realm of stupidity? Who are we supposed to spend the money on that's easily attainable? I can tell you we got Bobby Ryan, Clarke MacArthur and Joe Corvo in one off-season. We still have Jared Cowen to re-sign. In two years we have to re-sign Spezza, Ryan, Methot, Anderson, Zibanejad, Pageau (if he excels at the NHL level) and a number of prospects who may or may not be playing full time roles in the NHL. Do you think that money for all those players is going to magically appear out of thin air?

In case you didn't know, Bryan Murray's job isn't just to plan for the team this year, it's to plan for the team every year going forward for the foreseeable future. That's why smart hockey people aren't running armchair GM on hockey forums. They're making real life decisions and playing with big time consequences and millions of dollars when mistakes happen.



What I showed you in that link was a team from 2004-2010 that was usually in the red with the exception of a lucrative run to the Finals in 2007. All years where the team was spending to the cap even when they didn't need to.

Also in case you didn't notice, Forbes estimates there was a debt value of 59% remaining on the original purchasing price of the team. So I'm not sure how you operate your personal finances, but I'm sure if you had a $100,000 a year job and you owed $250,000 in debt, you wouldn't get to the end of the year after all your expenses and say "Thank God I was able to make some money this year" and completely disregard your debt.

I don't know why it's such a shameful thing that the man make some money off his investment. I mean God forbid...

So much fail in this:

Where to spend the money? Alfie when he asks for 6 million. He asked for it and we should have given it to him and then traded for B Ryan and made a serious push. Got it pumpkin??

Spent to the cap? You win the technicality awards my man. Really what happened was we spent where Melnyk was comfortable with and he has continued to operate at that number.

Debt? The debt payments are already included in the expenses so the 14.5 million in profit goes where?

Thats all I want from you, answer me where the 14.5 million went, and if Melnyk banked it is he still a good owner or just plain greedy.

Riddle me this batman

 

[BrawlFan]

You guys are getting too hung up on the cap and not hung up on actual figures. In 2008, the Red Wings won the cup with a cap hit of $48.3M. In 2009, the Penguins won it with $56.6M in salary cap. It can be done in the general salary range we're spending. At the very least, we're competitive. If things turn south, I'll understand the complaints. In the meantime, why can't we enjoy what we have?

What was the cap in those years? Cap reflects how much a team can spend and player valuations. The higher that goes, a team can have more depth by spending more on players who help you win.

 

[Hossa18]

The main source of revenue in the NHL are ticket sales. The price of tickets in Ottawa has been relatively the same for several years. League wide revenue has increased, but the Senators revenues have not. So yes, financially, things are tighter now.

You have to remember, this lockout hurt. The arena was empty for a good portion of the lockout, but the expenses are still there. You still have to pay property taxes, hydro, maintenance, staff, etc.



And here's the big deal - as The Doctor mentioned on the previous page, if all goes according to plan and our young guys keep improving, our current roster will be a cap team in a few seasons. There's no sense blowing money now on rentals...all that does is Pejorative Slur the development of our young guys and cause cap problems down the road when we need to re-sign our core guys (not to mention disrupting the developing chemistry with a revolving door of rentals).

Let's also not forget that Ottawa fans also pay more parking fees due to the location of the arena than most other NHL cities and therefore Melnyk generates more income on parking than most likely any other city. You can pretty much add an extra $10 for at least 7000-8000 cars per game.

 

[aragorn]

It's Melnyk's team & he can do whatever he wants with whatever profits are made from this investment. If he decides to pocket the money or pay off debt he can do that. There is nothing that says he has to re-invest in the team, there is nothing that says he has to spend to the cap or create an internal budget that just meets the cap floor. He can do whatever he wants, it's his team whether we like what he is doing or not. What would you do if you were losing millions regardless of where it was bleeding from?

I think he only changes that if they have a legitimate shot at winning the Stanley Cup & no one thinks they are that close just yet or they start to lose money at the gate which I don't see happening anytime soon especially if the product on the ice is still relatively competitive. Melnyk either needs another revenue stream (Casino) or his pills have to take off & make him a ton of cash for him to change what he is doing now. IMO he will stay the course until a new revenue stream is achieved.

 

[Hossa18]

It's Melnyk's team & he can do whatever he wants with whatever profits are made from this investment. If he decides to pocket the money or pay off debt he can do that. There is nothing that says he has to re-invest in the team, there is nothing that says he has to spend to the cap or create an internal budget that just meets the cap floor. He can do whatever he wants, it's his team whether we like what he is doing or not. What would you do if you were losing millions regardless of where it was bleeding from?

I think he only changes that if they have a legitimate shot at winning the Stanley Cup & no one thinks they are that close just yet or they start to lose money at the gate which I don't see happening anytime soon especially if the product on the ice is still relatively competitive. Melnyk either needs another revenue stream (Casino) or his pills have to take off & make him a ton of cash for him to change what he is doing now. IMO he will stay the course until a new revenue stream is achieved.

Agreed, but at the same time you have to expect that your business of making money with your NHL team could suffer if the fans feel that you are not willing to spend money to provide a cup contending team. I am not saying to spend foolishly on any ufa but Alfredsson wasn't just any ufa and he could have spent an extra 2 million on him instead of signing MacArthur. I like the MacArthur signing and at this stage in their careers they are pretty much the same player but I would rather have a clutch playoff performer like Alfredsson for an extra 2m.

 

[Micklebot]

I just dont see how anyone can defend our team making 14.5 million dollars in profit last year and our internal budget not going up??? I just dont get it. WE MADE MONEY, WHERE DID IT GO?

I imagine part of that 14.5 goes to taxes and servicing debts. I doubt that eats up 14+mil but it's a start.

 

[Larionov]

Here's a purely hockey related question:

How many more years can Alfie cheat Father Time? He is now 40, and as we all know had a very solid, productive season and playoffs for us. He was still playing top six minutes, and delivering top six production, despite his age.

We all know, though, that the end comes eventually for every athlete, and when it comes, it comes fast and ugly. Older athletes are more prone to injury, and recover more slowly - that's just a fact. Further, this is the age when even the guys who hung around late have to walk away - Brett Hull, Doug Gilmour, Hasek, etc. In other sports, you think about Brett Favre staying one year too long in Minnesota, Michael Jordan's embarrassing comeback with the Washington Wizards, etc. Every once in a while, though, you find a Chelios or Selanne. It's rare, but it happens.

So, does Alfie have one more great season in him, or should he have walked away when he could at the end of this past season, still largely on top of his game? My fear is that it all goes sour in Detroit this year, and he ends his career as a healthy scratch or on the injury list. I have a feeling that he is really going to struggle there, and that his Detroit experience ends up being a stain on a great career.

 

[OttawaSenators11]

We need an owner who doesn't treat this a business, and is just a massive fan.

 

[Fandlauer]

Here's a purely hockey related question:

How many more years can Alfie cheat Father Time? He is now 40, and as we all know had a very solid, productive season and playoffs for us. He was still playing top six minutes, and delivering top six production, despite his age.

We all know, though, that the end comes eventually for every athlete, and when it comes, it comes fast and ugly. Older athletes are more prone to injury, and recover more slowly - that's just a fact. Further, this is the age when even the guys who hung around late have to walk away - Brett Hull, Doug Gilmour, Hasek, etc. In other sports, you think about Brett Favre staying one year too long in Minnesota, Michael Jordan's embarrassing comeback with the Washington Wizards, etc. Every once in a while, though, you find a Chelios or Selanne. It's rare, but it happens.

So, does Alfie have one more great season in him, or should he have walked away when he could at the end of this past season, still largely on top of his game? My fear is that it all goes sour in Detroit this year, and he ends his career as a healthy scratch or on the injury list. I have a feeling that he is really going to struggle there, and that his Detroit experience ends up being a stain on a great career.

Given Detroit is in our division, the bolded is the outcome I am hoping for. I really hope he is unable to perform up to his standards and he is a massive letdown for Detroit and their fans. He played well last year though, so I think over a full season and playoffs it could go either way for him.