Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXIV

[BrooklynCapsFan]

I see alot of Green hate here lately. Most likely due to his perceived casual play and what people deem aversion to physical contact.

I'll just bring up 2 players: Larry Murphy and Sergei Gonchar

the EXACT same things were said about these two. IDENTICAL types of players all of them in a sense.

I don't think Caps fans will ever learn from their mistakes. Green will get run out of town and end up with a couple Stanley Cup rings at this rate.

The additiion by subtraction crowd will move onto their next goat and forget about this.

Um, Green is a fairly physical defenseman. The problem is that he's paid $6 million and has performed like a $3 million player for the past 3 years. If you bring in a $6 million dman who actually plays that way then yes, you will have addition by subtraction.

Over his last 40 games he has 12 even strength points. The same amount as Steven Oleksy.

And it certainly doesn't look like he's getting any better.

So the question is, what should we do? Keep wasting seasons without a #1 defenseman? Or try to compete and acquire a #1 defenseman?

 

[BobRouse]

Um, Green is a fairly physical defenseman. The problem is that he's paid $6 million and has performed like a $3 million player for the past 3 years. If you bring in a $6 million dman who actually plays that way then yes, you will have addition by subtraction.

Over his last 40 games he has 12 even strength points. The same amount as Steven Oleksy.

And it certainly doesn't look like he's getting any better.

So the question is, what should we do? Keep wasting seasons without a #1 defenseman? Or try to compete and acquire a #1 defenseman?

Since Oates took over it seems that he is trying to perserve Green and there seems to be a directive to him to avoid as much contact as possible.

Does Green need to play better 5on5? Absolutely. I am confident he will and he has made great strides defensively over the last few years and is bound to go thru some dips.

Green is more physical than Gonchar/Murphy were combined. All of them had their main contributions come on the powerplay. Out of the 3 (at about the same age) I'd say Green is probably better in his own zone.

Murphy and Gonchar eventually became capable dmen in their own zone but thats mainly due to experience and age/maturity. Green will do the same.

We need to get that #1 dman in ADDITION to Green not in place of. Personally I think Green will be a #1 dman (ala Brian Leech) should he get the right partner which he has never had.

Next year the Cap is apparently going up a good deal. Its probably best to look for said player then.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Since Oates took over it seems that he is trying to perserve Green and there seems to be a directive to him to avoid as much contact as possible.

Does Green need to play better 5on5? Absolutely. I am confident he will and he has made great strides defensively over the last few years and is bound to go thru some dips.

Green is more physical than Gonchar/Murphy were combined. All of them had their main contributions come on the powerplay. Out of the 3 (at about the same age) I'd say Green is probably better in his own zone.

Murphy and Gonchar eventually became capable dmen in their own zone but thats mainly due to experience and age/maturity. Green will do the same.

We need to get that #1 dman in ADDITION to Green not in place of. Personally I think Green will be a #1 dman (ala Brian Leech) should he get the right partner which he has never had.

Next year the Cap is apparently going up a good deal. Its probably best to look for said player then.

He's had 7 full years of development.

How many years did it take Weber to become a reliable #1? Doughty? Suter? Pietrangelo? Subban? OEL? Letang? Even Phaneuf?

It's absurd to pay him for something that he's not and then hold on to the delusion that he's going to become something special when he's been regressing.

 

[BobRouse]

He's had 7 full years of development.

How many years did it take Weber to become a reliable #1? Doughty? Suter? Pietrangelo? Subban? OEL? Letang? Even Phaneuf?

It's absurd to pay him for something that he's not and then hold on to the delusion that he's going to become something special when he's been regressing.

Larry Murphy played 12 years in the league before he became a complete dman. The light turned on at about age 31.

Gonchar played 13 or 14 years until he really became more well rounded (his 2nd year with the Pens)

Mike Green has played 8 years in the league and is 28 years old. At this same age he is a better player than either of those two guys. I watched all of them play their full time with the Caps and there is no doubt in my mind this is the case.

Dmen, especially offensive dmen, take a considerable amount of time to reach their peak as two way players.

Murphy is in the HOF. Gonchar is borderline but regardless was an outstanding player.


Murphy I believe finished 3rd in Norris trophy voting in 86-87. He never was a runner up.

Scott Stevens was a runner up twice.

Gonchar never to my knowledge.

Green was a runner up twice and should have won it with his rediculous season in 08-09.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Larry Murphy played 12 years in the league before he became a complete dman. The light turned on at about age 31.

Gonchar played 13 or 14 years until he really became more well rounded (his 2nd year with the Pens)

Mike Green has played 8 years in the league and is 28 years old. At this same age he is a better player than either of those two guys. I watched all of them play their full time with the Caps and there is no doubt in my mind this is the case.

Dmen, especially offensive dmen, take a considerable amount of time to reach their peak as two way players.

Murphy is in the HOF. Gonchar is borderline but regardless was an outstanding player.


Murphy I believe finished 3rd in Norris trophy voting in 86-87. He never was a runner up.

Scott Stevens was a runner up twice.

Gonchar never to my knowledge.

Green was a runner up twice and should have won it with his rediculous season in 08-09.

Name me a handful of top pairing dmen currently playing who flipped the switch at age 30. And you're also ignoring the point that he's being paid as a #1 dman while not performing as one.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Another new look for the #Caps: 10-19-8, 21-90-20, 25-84-42, 24-46-43, 27-74, 88-52, 34-61.

Forward lines are finally correct except Fehr should replace Laich since Laich is useless.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Another new look for the #Caps: 10-19-8, 21-90-20, 25-84-42, 24-46-43, 27-74, 88-52, 34-61.

Forward lines are finally correct except Fehr should replace Laich since Laich is useless.

That second line sucks. It needs two different wingers.

 

[BobRouse]

Name me a handful of top pairing dmen currently playing who flipped the switch at age 30. And you're also ignoring the point that he's being paid as a #1 dman while not performing as one.

DUDE!

At the young age of 28 the guy has already been a two time Norris trophy runner up! (again..there is no doubt in my mind he should have won it in 08-09)

Last year was his first reasonably healthy year in a couple years and he led the NHL dmen in goals despite missing a quarter of the season.

Our PP, when he is healthy, is top 5 in the league year in and year out. Bottom half when he isn't.

He is playing with an undrafted rookie as his d partner. Those two Norris years he played with JEFF FRIKIN SCHULTZ and its damn amazing how he carried that guy.

Half a year with Karl Alzner last year and he was very very good in addition to his goal production on the PP. Defensively 52 was solid.

I watched Brian Leech play his whole career and Mike Green is very similar player. Leech had James Patrick, Jeff Buekeboom and Ulf Samuelsson as D partners. All excellent NHL dmen. Green has had Jeff Schultz and an 80 year old Roman Hamrlik.

It amazes me how Caps fans can never ever learn from their mistakes of the past (Murphy, Gonchar).

To me a great many of them are "new wave" Caps fans and are new to hockey thus never developing an appreciation for a players strengths and only looking for MOAR MOAR MOAR.

As if they never read the fable of the Goose who laid the Golden Egg.

 

[Roughing]

I wish they could make Laich go away for a Top4 Dman...

Erat-Back-OV
Chim-Grabo-Ward
Fehr-MoJo-Brow
Wilson-Latta-Volp

 

[RandyHolt]

I see alot of Green hate here lately.....

I am not sure I ever questioned those 2 players smarts nor effort level. It's not all about hitting, but Green would occasionally throw a monster hit. Poof gone. Defense got better, but now his effort seems to have regressed.

Heck, he went a few years seeming to detest shooting???

Murphy and Gonchar never really changed their games. And sorry but Gonchar hit more than Green does currently (never). They stuck to their games and went on to better things. They were just offensive defensemen in an era when defense was on everyone's radar in this town. So they were heckled.

But, they weren't the leaders of our defense. Mike is. He is our Norris guy, our PP guy, our all situation guy; our vet.

This is the mentor for Carlson, Orlov, Oleksy Schmidt etc, knowingly or not. I already see some of Green in Carlson. Gone is the physical play I remember from Carlson.

As far as moving Green out, as always, as long as we get fair value for him, it really should carry little risk. Murphy landed us.... Dino and Rouse I believe? Not a train wreck of a deal. But I think fans had a large say in those players leaving. I did not want them traded.

Maybe a change of scenery helped Murphy and Gonchar? If they were never traded, would have they landed us a cup?

 

[marcel snapshot]

I know everyone is displeased with Laich's lack of production and the degree to which he has the guy who kills a rush/offensive foray/scoring chance - but he's also been a key guy on a penalty kill that's among the league's best. That's worth something - I get that it doesn't mean he has to be in the top 6, but the brass seems to have taken the view that this is a slump he can play through.

The question is does he have to be in the top 6 in order to bring what he brings to the PK. And if the answer is no - that means he's on the 4th line, cuz you can't break up 25-84-42. I can understand why they'd be reluctant to do that - but if his offensive production stay anemic for another 10 games, you have to stop giving the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Laich this year seems to be where Chimmer was last year, when everyone want Chimmer demoted because of his lack of production.

 

[BobRouse]

I am not sure I ever questioned those 2 players smarts nor effort level. It's not all about hitting, but Green would occasionally throw a monster hit. Poof gone. Defense got better, but now his effort seems to have regressed.

Heck, he went a few years seeming to detest shooting???

Murphy and Gonchar never really changed their games. And sorry but Gonchar hit more than Green does currently (never). They stuck to their games and went on to better things. They were just offensive defensemen in an era when defense was on everyone's radar in this town. So they were heckled.

But, they weren't the leaders of our defense. Mike is. He is our Norris guy, our PP guy, our all situation guy; our vet.

This is the mentor for Carlson, Orlov, Oleksy Schmidt etc, knowingly or not. I already see some of Green in Carlson. Gone is the physical play I remember from Carlson.

As far as moving Green out, as always, as long as we get fair value for him, it really should carry little risk. Murphy landed us.... Dino and Rouse I believe? Not a train wreck of a deal. But I think fans had a large say in those players leaving. I did not want them traded.

Maybe a change of scenery helped Murphy and Gonchar? If they were never traded, would have they landed us a cup?

Another thing RE: Gonchar and Murphy

When Gonch was here is D partner was Joe Reekie for most of the time. Reekie developed into a solid gritty dman who was very stable. Then Gonch had Witt after Reekie left. Not terrible.

Murphy was paired with Stevens for much of the time here.

Up until they were 28 Stevens, Murphy, and Gonchar combined had 1 Norris runner up and a 3rd place finish. Green surpassed that.

Who was Greens partner(s)? Shamo? Jeff Schultz?

If that isn't impressive in itself then not sure what is.

And I will have to disagree. Gonchar hit when he first came here and was young but that quickly went away. Murphy never hit. Green did hit alot prior to Oates.

Green gets dirty sometimes and has been suspended too so its not like he lacks mean streak. He also stood up for Shamo in the playoffs after Upshall delivered a cheap shot to his broken jaw.

The change of scenery may be part of it. But look at it....Murphy turned it around when he was paired with Samuelsson in Pitt. Gonchar with Orpik in Pitt.

Green has never had a D partner near that caliber. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

So yes they had more to work with. But ...they did also get better with age in their own zone too and that happens to dmen.

 

[RandyHolt]

I cannot recall a memorable Green hit for 2-3 years now. Sure he plays more physical than Murph or Gonchar, but those guys didn't really have to hit, to be effective. Their defense with less physicality, was about on par with Greens.

Maybe Green needs a mentor. At least he FINALLY learned to protect himself more. I wonder if he learned that from Carlson.

We have been saying we need a 1LD all along. But he did get Alzner, yet seemed to be spacing out more than usual. That pairing is broken up.

Without ever getting a true all situation 1LD, fans are curious to explore what he would fetch in attempts to make a pairing work.

If he can't play with Alzner, I am not sure who he is going to do better with.

 

[swimmer77]

Without reading all of the posts..........

The Mike Green I remember would put you on the edge of your seat. His ESP production was similar to PPP. And he'd throw a solid hit.

He's always been nonchalant and it was okay when he was mega producing.

This new Mike Green doesn't produce like the old one. Blame it on his D partners? If Green turned Schultz into a mega plus D-man well now come on. 80 year old Hamrlik had the same stats (if not better) than Mike Green during the playoffs a couple years back. So which one is it? Hamrlik is in fact 80 years old or Mike Green is still this terrific talent? But that was Hunter hockey with Green coming off the injury. Hamrlik really didn't play with Green all that much so don't blame him.

Maybe it's Green! I remember Oates' mantra last year was the d-men were going to join the offensive play. Remember the jokes of Schultz joining the offensive play. Remember Erskine joining the offensive play. What about this Green fellow that doesn't rack up the ESP points, doesn't hit much and is still nonchalant to the point where his D partners, whomever they may be, have to cover for him?

 

[BobRouse]

I cannot recall a memorable Green hit for 2-3 years now. Sure he plays more physical than Murph or Gonchar, but those guys didn't really have to hit, to be effective. Their defense with less physicality, was about on par with Greens.

Maybe Green needs a mentor. At least he FINALLY learned to protect himself more. I wonder if he learned that from Carlson.

We have been saying we need a 1LD all along. But he did get Alzner, yet seemed to be spacing out more than usual. That pairing is broken up.

Without ever getting a true all situation 1LD, fans are curious to explore what he would fetch in attempts to make a pairing work.

If he can't play with Alzner, I am not sure who is going to do better with.

Green and Alzner were paired in the 2nd half of last season and were excellent. They were very good in the playoffs as well. The year before Green and Hamrlik were right up there with Karlzner as our best pair but Hunter prefered the power duo of Wideman/Schultz

Also I will contend Alzner is not an optimal partner for Green but by far the best he's had.

Green needs a Buekeboom or a Samuelsson or a Seabrook or an Oprik. Big, physical, mean.

Instead we give him soft butter muffins in guys like Schultz.


I was RIPPING GMGM long long before it became fashionable to do so. The same people who rip GMGM now don't get accused of "Schtick" and they don't get banned for doing the very same things I did back then.

Now GMGM is getting better but he has long neglected the D. Its just now that people are finally realizing it (over the last couple years) and complaining.

Green has been a victim of GMGMs lack of diligence when it comes to the D. In fact it cost the Caps a stanley cup and Green at least 1 Norris.

 

[Capitlols]

Instead of finding a mentor/1LD for Green, how about just replacing him?

 

[BobRouse]

Instead of finding a mentor/1LD for Green, how about just replacing him?

Sorta like we did for Murphy and Gonchar? How did that work out?

Between these 2 players they have 5 or 6 stanley cup rings

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Sorta like we did for Murphy and Gonchar? How did that work out?

Between these 2 players they have 5 or 6 stanley cup rings

How'd it work out when Pittsburgh traded their lottery pick dman in 2009?

 

[BobRouse]

How'd it work out when Pittsburgh traded their lottery pick dman in 2009?

Are we talking about Whitney??

You do know that I HATED this guy's game right? He's not even in the same hemisphere as Green/Letang/Keith/Gonchar/Murphy

Whitney is a carbon copy of Goligoski and when they were traded I told my Pens fan friends that they will be happy with Kunitz/Neal.

Talk about a terrible example to use

 

[Capitlols]

Sorta like we did for Murphy and Gonchar? How did that work out?

Between these 2 players they have 5 or 6 stanley cup rings

Green was making the same mental mistakes he always has with Alzner and he's a damn good LD, hard to find a better guy like Alzner for Green. Even harder to believe that by doing so will lead to multiple cups.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Are we talking about Whitney??

You do know that I HATED this guy's game right? He's not even in the same hemisphere as Green/Letang/Keith/Gonchar/Murphy

Whitney is a carbon copy of Goligoski and when they were traded I told my Pens fan friends that they will be happy with Kunitz/Neal.

Talk about a terrible example to use

Yes, the comparison of Green to an offensive dman with an impressive history who was not living up to his potential from within the past five years is a poor example.

 

[BobRouse]

Yes, the comparison of Green to an offensive dman with an impressive history who was not living up to his potential from within the past five years is a poor example.

Wait...you are seriously using Whitney as an example?? Talk about reaching

He had exactly 1 year where he exceeded 40pts and never even got close to being a Norris nominee.

Green is one of the most dominant offensive dmen to play in the last 20 years and is a 2 time Norris runner up.

Good comparison bro

Green was making the same mental mistakes he always has with Alzner and he's a damn good LD, hard to find a better guy like Alzner for Green. Even harder to believe that by doing so will lead to multiple cups.

Leech made tons of mistakes as did Murphy and Letang does too right now. The fact is that this is the way of life for an offensive Dman who has the puck and takes chances.

Erik Karlsson has huge brain farts himself. Terrible ones. Thats the nature of the beast. The more you have the puck and make plays the more mistakes you will make.

Elway and Brett Farve were known as gunslingers and two of the best QBs in history (an offensive dman is akin to a QB in hockey). They threw lots of interceptions tho b/c they took chances that other QBs would not. Thats part of what made them great.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Wait...you are seriously using Whitney as an example?? Talk about reaching

He had exactly 1 year where he exceeded 40pts and never even got close to being a Norris nominee.

Green is one of the most dominant offensive dmen to play in the last 20 years and is a 2 time Norris runner up.

Good comparison bro

Green's big years have no relevance today. No one, not even you, thinks that Green will ever put up 30-50-80 again. As noted previously, he can't outscore Oleksy right now.

 

[BobRouse]

Green's big years have no relevance today. No one, not even you, thinks that Green will ever put up 30-50-80 again. As noted previously, he can't outscore Oleksy right now.

Talk about a short memory....

Which dman led the league in goals at his positiion last year despite missing quarter of the season?

I don't believe Ovechkin will but up 65-45-110 again either but that doesn't make him any less of a player.

If youre expectation is for Green to put up 30-50-80 (as a reminder these numbers were historic in a sense as no dman has put up this kind of production in a long time) then you clearly will think he sucks no matter what and there is no convincing you.

Mind you he did that with Jeff Schultz as his D partner. Not Lidstrom. Not Seabrook. Not Orpik. Jeff frikin Schultz

EDIT: Actually he may have done that with Shamo. That was 08-09 and not sure if Shamo was still his partner or if Schultz was slotted next to him. Either way its awful impressive

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Talk about a short memory....

Which dman led the league in goals at his positiion last year despite missing quarter of the season?

I don't believe Ovechkin will but up 65-45-110 again either but that doesn't make him any less of a player.

If youre expectation is for Green to put up 30-50-80 (as a reminder these numbers were historic in a sense as no dman has put up this kind of production in a long time) then you clearly will think he sucks no matter what and there is no convincing you.

Mind you he did that with Jeff Schultz as his D partner. Not Lidstrom. Not Seabrook. Not Orpik. Jeff frikin Schultz

EDIT: Actually he may have done that with Shamo. That was 08-09 and not sure if Shamo was still his partner or if Schultz was slotted next to him. Either way its awful impressive

$6+ million should buy 70-80 points + average to good defense. See Pietrangelo and Karlsson and soon to be Subban. If Green is capable of 70 points with Schultz, then he should be capable of 70 points with Schmidt.