About Hakstol

[NYCFlyer]

Ohhhh so Konecnys hockey IQ isn't as good, but benching him will make it better? Damn, Hakstol really is an amazing coach!

Benching players to quickly improve hockey IQ... I guess other teams never tried that.

Also, could one of the Hakstol whiteknights explain what exactly can be taught by watching the game as a healthy scratch (while inferior players are on the ice) that can't by studying video with a coach? Otherwise the common sense answer would be that benching a player does nothing unless it's a discipline or character issue.

As always, I love the illogical bashing of any good player Hakstol has scratched or complained about and how it contrasts the turd polishing of any trash player Hakstol loves. The agenda couldn't possibly be more clear. Everything is an effort to defend Hakstol. Everything.

I think you sort of hit on the issue with TK and Ghost last year but you lost me on the last paragraph. I also think most benchings of high skill players is due to discipline and character issues. I think thats who happened last year with Ghost and TK in different ways. I think Ghost was basically ignoring what Hak had repeatedly wanted him to do and was borderline insubordinate and Hak benched him. I would have too. He put him back in and there seemed to be kind of a compromise toward the end of the year.

I think TK has awesome skill and i love watching him but i would specifically watch him at the games and he had no idea where he was supposed to be and what he was supposed to do and was just freewheeling. I think Hak tried different things and couldn't figure out how to get to him and benched him. Then he put him in the black hole (aka 4th line) so you can't really look at his scoring to say whether he got to him or not. I still think TK is undisciplined and could use more tough love to make him eventually become the all star he should be given his talent.

 

[Striiker]

"but right now [Konecny] just isn't that good"

I think he's pretty damn good. You can be flawed and still be good.

The only reason he's downplaying Konecny's skill is because it's a way to defend Hakstol.

Unbelievable...

 

[Striiker]

I think you sort of hit on the issue with TK and Ghost last year but you lost me on the last paragraph. I also think most benchings of high skill players is due to discipline and character issues. I think thats who happened last year with Ghost and TK in different ways. I think Ghost was basically ignoring what Hak had repeatedly wanted him to do and was borderline insubordinate and Hak benched him. I would have too. He put him back in and there seemed to be kind of a compromise toward the end of the year.

I think TK has awesome skill and i love watching him but i would specifically watch him at the games and he had no idea where he was supposed to be and what he was supposed to do and was just freewheeling. I think Hak tried different things and couldn't figure out how to get to him and benched him. Then he put him in the black hole (aka 4th line) so you can't really look at his scoring to say whether he got to him or not. I still think TK is undisciplined and could use more tough love to make him eventually become the all star he should be given his talent.

Ehh... I don't know about that.

Is it possible that Ghost was ignoring Hak? Sure, I guess. But I don't think I can buy that unless there was more evidence to suggest it's true. I don't think Ghost was disobeying as much as he was trying to do things he isn't physically really able to do so it didn't really work out. He needs to kinda be free to play risky because that's where some of his payoff comes from and it stops him from trying too hard to be careful and second guessing himself (which leads to hesitation, which leads to problems).

He even said in an interview that he started playing better after he stopped worrying about getting yelled at, which obviously means he was worried about getting yelled at. So I assume he was at least trying to do what was asked of him.

 

[Tripod]

Yeah, my issue is that Giroux is clearly still good enough to play C and how that would help team depth so much.

Sure, the top line is working out, but that was never a worry of mine. They're all good and putting them together is working as expected. But I don't think that positivity outweighs the negativity of the depth issues it causes.

I don't either, unless we keep scoring 8 goals a night....lol.

In the end, it comes down to them clearly liking Flip and thinking he can help the team win. If it increases his trade value and we ship him out at some point, then good.

As long as we win, and kids develop, I will be happy.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Ehh... I don't know about that.

Is it possible that Ghost was ignoring Hak? Sure, I guess. But I don't think I can buy that unless there was more evidence to suggest it's true. I don't think Ghost was disobeying as much as he was trying to do things he isn't physically really able to do so it didn't really work out. He needs to kinda be free to play risky because that's where some of his payoff comes from and it stops him from trying too hard to be careful and second guessing himself (which leads to hesitation, which leads to problems).

He even said in an interview that he started playing better after he stopped worrying about getting yelled at, which obviously means he was worried about getting yelled at. So I assume he was at least trying to do what was asked of him.

We are talking about why a coach benches a player and whether or not it was justified. He was getting yelled at because he wasn't doing what the coach wanted. After multiple yellings you get benched. I have zero problem with that.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

We are talking about why a coach benches a player and whether or not it was justified. He was getting yelled at because he wasn't doing what the coach wanted. After multiple yellings you get benched. I have zero problem with that.

I'd have a problem with him trying to turn Ghost into something he's not - i.e. to make him "reliable" (TM) and "safe" (TM), the Hakstol versions. I'm not saying that is what he was doing, because we don't know. If he was trying to get him to learn some things to become better defensively, that's obviously not the end of the world. But Ghost doesn't strike me as a super recalcitrant guy, and I'm not sure I trust Hakstol to not be playing stupid collegiate mind games with him. It goes without saying, after our victory last night, that he is one of the best coaches we have had in ages, et cetera, yada yada yada. But when it comes to that benching, it just left a bad taste in my mouth. ESPECIALLY when you consider the timing of it, right after he won that award - it was an unnecessary embarrassment. And the thing with Sanheim's parents being in town for his benching reminded me of that. And the Konecny one doesn't even bear mentioning. I'll start foaming at the mouth.

 

[Striiker]

We are talking about why a coach benches a player and whether or not it was justified. He was getting yelled at because he wasn't doing what the coach wanted. After multiple yellings you get benched. I have zero problem with that.

But Im saying it could have been a problem of physical capability instead of disobedience.

Maybe Ghost was merely trying to do too much instead of thinking "Hakstol want me to do X, but I don't care so I'm going to do Y".

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The only reason he's downplaying Konecny's skill is because it's a way to defend Hakstol.

Unbelievable...

Well hell, I defend Hak & dedhead more than most (contrarian nature), but I don't get ded's launch on Konecny at all. He's a weapon. I don't want to hide that weapon in the minors for 3 years because it malfunctions a few times.

 

[NYCFlyer]

I'd have a problem with him trying to turn Ghost into something he's not - i.e. to make him "reliable" (TM) and "safe" (TM), the Hakstol versions. I'm not saying that is what he was doing, because we don't know. If he was trying to get him to learn some things to become better defensively, that's obviously not the end of the world. But Ghost doesn't strike me as a super recalcitrant guy, and I'm not sure I trust Hakstol to not be playing stupid collegiate mind games with him. It goes without saying, after our victory last night, that he is one of the best coaches we have had in ages, et cetera, yada yada yada. But when it comes to that benching, it just left a bad taste in my mouth. ESPECIALLY when you consider the timing of it, right after he won that award - it was an unnecessary embarrassment. And the thing with Sanheim's parents being in town for his benching reminded me of that. And the Konecny one doesn't even bear mentioning. I'll start foaming at the mouth.

Its only five games, but four good teams on the road and the home game was against the team with the best record over the last two years, so lets see where we are after 20.
Last night was an awesome game its a shame you never get to go to see them play live. You can see coaches chewing out players and how they respond. You see who is hustling, who is competing hard who is a cheap shot guy, who has vision, a great shot etc. easier than on TV.

Ghost is really sharp but he was getting yelled at for sure, TK as well.

I honestly don't understand why he would bench Sanheim for Manning. Makes no sense to me. Happy for 8-2 though and thats my bottom line.

 

[deadhead]

After five games they have depth issues? Ask the Caps!
I think it was more about finding the right combination on the 2nd and 3rd lines, Filppula seems to play better with Weal and SImmonds, and they with him.

Putting Patrick with Konency make sense, both short and long run, Patrick is going to be an exceptional passer, and Konency needs someone to get him the puck in stride to work magic. Weise is fine for now, he'll be replaced by Raffl or Lindblom, who are similar in style, but Raffl seems too good a fit with Laughton to move and Hextall doesn't think Lindblom is ready.

Patrick may struggle a little, like Provorov last year, but he'll figure it out. If he's 100%, he'll be our best center by May.

In 20 games last year they outscored the opposition at ES 43-29, swapping Patrick for Schenn they've outscored the opposition 15-10 so far.
This despite a save % of .892.

 

[deadhead]

Well hell, I defend Hak & dedhead more than most (contrarian nature), but I don't get ded's launch on Konecny at all. He's a weapon. I don't want to hide that weapon in the minors for 3 years because it malfunctions a few times.

It's not a matter of hiding him, he was rushed because of lack of depth.
Frost and Rubtsov may be as talented, but it's doubtful they'll skip the AHL.
Because we already have 12 solid forwards and 3-4 more in AHL who'll push for jobs next year.
So there's no longer a need to rush prospects.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Its only five games, but four good teams on the road and the home game was against the team with the best record over the last two years, so lets see where we are after 20.
Last night was an awesome game its a shame you never get to go to see them play live. You can see coaches chewing out players and how they respond. You see who is hustling, who is competing hard who is a cheap shot guy, who has vision, a great shot etc. easier than on TV.

Yeah, definitely, I am really missing a lot of 360-degree context by not seeing them live these last several years. I went to millions of games live in St. Louis and I know how much I miss on TV. I only used to get to see the Flyers a couple times a year, then only once a year, but I felt like I really knew them better for it. Like Lindros - you just couldn't imagine, from only watching on TV, what an incredible beast that guy was on the ice. He got thrown out of his first game in St. Louis basically for just being larger than any other human being

 

[NYCFlyer]

But Im saying it could have been a problem of physical capability instead of disobedience.

Maybe Ghost was merely trying to do too much instead of thinking "Hakstol want me to do X, but I don't care so I'm going to do Y".

Possibly but its irrelevant. If you can't or won't...it doesn't matter.. you get benched and rightfully so imo until you can or will do what the coach wants. Stars of course can be exempt.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It's not a matter of hiding him, he was rushed because of lack of depth.
Frost and Rubtsov may be as talented, but it's doubtful they'll skip the AHL.
Because we already have 12 solid forwards and 3-4 more in AHL who'll push for jobs next year.
So there's no longer a need to rush prospects.

Nah. Konecny's way more advanced for having played a season with the Flyers already. It progressed his development, and he was a better option than Chris Vandevelde.

 

[deadhead]

That's kind of like the Phantoms game last night, when Morin got an elbowing call from checking a guy who came up to his elbow!

 

[tymed]

Raffl is unquestionably the best support player out of himself/Weise/Lehtera/Read etc., and the best option to play with the Patrick/Tk duo. I think that's incomparably more important than not wanting to disrupt 4th line chemistry, especially when Leier/Laughton clearly have that. Any one of the other guys mentioned can potentially be a good 3rd wheel on the 4th line, while the 3rd line is above their range. Patrick/Tk are the future here and Raffl has a good chance of being the 3rd piece that helps that line start getting on the board. 4th unit doesn't need Raffl---Laughton seems to have his own agenda for driving it.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Yeah, definitely, I am really missing a lot of 360-degree context by not seeing them live these last several years. I went to millions of games live in St. Louis and I know how much I miss on TV. I only used to get to see the Flyers a couple times a year, then only once a year, but I felt like I really knew them better for it. Like Lindros - you just couldn't imagine, from only watching on TV, what an incredible beast that guy was on the ice. He got thrown out of his first game in St. Louis basically for just being larger than any other human being

Brings back memories... I sit right in the corner and remember him really crushing people checking them in the boards, seeing the look/fear on their face when he was barreling toward them. Seeing the abuse Leclair would take in front of the net. The Spectrum would literally shake during the playoffs and I couldn't hear for like an hour after the game.

 

[deadhead]

Nah. Konecny's way more advanced for having played a season with the Flyers already. It progressed his development, and he was a better option than Chris Vandevelde.

Hextall would have still preferred for him to have spent that last year in juniors and one year in the AHL, then make next year his rookie season.
And he would have exploded on the scene at 21, much stronger, smarter and experienced and more disicplined when he hit the NHL.

The difference now is Hakstol has that option, it not only puts off the clock starting, it means when players arrive and take roster spots, they're ready to contribute at a high level, since they beat out a capable player. That's one of the advantage of depth.

 

[deadhead]

Raffl is unquestionably the best support player out of himself/Weise/Lehtera/Read etc., and the best option to play with the Patrick/Tk duo. I think that's incomparably more important than not wanting to disrupt 4th line chemistry, especially when Leier/Laughton clearly have that. Any one of the other guys mentioned can potentially be a good 3rd wheel on the 4th line, while the 3rd line is above their range. Patrick/Tk are the future here and Raffl has a good chance of being the 3rd piece that helps that line start getting on the board. 4th unit doesn't need Raffl---Laughton seems to have his own agenda for driving it.

Totally disagree, for what Patrick needs, Weise is fine for now.

The "4th line" (don't be surprised if they end up getting as much PT as the 2nd and 3rd lines) has a chance to be something special, a line that can line up against top lines and drive them crazy and score on them (because a lot of scoring lines don't want to work hard on defense). If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Totally disagree, for what Patrick needs, Weise is fine for now.

The "4th line" (don't be surprised if they end up getting as much PT as the 2nd and 3rd lines) has a chance to be something special, a line that can line up against top lines and drive them crazy and score on them (because a lot of scoring lines don't want to work hard on defense). If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Horses for courses, amirite?

 

[tymed]

Patrick and TK have all the skill that a 3rd line needs. They need someone who drives play and possession. I'm not knocking Weise but Raffl is a much better option for that. I'd say it's more important to try to find the right piece for the kids. If the whole thing foils in a hurry, no loss, put Raffl back on the 4th line and carry on again.

 

[Striiker]

Possibly but its irrelevant. If you can't or won't...it doesn't matter.. you get benched and rightfully so imo until you can or will do what the coach wants. Stars of course can be exempt.

But there's no reason to think that benching a player actually does anything to help a player. There's nothing they can do in the pressbox that they can't do by studying video or having discussions with the coaching staff. Playing and gaining experience helps a player improve far more than sittin on their ass does.

 

[deadhead]

I disagree. Right now they need a physical player like Weise.
Teams have already taken runs at Patrick, and Konency is better at getting into trouble than getting out of it, and neither is going to set screens or be great in the corners.

Now in a couple years, Patrick will be much bigger (he has the frame to fill out, he's only 19), and at that point no one will be messing with him and he'll be dominating most opposing centers.

And I hate the idea of weakening the 4th line, that's conventional thinking, load you best players on 3 lines instead of fielding four balanced lines.
I think this four line is a matchup nightmare for most coaches, you don't want them against your scoring line, but you don't dare put your "slug" line against them, you don't want to waste your defensive matchup grouping . . .

 

[deadhead]

But there's no reason to think that benching a player actually does anything to help a player. There's nothing they can do in the pressbox that they can't do by studying video or having discussions with the coaching staff. Playing and gaining experience helps a player improve far more than sittin on their ass does.

Of course it "helps" a player. Helps them to wake the f-- up.
I think for Konency the message was "focus."
For Ghost it was probably more like "stop being a f'n prima donna and leave your teammates out to dry."

Yes, you want Ghost to play it "safe" to a certain extent, maybe we need to bring in Kimmo to tutor him on the difference between aggressive and stupid.
It's called taking "calculated risks," you want offensive defensemen to push the play, but to also be aware of where his teammates are and avoid turnovers that lead to breakaways and breakouts. Ghost and Voracek were the two most careless players last year (v players who got beat b/c they were limited).

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Hextall would have still preferred for him to have spent that last year in juniors and one year in the AHL, then make next year his rookie season.
And he would have exploded on the scene at 21, much stronger, smarter and experienced and more disicplined when he hit the NHL.

The difference now is Hakstol has that option, it not only puts off the clock starting, it means when players arrive and take roster spots, they're ready to contribute at a high level, since they beat out a capable player. That's one of the advantage of depth.

I don't get your point. Is Konecny better for his year of NHL experience or not?