News Article: Alex Burmistrov bitter that Olli Jokinen got more ice time with Winnipeg Jets

[garret9]

He already has more goals in the KHL this year then his 22 games in the AHL.
Sample size or not, that is telling too me.

Are your numbers telling me that the KHL is superior to the AHL?
I am not exactly sure how too read those.

The difference between the two when the KHL is a higher league right there should be telling you that there is likely problems with one (or IMO both) of those statistics in using it to evaluate Burmistrov's skill/decisions/efforts. That's due to sampling. Heck look at the diff between NHL and AHL. Burmistrov performed better in the NHL the year prior. If Scheifele did worse when sent back to jr than he did in the NHL, would we really not question the strength in evaluation of those results?

It's a simple concept and I've written on the subject before here. I think it's important for people to understand these things.

And yes.
When players can retain their point totals on average more moving from KHL than AHL than obviously the difficulty of the KHL is more akin to the NHL.

Recently Rob Vollman recalculated the NHLE (NHL equivalencies) are:
KHL .78
SEL .55
AHL .45
Cze .44
Swi .36
WCHA .42
H-E .33
Fin CCHA OHL .3
QMJHL WHL ECAC .25

 

[sully1410]

I'm of the exact opposite opinion. I can't envision the poster boys for the saying "we only want players that want to play here" ever welcoming back a player that left of his own volition, let alone one who upon his exit publicly questioned decisions made by his coach, questioned decisions made by management (regarding sending him to St. John's - that is a management call), and who also threw a teammate under the bus as well (Jokinen).

Allegedly. The source that was provided for this, not amazing. How do we know it was his own volition anyways? Given all the things that Burmi has said about the KHL tell me that this was much more of a group decision then the Jets org is letting on.

Obviously Chevy and co have their own questions about Noel, hell most of us do as well...hence the one year extension. If they had an infinite amount of confidence in him he would have been given a three-five year extension, imo anwyays. While noel has done somethings well, i can't help but think that some of his choices led to the Jets missing the playoffs, at least in part. Its no mystery that the two had their ****, but Noel said everything was fine between them...I'm not sure if I believe that.

He obviously didn't have to go to the AHL...and your going to tell me that his agent couldn't advise him to go to the KHL? If he didn't, he needs a new agent that actually knows the rules about this sort of thing. I don't buy that Burmi was tricked or coerced into playing in the AHL.

It all seems a bit too convenient to me and it has all lined up a bit to perfectly for me to buy this.

 

[videofarmer]

Recently Rob Vollman recalculated the NHLE (NHL equivalencies) are:
KHL .78
SEL .55
AHL .45
Cze .44
Swi .36
WCHA .42
H-E .33
Fin CCHA OHL .3
QMJHL WHL ECAC .25

That's very handy, Vito. Very interesting to see players moving from the Swedish Elite League at .55% production. Thanks!
Some of those leagues could combine for a pretty compelling European league. Or at least a European championship series.

 

[Zine]

He already has more goals in the KHL this year then his 22 games in the AHL.
Sample size or not, that is telling too me.

Are your numbers telling me that the KHL is superior to the AHL?
I am not exactly sure how too read those.

You realize the season doesn't start for another 3 weeks.

Right now most teams are giving juniors and 'try-out contract' players a look.

 

[King Woodballs]

You realize the season doesn't start for another 3 weeks.

Right now most teams are giving juniors and 'try-out contract' players a look.

And?

My point still stands.

 

[garret9]

And?

My point still stands.

That point is?

 

[scelaton]

I'm of the exact opposite opinion. I can't envision the poster boys for the saying "we only want players that want to play here" ever welcoming back a player that left of his own volition, let alone one who upon his exit publicly questioned decisions made by his coach, questioned decisions made by management (regarding sending him to St. John's - that is a management call), and who also threw a teammate under the bus as well (Jokinen).

Like you, I hold Burmi largely accountable for his behaviour and think it unlikely that he'll be back, but it's not out of the question. In the past year, Kane, Pavs and Buff have all said/done things that were dumb or embarrassing to TNSE. Granted, none have walked away from the team or implicated the coach in their actions, but my point is that all these kids are young, have done/said things they later regretted and have been given another chance. If (and it's a big if) Burmi kills it in the KHL over the next year or two, recants his negative comments (such as they were) toward the organization and wants to come back, Chevy might just open the door again. By that time Jokinen will be gone and Noel may or may not be around.

The difference between the two when the KHL is a higher league right there should be telling you that there is likely problems with one (or IMO both) of those statistics in using it to evaluate Burmistrov's skill/decisions/efforts. That's due to sampling.

I don't usually disagree with you as much as I have these last couple of days...but I'm starting to enjoy it!
I believe the difference may not be just in sampling but in 'fit'. Burmi's talents are extraordinarily well suited to the KHL and relatively poorly to the NHL/AHL... and the same goes for Stapes, to a lesser degree.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him thrive in the KHL...and agree that the best outcome for the Jets--whether we trade his rights or keep them--is for him to be enormously successful.

 

[Zine]

Allegedly. The source that was provided for this, not amazing. How do we know it was his own volition anyways? Given all the things that Burmi has said about the KHL tell me that this was much more of a group decision then the Jets org is letting on.

Obviously Chevy and co have their own questions about Noel, hell most of us do as well...hence the one year extension. If they had an infinite amount of confidence in him he would have been given a three-five year extension, imo anwyays. While noel has done somethings well, i can't help but think that some of his choices led to the Jets missing the playoffs, at least in part. Its no mystery that the two had their ****, but Noel said everything was fine between them...I'm not sure if I believe that.

He obviously didn't have to go to the AHL...and your going to tell me that his agent couldn't advise him to go to the KHL? If he didn't, he needs a new agent that actually knows the rules about this sort of thing. I don't buy that Burmi was tricked or coerced into playing in the AHL.

It all seems a bit too convenient to me and it has all lined up a bit to perfectly for me to buy this.

With the existence of the 'Russian factor', prospects are almost forced to badmouth the KHL just to gain the confidence of GMs. Burmistrov alluded to something like this a few years ago.

Anyhow, regarding the lockout, Burmistrov was at the mercy of the Jets. Had he gone to KHL (without Jets consent) he'd be in breach of contract.

 

[Positive]

What sticks with me most on his exit, is all the kind words that Burmi had to say about the fans, the hockey-mad environment in the arena and the city, how great the rest of the team was, and the good things about the organization.

No wait, he didn't say any of that. The vibe I get is that he endured it here but wanted to go home. Let's end the one-sided love affair, folks.

 

[sully1410]

With the existence of the 'Russian factor', prospects are almost forced to badmouth the KHL just to gain the confidence of GMs. Burmistrov alluded to something like this a few years ago.

Anyhow, regarding the lockout, Burmistrov was at the mercy of the Jets. Had he gone to KHL (without Jets consent) he'd be in breach of contract.

Just like every other player that went to the K, right?

i'm not entirely sure what you trying to get across here. Burmi has said many times that he didn't want to play in the KHL, and if he truly did want to play there and had been lying to everybody in the process...he would have gone during the lockout contract be damned. Hell, a lot of other people did it, why not Burmi? then there was a report that he wanted to be traded at the deadline, but then said afterwards that he was happy that he wasn't traded.

Which is it?

If you read between the lines, it makes a ton of sense. What doesn't make sense is all the crap in between that the media has "dug up". Especially the media that has reported that a ton of jets players didn't want to be here, but all signed long term deals. Also reported buff to be a svelte 302lbs after the season, and said he gained forty pounds...when that is truly physically impossible.

The media lies to create a story. the players lie to get GM's to draft them. GM's and coaches lie about issues with players. Everybody lies, but somebody here is telling the honest truth and I would imagine that to be Burmi, as he stands to gain the least by lying.

 

[sully1410]

What sticks with me most on his exit, is all the kind words that Burmi had to say about the fans, the hockey-mad environment in the arena and the city, how great the rest of the team was, and the good things about the organization.

No wait, he didn't say any of that. The vibe I get is that he endured it here but wanted to go home. Let's end the one-sided love affair, folks.

Yes...but he didn't say anything negative either. Except to some obscure russian news paper...apparently.

 

[Duke749]

What sticks with me most on his exit, is all the kind words that Burmi had to say about the fans, the hockey-mad environment in the arena and the city, how great the rest of the team was, and the good things about the organization.

No wait, he didn't say any of that. The vibe I get is that he endured it here but wanted to go home. Let's end the one-sided love affair, folks.

I don't think he wanted to go home, I just think he was tired of being around Noel and heading to the KHL was the easiest and familiar option.

 

[garret9]

I don't usually disagree with you as much as I have these last couple of days...but I'm starting to enjoy it!
I believe the difference may not be just in sampling but in 'fit'. Burmi's talents are extraordinarily well suited to the KHL and relatively poorly to the NHL/AHL... and the same goes for Stapes, to a lesser degree.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him thrive in the KHL...and agree that the best outcome for the Jets--whether we trade his rights or keep them--is for him to be enormously successful.

I don't know... Even if it's fit in system there is only so much it can affect him.

The fact that his AHL production (while he was leading the team) was worse than his NHL production and his KHL is currently a pt/gp makes me very confident on-ice sh% are just highly deflated in one and inflated in the other. In time this tends to regress to the mean, due to probabilities.

Yes I'm sure he and Stapleton fit the style and rink size in the KHL a little better and it is a factor but that can only go so far, especially offensively. Sorry that I tend to talk about the predominate factor as if it is the only factor and that is my own fault at improperly communicating.

Stapleton never had issues scoring at top6 rates and so I'm pretty confident his production increase is predominately due to an increase of ice time (KHL doesn't give icetime so I can only estimate this using his NHL icetime and what line he's on in the KHL). Stapleton's issue in the NHL was that even when mostly lining up against 3rd/4th liners he was a huge defensive liability mostly due to size and strength (well lack thereof), and he didn't have elite offensive abilities to make up for it. Over at the KHL this is mitigated as the defensive systems are significantly different and also his offensive production is greater relative to league average.



TL;DR version:
I'm sure style/fit/rink/system is a factor, but I don't think it can be significant enough given how vast the differences are, especially since we're trying to compare Burmistrov's AHL and KHL production, not his NHL and KHL production.



The real point in the end is we need to stop talking about Burmi's AHL black mark as the measuring stick of his abilities when it was relatively lower than his NHL production and also that he was one of the top players in production at the time.
Like I said: if Scheifele put up let's say a 0.6 pts/gp in the NHL and then went to CHL and put up a 0.5 pts/gp... we'd probably scratch our heads and try to figure out which one (if either) is more true to the persons talents and indication of how they performed. When using statistics to evaluate a persons performance it is crucial to keep contextual evidence in mind.

 

[scelaton]

I don't know... Even if it's fit in system there is only so much it can affect him.

The fact that his AHL production (while he was leading the team) was worse than his NHL production and his KHL is currently a pt/gp makes me very confident on-ice sh% are just highly deflated in one and inflated in the other. In time this tends to regress to the mean, due to probabilities.

Yes I'm sure he and Stapleton fit the style and rink size in the KHL a little better and it is a factor but that can only go so far, especially offensively. Sorry that I tend to talk about the predominate factor as if it is the only factor and that is my own fault at improperly communicating.

TL;DR version:
I'm sure style/fit/rink/system is a factor, but I don't think it can be significant enough given how vast the differences are, especially since we're trying to compare Burmistrov's AHL and KHL production, not his NHL and KHL production.

No need to be sorry--your statistical acumen is invaluable and we all know that is your predominant frame of reference....I was just kiddin' ya.
As for Burmi, I am sure that he will regress over time from his torrid pace of the last 2 games, but it will be fascinating to see where he ends up this year. I am predicting he will do very well for a number of reasons--natural progression, more ice time, more compatible rink and system, general happiness and having a lot to prove to his friends and county men...not to mention the bad guys in Wpg who didn't give him a chance to strut his stuff.

 

[garret9]

hahaha

 

[ihadtochangethename]

does anyone think that perhaps he is just heartbroken? i mean, i hate to be a sap, but i can remember seeing a video where Burmi says that his dream is to play in the NHL with the biggest smile on his face, and its pretty much gone, well, not so good for him. To the point where he would rather just leave. Idk, but the fact that he cant seem to stop talking about it makes me think that he's either having doubts about his decision making, or reality has set in, and now hes heartbroken. just saying...

 

[Zine]

Just like every other player that went to the K, right?

i'm not entirely sure what you trying to get across here. Burmi has said many times that he didn't want to play in the KHL, and if he truly did want to play there and had been lying to everybody in the process...he would have gone during the lockout contract be damned. Hell, a lot of other people did it, why not Burmi? then there was a report that he wanted to be traded at the deadline, but then said afterwards that he was happy that he wasn't traded.

Which is it?

If you read between the lines, it makes a ton of sense. What doesn't make sense is all the crap in between that the media has "dug up". Especially the media that has reported that a ton of jets players didn't want to be here, but all signed long term deals. Also reported buff to be a svelte 302lbs after the season, and said he gained forty pounds...when that is truly physically impossible.

The media lies to create a story. the players lie to get GM's to draft them. GM's and coaches lie about issues with players. Everybody lies, but somebody here is telling the honest truth and I would imagine that to be Burmi, as he stands to gain the least by lying.

No, just clearing up a little confusion.

Players on entry level (2-way) contracts HAD to report to the AHL if sent down. Apart from Tarasenko/Yakupov (who weren't sent down) no other guy who played in KHL had a 2way contract.
Look at Voynov's situation; it's same as Burmistrov:
"Voynov’s agent broached the subject once (about returning to KHL), Lombardi declined to release his young defenseman, and the issue was hardly heard of again. Voynov returned to the long bus trips and odd-hour flights of the AHL,"
http://www.foxsportswest.com/story/voynov-rewards-kings-with-focused-ahl-st?blockID=847991

A little more about Burmistrov:
"But if the Jets were to assign him to the AHL and he really wanted to be in the KHL, it would place him in a tough spot. He could still go to Russia and be in breach of his NHL contract"
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2012/9/15/3338238/winnipeg-jets-nhl-lockout-st-johns-icecaps-ahl-alexander-burmistrov


It's obvious that having made the NHL, the KHL became Burmistrov's preferred second option (maybe first option if things didn't go well in NHL). Every year he'd even train and workout with Ak Bars in the KHL preseason.

Again, Russian prospects will say anything to GMs and N.A. media to get drafted. (Even crazy Krill Kabanov admitted as such, I'll try and dig up the quote). Just look where Daniil "I'm a Canadian player" Zharkov chose to play this year.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Burmi COULD NOT go to KHL this year. He was not waiver eligible, so Jets sent him to AHL.

KHL has respected the NHL-KHL MOU regarding each other's contracts. They would not have risked the NHL's wrath over Burmistrov. If the Jets did not release him (which they did not), NO WAY Burmistrov could have headed to KHL. The leagues respect each other's contract, Burmi could not have left and "breached" his contract since nobody would sign him in KHL.

 

[Analyst365]

does anyone think that perhaps he is just heartbroken? i mean, i hate to be a sap, but i can remember seeing a video where Burmi says that his dream is to play in the NHL with the biggest smile on his face, and its pretty much gone, well, not so good for him. To the point where he would rather just leave. Idk, but the fact that he cant seem to stop talking about it makes me think that he's either having doubts about his decision making, or reality has set in, and now hes heartbroken. just saying...

That's sentimental, but nah, it's all about money money money with these guys.

 

[ihadtochangethename]

That's sentimental, but nah, it's all about money money money with these guys.

so why wont he shut up then...

 

[Whileee]

At this point it seems unlikely to me that Burmi will be back with the Jets. However, I do think that the Jets still hope that he is an asset that improves, and that they can then convert into another asset through a trade sometime in the future. So, I hope Burmi does very well in the KHL, and improves his market value.

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

I think at the end of the day Burmi probably just ran out of gas and threw up the white flag and said I am going home...given the fact he lived in Barrie, Atlanta, Winnipeg and Newfoundland without knowing English is a heck of a lot of mental wear and tear. It's just too much change.

A break at home could do wonders for him. I think he still has the competitive fire to play in the best league in the world..just not now and probably not for Noel.

I truly doubt he was intentionally throwing anyone under the bus or is a selfish person. I think at worst he was venting out those pent up emotions of the last four years. His first impression on Winnipeg fans was very positive, let's not forget that.

I am stoked to see him return in two years, the relationship between him and the Jets did not appear completely wrecked. Time can salvage this.

 

[Positive]

does anyone think that perhaps he is just heartbroken? i mean, i hate to be a sap, but i can remember seeing a video where Burmi says that his dream is to play in the NHL with the biggest smile on his face, and its pretty much gone, well, not so good for him. To the point where he would rather just leave. Idk, but the fact that he cant seem to stop talking about it makes me think that he's either having doubts about his decision making, or reality has set in, and now hes heartbroken. just saying...

Boo, frickin' hoo? He was making $1.5 million a year as a 19-year old, was pretty much fast-tracked and skipped the farm teams, was playing 15+ minutes a night. BUT OH NOES IT'S BEEN 3 YEARS AND I'M STILL NOT ON THE FIRST LINE AND FORMER ALL-STARS ARE GETTING MORE MINUTES THAN ME. MY LIFE IS HORRIBLE, WHEN WILL A GLITTERY VAMPIRE SAVE ME FROM MY TORTUROUS EXISTENCE??

If you want to keep living the dream, maybe you should perservere at it. At least take those English lessons people offer you. Or the help that Jimmy Roy offers you. And maybe swallow your pride and bend backwards for your coach and team even if you don't like it.

 

[Duke749]

Boo, frickin' hoo? He was making $1.5 million a year as a 19-year old, was pretty much fast-tracked and skipped the farm teams, was playing 15+ minutes a night. BUT OH NOES IT'S BEEN 3 YEARS AND I'M STILL NOT ON THE FIRST LINE AND FORMER ALL-STARS ARE GETTING MORE MINUTES THAN ME. MY LIFE IS HORRIBLE, WHEN WILL A GLITTERY VAMPIRE SAVE ME FROM MY TORTUROUS EXISTENCE??

If you want to keep living the dream, maybe you should perservere at it. At least take those English lessons people offer you. Or the help that Jimmy Roy offers you. And maybe swallow your pride and bend backwards for your coach and team even if you don't like it.

What is the point in this? I mean honestly. You guys literally just keep taking shots at the guy and have been doing it for weeks. I think it's time you guys move on from it. I mean who are we to continue to judge someone based off of foreign reports and jump to massive conclusions(which is what most people have been doing who want to take shots).

 

[King Woodballs]

Boo, frickin' hoo? He was making $1.5 million a year as a 19-year old, was pretty much fast-tracked and skipped the farm teams, was playing 15+ minutes a night. BUT OH NOES IT'S BEEN 3 YEARS AND I'M STILL NOT ON THE FIRST LINE AND FORMER ALL-STARS ARE GETTING MORE MINUTES THAN ME. MY LIFE IS HORRIBLE, WHEN WILL A GLITTERY VAMPIRE SAVE ME FROM MY TORTUROUS EXISTENCE??

If you want to keep living the dream, maybeyou should perservere at it. At least take those English lessons people offer you. Or the help that Jimmy Roy offers you. And maybe swallow your pride and bend backwards for your coach and team even if you don't like it.

Why?
When you can be self entitled, and get everything handed too you.