A recap of the Jackets History

Double-Shift Lasse

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From the beginning, it's seemed like the McConnells (and god love 'em for leading the charge to get an NHL team in Cbus) have been looking for a seasoned hockey person to handle a type of business with which they were not familiar. Smart, in a way, but generally they have ceded that aspect of the operation, with loyal lieutenant Mike Priest as a go-between.

What this has resulted in is a lack of personality, organizational philosophy, maybe vision is the right word, that even a hands-off ownership can/should provide.

Anyway, DM and JD are the prime examples of this, IMO. In between, we had Howson, with Priest attempting to handle some of the league business that I assume he decided he wasn't cut out for, leading to the JD hire.

The other weird thing about the McConnells leadership of the CBJ is that (from a public-facing perspective, anyway) they've failed in situations when they had to decide whether to run the Jackets the way they do Worthington Industries. Like, when they should be taking a more "pro sports franchise" approach, they've chosen to run it like the rest of their business, and vice versa.

Anyway, that's my attempt at creating an overarching narrative of club history.
 
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DarkandStormy

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I had been marinating on this after Jarmo was fired (sent some PMs to some people about it) and it falls in line quite a bit with what Porty wrote.

-Maclean had several downfalls, notably his lack of patience and piss poor drafting. If you swing and miss and the biggest can't miss draft in history (2003) that's a 10-15 year mistake (x2 because the 2nd round was so good). Zherdev/Fritsche could have been Suter/Weber.
-Howson did pretty well, though his issue was chasing the wrong guy to be the #1 center for Nash. Voracek, Couturier, Cousins for Jeff Carter...a bit nauseating to think about. But, he laid he foundation for the 2010s - Calvert, Atkinson, Savard, Johansen, Bobrovsky, Foligno, Dubinsky, etc.
-To me, Jarmo never really synced up his drafting with coaching style. He also tried to this reload on the fly crap when everyone and their mother knew a full rebuild was coming/needed.

The only real tank came in the Fail for Nail year where they ended up #2, taking Murray. Howson declined the Islanders offer for their entire draft class to move up from #4 to #2. Woof.

So they've never fully tanked/bottomed out, at least not in the right years to take the right players in the top 5. They have not had a truly good "core" of 4-5 guys to build around (like Tampa, Colorado, Chicago, Boston, LA, Pittsburgh, etc.). That makes it hard to have sustained success when you're changing over the guys in the room so frequently.

Attached is my contribution in the comments of the article. The Blue Jackets, since their existence, are probably one of the three worst franchises among the North American big four sports. Only the Browns and Lions come close.
 

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Napoli

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This is what I was talking about earlier...people are wanting a villain here to assign blame to get their pound of flesh. You know sometimes in life you can do everything right but not just luck out, not everything has to have an designated villain to blame all the problems on.
I believe your premise is even more ridiculous.

Almost every other NHL franchise is more successful than this one. Your argument is essentially were just really unlucky. In reality, the franchise and how it's run is just really incompetent.

It starts with ownernship.
 

squashmaple

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I believe your premise is even more ridiculous.

Almost every other NHL franchise is more successful than this one. Your argument is essentially were just really unlucky. In reality, the franchise and how it's run is just really incompetent.

It starts with ownernship.
It's both. There's incompetence, but there's also sheer bad luck. You'd expect even a blind squirrel to find a nut occasionally. But here we are, blind and nutless.
 

Napoli

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Oct 4, 2023
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It's both. There's incompetence, but there's also sheer bad luck. You'd expect even a blind squirrel to find a nut occasionally. But here we are, blind and nutless.
Fair, I'm not saying that this team has had luck, especially when it comes to the draft lottery.

That isn't the reason they are where they are after 20+ years.
 
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Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
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I believe your premise is even more ridiculous.

Almost every other NHL franchise is more successful than this one. Your argument is essentially were just really unlucky.
Which is truthful. There have been bad decisions made along the way, but pretending that changing ownership will suddenly magically make that go away is insane.
 
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Napoli

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Which is truthful. There have been bad decisions made along the way, but pretending that changing ownership will suddenly magically make that go away is insane.
Ask yourself what the best franchises have in common?

No one is saying a change ownership will suddenly make this a great team. The current ownership and the people they have put in place for the past 20 years has been a failure as a whole.

It's fair to say you can't blame individuals for 20+ years of suck, but the current ownership has proven they can't build a winning team.

I'm ready for a different group of people to choose who gets to run the team.
 

Jovavic

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IDWT stands for "In Doug We Trust" which was the mantra used by early Doug supporters on another Blue Jackets Site that was in competition with this one. That other site eventually folded and some people transferred to this site. I was one of the few people on that other site who caught on very early that Doug was a blithering moron who happened to be an excellent carnival barker so I started the chant IDWQ, "In Doug We Question". Needless to say, as time moved on, IDWQ won out in the great debate how Doug could fall in love with Gilbert Brule.
Zherdev is Gaborik+
 

majormajor

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Jun 23, 2018
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I'm not a JD fan but I don't like the way some of this conversation just takes for granted that he is on the same level as Doug Maclean, or that he is obviously below average in some way. I don't think that's clear at all.

If you append the Jackets record from the first decade to other club's records since then, most of them will look horrible.

The first 8 years of JD's tenure here the Blue Jackets were 12th in wins, out of 30 clubs. Any hockey person would have told you twelve years ago that JD is one of the most respected people you possibly could have hired.

And that's the way it should be done. Hire the right hockey people and get out of the way. Your chances of getting better decisions from a rich non-hockey expert is minimal.

Obviously after that 8th year we had to start this rebuild. And we're also just taking for granted in this conversation that the current rebuild is some embarrassing never-ending failure. This is only our fourth year in a row outside the playoffs. That's not even long by NHL rebuild standards. Our kids are still kids! I do not like being in this position, but if you ever advocated the team blowing it up or tanking, this is what you asked for. Jarmo made some terrible decisions recently but the overall shape of the rebuild is normal. I can think of a few better decisions that could have been made that would move us up to about where the Sabres currently are. But until Fantilli and company mature it is still a rebuild.

Now this may be controversial but since we can't/shouldn't blame individuals per say, should/could we blame the one constant in all of this, Ownership?

At the end of the day, they're hiring and putting people in these roles.

The Doug Maclean hire was a setback that cost us a decade plus. I'm from the Maritimes and I have family that is old friends with Doug, including some that have coached with him when he was just starting. They would laugh and say "he is full of beans" anytime he came up. Everyone likes him personally, but he's not the type you have GM a hockey team. Great salesman, built a great arena, but unfortunately he fooled our owner along with it.

As I argue above, that's where most of the extra losing comes from. After that you have very well respected people like Scott Howson AND later John Davidson coming aboard, with more mixed results. There's no reason to lump them all into one thing.

This is a league in which parity is key. The Jackets are near the bottom in terms of franchise value when they should be near the middle based upon potential market size and relative lack of competition for major league sports revenue in the city.

At some point, the team needs to stop playing nice and just accepting "bad luck" from the league. Think of pretty much any other owner or ownership group. Do you think they would quietly sit by and watch the franchise get passed over by talent, lottery luck, and national attention or would they become a pain in the league's side until something was "miraculously" done to even out that luck?

This is the major failing of Mike Priest to me. As the voice of ownership, he is too quiet and way too complacent when it comes to advocating that the team get its due.

The team doesn't get its due because it hasn't been good enough on the ice. They're not owed anything. They do not belong on national tv right now.

You want Mike Priest to complain that we have the worst lottery luck? You think that's going to change anything? The more quiet Mike Priest is the better, I don't want to hear from him or anyone on the ownership side.

From the beginning, it's seemed like the McConnells (and god love 'em for leading the charge to get an NHL team in Cbus) have been looking for a seasoned hockey person to handle a type of business with which they were not familiar. Smart, in a way, but generally they have ceded that aspect of the operation, with loyal lieutenant Mike Priest as a go-between.

What this has resulted in is a lack of personality, organizational philosophy, maybe vision is the right word, that even a hands-off ownership can/should provide.

Anyway, DM and JD are the prime examples of this, IMO. In between, we had Howson, with Priest attempting to handle some of the league business that I assume he decided he wasn't cut out for, leading to the JD hire.

This couldn't be more backwards. You want personality you don't go to some wealthy franchise owner. There aren't a lot of Mark Cuban's out there. Most of these people are boring and the few that aren't (Melnyk, Katz, Pegula, Dolan, Aquilini, etc..) are often batshit and deluded. I mean that literally, the public facing ones are often insane.

We've covered this "team personality" thing before. Good teams tend to have more personality but that comes mostly from the winning part. I'd like us to re-establish the nasty personality we had in the 2010s but that probably isn't going to show up until we start winning again.

The only real tank came in the Fail for Nail year where they ended up #2, taking Murray. Howson declined the Islanders offer for their entire draft class to move up from #4 to #2. Woof.

The Woof is that it was 2012. We weren't changing the course of the franchise in that draft, looking at who was available.

So they've never fully tanked/bottomed out, at least not in the right years to take the right players in the top 5.

They just did in 2023, in a great year to suck.
 

ThisIsMyAlibi

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Now this may be controversial but since we can't/shouldn't blame individuals per say, should/could we blame the one constant in all of this, Ownership?

At the end of the day, they're hiring and putting people in these roles.
Of course ownership is to blame. They’re always to blame or credit. Shit rolls uphill. After 25 years, they’re the constant. No one is unlucky for that long.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

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This couldn't be more backwards. You want personality you don't go to some wealthy franchise owner. There aren't a lot of Mark Cuban's out there. Most of these people are boring and the few that aren't (Melnyk, Katz, Pegula, Dolan, Aquilini, etc..) are often batshit and deluded. I mean that literally, the public facing ones are often insane.

We've covered this "team personality" thing before. Good teams tend to have more personality but that comes mostly from the winning part. I'd like us to re-establish the nasty personality we had in the 2010s but that probably isn't going to show up until we start winning again.
Well feel free to keep reading about the next 4-6 words and I settled on “vision.” Yes I suppose I should have worked it out in multiple drafts before posting it while I was eating breakfast but I was working that idea out and wasn’t sure the word I wanted there but yeah cool I don’t disagree with you and thanks for picking up on it.
 
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majormajor

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We’ll feel free to keep reading about the next 4-6 words and I settled on “vision.” Yes I suppose I should have worked it out in multiple drafts before posting it while I was eating breakfast but I was working that idea out and wasn’t sure the word I wanted there but yeah cool I don’t disagree with you and thanks for picking up on it.

All the same, I wouldn't go to some manufacturing scion to ask about NHL team building philosophy.
 
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Double-Shift Lasse

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All the same, I wouldn't go to some manufacturing scion to ask about NHL team building philosophy.
Nowhere did I say NHL team building philosophy. If you don’t believe an owner should cast a vision for the type of operation they want run, then we disagree fundamentally. I believe they should, and I believe the CBJ has abdicated that in the name of “not knowing about NHL team building.”
 
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Nov 13, 2006
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And also while I'm here, I'll point out that if one reads that article and still comes back with "somebody specific must be to blame for doing us wrong", what with all the crazy shit that has just not gone our way no matter what, then I dunno what else to tell you. Low probablility is not the same as impossible. Sometimes there's nobody you can point the finger at and label as The Bad Guy. Folks end up having to move on nonetheless, not because they Were Evil/Incompetent All Along, but because the adversity gets to people after a while and it starts negatively affecting their work and decisions.

And the distinction matters because when that's the case, complaining about it doesn't make it any better. (Just another hint to those who still think the protest was ever anything other than a tremendous embarassment.)
As an old guy, reading the article was more reliving what I had already lived through.
There's a saying that's applicable here. A fish rots from the head down. What all of these things have in common is this organization has made a more than just unlucky number of bad decisions. Unfortunately, Mr. McConnell and his son - the majority owners made the decisions to hire all of the GMs and presidents who were incapable of making a reasonable amount of good decisions.

Edit- POrty missed a big one, the NHL sent Craig Patrick to consult with the ownership group and Scott Howson when things were bleak after the Carter fiasco. Patrick was a bright spot and helped guide some program improvement. The CBJ canceled the Patrick engagement upon hiring JD.

It always goes back to ownership. Good owners hire strong qualified people to run the team, and support them. This ownership has supported their people, but made terrible hiring decisions in MacLean, Howson, Jarmo, JD and probably Priest too.

Additionally on a personal note, you and I were originally very unhappy about the decision to hire Jarmo. Your sig used to call him Dr. Evil! While he was the GM who had the only real small successes, looking at how his approach to players destroyed the team's relationship with so many important players, I think you were right. He is Dr. Evil.
 
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koteka

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They just did in 2023, in a great year to suck.

We hope. I think you and I agree way more than we disagree, but one place where we disagree is I want the guys at the top of the 2023 draft to prove that they are as good as we expect them to be. I’m not counting those chickens before they hatch.

4 guys from the 2023 draft have played this season. Bedard is as advertised. The other 3 don’t even stand out when compared to other rookies. (Yes, I know they are younger than the other rookies but if they were truly elite they should stand out more.)

1711587522855.png
 
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Nov 13, 2006
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Well feel free to keep reading about the next 4-6 words and I settled on “vision.” Yes I suppose I should have worked it out in multiple drafts before posting it while I was eating breakfast but I was working that idea out and wasn’t sure the word I wanted there but yeah cool I don’t disagree with you and thanks for picking up on it.
You're right. Some time ago, I had the pleasure of meeting a successful NFL team owner in a social situation. We talked a little and I asked him, how his team was always competitive, reached and won some Super Bowls and regularly made the playoffs, when they rarely had high draft picks. Then I look at bad teams like the Browns and a few others and they almost always draft high and never seem to get good. How do you do that? His response? Everyone in the organization knows how we are going to play the game, and what type of players we need. At the draft, in free agency and in trades we are looking for the best player that fits our way of playing. Bad teams just draft the best player available, regardless of fit.

Someone has to supply that vision. I think Hitch tried to, I think Tortorella was able to do it for a while, but I don't think the whole organization has really bought in to any vision.
 

majormajor

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Nowhere did I say NHL team building philosophy. If you don’t believe an owner should cast a vision for the type of operation they want run, then we disagree fundamentally. I believe they should, and I believe the CBJ has abdicated that in the name of “not knowing about NHL team building.”

Do you have examples of visions that might be cast and then implemented by the hockey staff?

Someone has to supply that vision. I think Hitch tried to, I think Tortorella was able to do it for a while, but I don't think the whole organization has really bought in to any vision.


NHL teams that draft for need don't do better. Those players aren't going to be able to help fill those needs for many years, beyond the point where we can predict our needs.

Obviously if the draft was at age 22 it would work better.

A point I've made many times is that building through the draft in the NHL is getting overrated. It's all anyone talks about. But teams that select the best mid-twenties fits for their current needs, even from other club's castoffs, often do very well. Get yourself a Chandler Stephenson or a Mackenzie Weegar and avoid the trouble of having weaker 18-22 year old players in your lineup.
 
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koteka

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A point I've made many times is that building through the draft in the NHL is getting overrated. It's all anyone talks about. But teams that select the best mid-twenties fits for their current needs, even from other club's castoffs, often do very well. Get yourself a Chandler Stephenson or a Mackenzie Weegar and avoid the trouble of having weaker 18-22 year old players in your lineup.

We have had plenty of prospects that have outplayed their draft position and could have been used in trades. But Jarmo has seemed reluctant to trade them for veterans. The original Saad trade is an exception, but it was also 9 years ago.
 

JacketsDavid

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This is what I was talking about earlier...people are wanting a villain here to assign blame to get their pound of flesh. You know sometimes in life you can do everything right but not just luck out, not everything has to have an designated villain to blame all the problems on.
The villian is ownership IMO.
We can blame Priest or JD or Jarmo or the players/coaches but end of the day ownership hires Priest and JD and Jarmo who in turn hires coaches and players.
Now I don't want a Jerry Jones (NFL) but ownership has to set a clear expectation to the guys running the team. Then if the team doesn't hit those objectives those guys will likely leave on their own. Right now we are just in a pattern of being a bad team after a few years with no real hope except "Trust the process" or "Wait for the Kids to develop". Problem is even if 50% of the kids develop the rest of the team is a bottom 5 team. So maybe if you get a top defenseman, a top line C and a #1 Goalie to develop in 2-3 years it maybe makes you an average team? That's not good enough.
 

koteka

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The villian is ownership IMO.

If I were a really rich guy who bought a sports team I would identify owners that have had successful teams and talk to them about how they handle their teams. Heck, I might even seek out bad owners and talk to them.

I don’t think ownership is evil. I just think it isn’t very thorough. And that has led to problems. Hands off doesn’t mean abdicate all responsibility.

If I was a hands off owner and the whole Babcock situation blew up on me, I’d bring in an outside firm to do a post mortem and identify exactly why everything went wrong. So we wouldn’t ever repeat it. And if people had made glaring mistakes, they would be removed from their jobs. Because I would want to do what I could to help the team at a distance. That isn’t micro managing. That is responding to a problem in a responsible way.
 
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KJ Dangler

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We hope. I think you and I agree way more than we disagree, but one place where we disagree is I want the guys at the top of the 2023 draft to prove that they are as good as we expect them to be. I’m not counting those chickens before they hatch.

4 guys from the 2023 draft have played this season. Bedard is as advertised. The other 3 don’t even stand out when compared to other rookies. (Yes, I know they are younger than the other rookies but if they were truly elite they should stand out more.)

View attachment 842418
What’s missed in your graphic , Fantilli averaged what 14 minutes a night .. I’m guessing his stats look much different if he’s getting 20 minutes a night… in actually looking it up Bedard is very close to 20 min a night.. Fantilli is 15 min night, Carlsson 18 min night … That’s a massive difference over 49 games
 
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