A recap of the Jackets History

[Napoli]

Cool. You made your point. It just happens to be meaningless.

You just want to complain, and that’s fine. But do you realize that your whole argument boils down to “what we have is bad, the other thing is bad, the middle is bad. Everything is always bad!” And that’s no argument at all.

Like I said, complaining about ownership is tilting at windmills. We have invented things that might happen to get mad about, when in reality ownership is just… there and can’t be changed. There are so many other things to argue about than that.

(editing for some grammatical clarity)

You have made no point to counteract it (because you can't) so instead you downplay it like I'm just being a pessimist.

Like I said in previous posts, ownership has made plenty of errors and their decision making on who is being put in these positions, deserves to be questioned.

Culture and making your franchise a desirable place to play matters. You can act like they're irrelevant but it's still not reality.

 

[Viqsi]

You have made no point to counteract it (because you can't) so instead you downplay it like I'm just being a pessimist.

Like I said in previous posts, ownership has made plenty of errors and their decision making on who is being put in these positions, deserves to be questioned.

Culture and making your franchise a desirable place to play matters. You can act like they're irrelevant but it's still not reality.

As opposed to acting like ownership is who should be making those things happen and wanting to "fire" them based on that? Hard to call that "reality" one way or the other, but it sure as heck isn't realistic. Again - the majority of pro sports teams owners out there are utterly clueless w/r/t how to run a franchise, and the good ones find people with the credentials and delegate to them. JPMac and friends have endeavored to take that "good ones" approach, which is the right approach, and so far it has not worked. That doesn't mean they're doing the wrong thing.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

That anyone feels any degree of confidence in JDs ability to pick the best possible GM available boggles the mind.

Nobody seemed to have this complaint 10 years ago. Hell, even 6 years ago.

I still contend Jarmo drove this team the ground after JD left. I think he was brought back because people knew Jarmo was running it into the ground. I think his fault lies on what has transpired since he came back because it seems they let Jarmo keep too much control and has been slow to react. That and the Babcock fiasco. Everybody is to f*cking blame for that one and nobody gets a pass.

 

[Napoli]

As opposed to acting like ownership is who should be making those things happen and wanting to "fire" them based on that? Hard to call that "reality" one way or the other, but it sure as heck isn't realistic. Again - the majority of pro sports teams owners out there are utterly clueless w/r/t how to run a franchise, and the good ones find people with the credentials and delegate to them. JPMac and friends have endeavored to take that "good ones" approach, which is the right approach, and so far it has not worked. That doesn't mean they're doing the wrong thing.

We can go on and on but I think I've gotten my point across so I'll stop harping on it.

I'll end my tirade with a simple question, should JD, someone who has already failed, be choosing the next GM? Is that NOT the wrong thing?

 

[Viqsi]

We can go on and on but I think I've gotten my point across so I'll stop harping on it.

I'll end my tirade with a simple question, should JD, someone who has already failed, be choosing the next GM? Is that NOT the wrong thing?

I find it extremely questionable but I'm not going to outright call it axiomatically the wrong thing. In light of the Babcock fiasco I would certainly be inclined to prefer someone better, but I'm not convinced that option is or was available under the circumstances and I think the odds of doing worse are prohibitively high. That having been said, everything we've heard from him so far about how the process is being set up sounds good, practical, and dilligent. So overall I'm withholding judgement until I see how it unfolds rather than preemptively presuming it's inevitably going to be bad.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

No, it's not. That's the fundamental point I've been working to make here: sometimes there is no villain. Folks are pointing to ownership becuase that's the last remaining original link in the chain left to potentially blame - given the desired premise of "it's always been terrible all along and there is exactly one (1) fundamental thing that needs fixing to make it better" - and that's all the evidence anyone has.

This isn't going to be solved by Finding The Right Owner and then having everything good happen from there, and so the motivated reasoning that follows from that and leads to insisting that JP Mac is therefore a bad owner is unnecessary, untruthful, unhelpful, and antiethical.


EDIT: In the IT world, there's a concept refered to as "cargo cult programming". It's attempting to make a program work not by understanding what your code actually is going to do, but by finding snippets and examples that look like they might accomplish what you're after, blindly including them, and hoping for the desired result. Sometimes you do get what you want (if you're lucky), but frequently all you end up with is a confused mess. I submit that this notion of "well, we've replaced everyone else but the owner, so now we have to replace the owner" is a prime example of proposed cargo cult franchise management.

I think replacing the owner is extremely risky. By all accounts, McConnell and co. are good owners who support their people, andstay out of day to day operations. Even better they seem to be willing to write the checks when asked. Who else has the wherewithal to own an NHL franchise that absolutely wants that franchise to reside in Columbus? I'd like to see our ownership group, which includes more than just John McConnell, get some assistance from an advisor or a group of advisors with real hockey operations experience in their background. It''s out there, in fact we saw the NHL make that same assessment when Howson was GM and then sent some help in 2012. Sonny Wirtz in Chicago got Scotty Bowman to advise him in the early 2000s when they took a terrible operation to Stanley Cup champions. Bill Foley in Vegas apparently did something similar.

Very few owners have the necessary knowledge and experience in sports management to make the franchise operations decisions. Some try to do it anyway and those franchises usually flounder.


As someone who spent 30 years in the IT world, I wouldn't compare modeling other successful sports franchises with cargo cult programming. It's more analogous to a Best Practices approach.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Yes, I am in fact talking about picking head coaches and POHOPs. John Davidson was famously hired on the advice of the National Hockey League. So was Ken Hitchcock, for that matter. I believe Howson was also an outside consult hire but I'm not as certain there. Other decisions folks have taken issue with - such as hiring Kekalainen - have followed from those.

I believe you are mistaken about the Hitchcock and Howson hires. I'm not sure about Davidson. All that I'm aware of that has been reported was his relationship with Jeff Rimer. Considering the timing,it is possible the NHL through Patrick recommended Davidson.

 

[Cujorulesdtown9]

Its always been interesting to me, back in 2016, jpm did a interview for the business journal, and it talked a bit about him not wanting to be a mark cuban, and him staying in the background.

(every answer was him saying he trusted priest, jd, jarmo to do the right things) but what kind of stuck with me is he said most information he got about hockey was from his kids and grandkids, despite saying he was watching games "most nights".

I understand you run a billion dollar business, but if im sinking millions into a venture, id think id personally be a bit invested in it outside of just throwing cash at it. Ive always felt there was a huge interest difference in this from jpm to jhm. Jhm seemed more excited and invested, you saw him with the players a lot (when his health allowed).

But that aside, its not that they are bad, its just been a bad ride built on a ton of bad decisions and bad luck.
Its been like a game of lights out, we would get one problem solved, and 2 more parts needed fixing.

And just freak injuries, freak deaths, player issues, failed development, theres just a lot of bad that happened.

Im not sure you can say anyone is really at fault, it just seems like the pieces never really come together, and the few times they did, it wasnt long lasting.

Its just been a rough ride with not a lot of highs.

 

[Jovavic]

I ultimately blame all the old people that voted against the arena to bring the Whalers here. Sure, they would've played in an airplane hanger while it was being built, how's that any worse than playing in a mall or a college rink?

 

[majormajor]

I think replacing the owner is extremely risky. By all accounts, McConnell and co. are good owners who support their people, andstay out of day to day operations. Even better they seem to be willing to write the checks when asked. Who else has the wherewithal to own an NHL franchise that absolutely wants that franchise to reside in Columbus?

I forgot to mention that part about them covering our losses each year. Kind of important! They're always willing to spend and we shouldn't take it for granted.

By the way @TaketheCannoli I love that beautiful Lokomotiv logo. They've got Yegor Surin who I hope we can draft. Gavrikov is an alumnus of that team.

Its always been interesting to me, back in 2016, jpm did a interview for the business journal, and it talked a bit about him not wanting to be a mark cuban, and him staying in the background.

(every answer was him saying he trusted priest, jd, jarmo to do the right things) but what kind of stuck with me is he said most information he got about hockey was from his kids and grandkids, despite saying he was watching games "most nights".

I'm sure JPM has a lot of opinions. You watch the same team for years you'll have ideas about what you like to see.

At the same time, he's smart enough to know that his opinions aren't going to be helpful in the public, and aren't as well founded compared to someone who played many years in the league and has been Team President of three clubs (who @Cyclones Rock calls "the broadcaster", as if JD isn't a real hockey guy.)

 

[ClevelandJacketFan]

Actually...there are MANY people who WANT this style of leadership. I have seen so many people begging for Jimmy Haslam...completely no meme...to save them from the McConnels because at least he can build a winner like he did with the Crew. You wanna know why the Crew won? Its because Haslam was hands off and just wrote the checks...the Browns on the other hand....yeah...Halsen pretty much forced his FO to pay an ungodly amount of money for a player who was extremely damaged goods. was suspended for his actions, caused a massive PR issue on the team where they had to spend extra money to push out a new media campaign to mitigate the signing, gave up 3 years of 1st round draft picks with an offense that was built around the run and reset the entire QB payout market for a team that's only saving grace is its extremely powerful defense which got them to the playoffs but with no offense got CRUSHED there. They want that owner who will go big and will be like Vegas to sacrifice the entire future for a chance now. Haslam is NOTORIUS for constantly changing GMs/direction which is why they can never figure out an identity or let the GM cook to see if the process will work. If it wasn't for the Panthers (or even Arizona I forgot how cheap they are by NFL standards) Haslam would probably be the worst owner in the NFL right now and easily part of the top 10 in professional sports along side Dolan.

I'd like to point out that this is mostly hersay and that Haslam has turned into a very good NFL owner, including having both his HC and GM be on their 2nd contract soon, not to mention he's finally listened to his people he put in charge.

Same with the Crew, although I think he was lucky enough that Baz was already with the Crew when they came in. I think Jimmy HAS figured out the whole sports management thing, finally. If it were 2017, I'd totally agree.

Regardless, I believe the McConnell family has been largely fine as owners. The biggest problem, is that I feel the GM's for the Blue Jackets largely haven't understood what it takes to take a team from talented to a great team. It's why we won so many games for a while, yet still found little to no playoff success.

Hopefully this time, they'll get it right. They have gotten substantially better each time they had to hire a new FO.

 

[koteka]

At the same time, he's smart enough to know that his opinions aren't going to be helpful in the public, and aren't as well founded compared to someone who played many years in the league and has been Team President of three clubs (who @Cyclones Rock calls "the broadcaster", as if JD isn't a real hockey guy.)

JD has forgotten more about hockey than I’ll ever know, but I do know a lot about managing large, complex projects. And I can tell there is a lot JD doesn’t know about managing large projects/organizations. While he spent most of his young life playing hockey and then broadcasting, I spent most of my young life studying statistics and evaluation techniques and solving real world problems. I would agree that McConnell shouldn’t routinely air his opinions in public, but I totally disagree with the idea that other people’s opinions aren’t as well founded as JD’s when it comes to running a hockey business. Heck, an undergraduate business major should know enough to have avoided the whole Babcock mess or at least known enough to not make it worse once it started to come out.

 

[Youngguns80]

Look I have largely kept quiet but some of these comments floor me.

The owner founded this team for Columbus, Ohio. A lot of people scream they want to hear from ownership and I don’t, he is not a hockey aficionado. I also don’t want another ownership group that prefer other destination cities. Last they don’t nickel and dime the franchise. So we don’t have a lot of other franchise issues but maybe give a shorter timeframe/tenure on the front office staff to produce.

The plan, tone and culture ultimately comes down to the front-office and coaching staff, they set that for the players. If players don’t play we trade them or send them down. The owner sets the expectations and I highly doubt he says lose.

Also, please stop comparing your real life experience with running a franchise. They are the same conceptually in a business sense but the products are vastly different - 18-36yr old men. Try the military as a closer comparison ( I don’t think any of us run the military )?

As fans passions run high as they should. Just take a breath and go outside and touch grass. I had to especially after the past 2 seasons.

 

[JacketsDavid]

How many people on the hockey side does ownership hire? One?

I would say the person they hire is the one responsible for building a team culture. In hockey there should be minimal interaction between ownership and those below the Team President.

I don't think it's one. They hire Priest's role, they hired JD and they hired Jarmo. So current ownership hired at least 3 that started the season in their roles. It's also very likely ownership had significant input into Babcock's hire.

 

[koteka]

Also, please stop comparing your real life experience with running a franchise. They are the same conceptually in a business sense but the products are vastly different - 18-36yr old men. Try the military as a closer comparison ( I don’t think any of us run the military )?

I completely disagree with this. A lot of the problems started this year with a bad hiring which we later found out involved one candidate. This is directly comparable to most people’s work experiences.

Then we have had communications issues galore causing our young players to be unhappy. Again, go into any break room in America and it is easy to see if people trust their management and believe there is good communication. This is very comparable to work experiences from Burger King to tech companies to sports franchises.

I mostly manage 24-36 year old men because my field has way more men than women (it has been changing, but is still mostly men) and the success of most of my projects is dependent on their output. So I think I know something about getting young men to reach their potential. I also manage people from a variety of countries, and I have even managed a Slovakian with a major chip on his shoulder. I could take the approach that if I say something it is their responsibility to understand, but I don’t find that to be very effective. I work very hard to make sure that expectations are understood by everyone. This to me is a major failure of the CBJ. They tell a kid to get an apartment, but then act all butthurt when the kid is confused because he is sent to the AHL and his agent says something about it to the media. To me that failure is not on the kid, but on the Jackets’ ability to clearly communicate to the players.

 

[Monk]

and his agent says something about it to the media.

This is one of the key areas where your "I manage men this age too!" analogy breaks down for me, though I'll add that I agree with Youngguns on this one, generally.

 

[koteka]

This is one of the key areas where your "I manage men this age too!" analogy breaks down for me, though I'll add that I agree with Youngguns on this one, generally.

Yes, and the young guys I manage can apply for other jobs any time they want, and they have no collective bargaining agreement that ties them to my organization for a certain number of years. So I have received very direct and immediate feedback to my ability to manage. But the main point is I can put the onus of effective communication on myself or others. I find it far more effective to put the onus on myself and not blame others when they don’t understand me.

 

[Monk]

Yes, and the young guys I manage can apply for other jobs any time they want, and they have no collective bargaining agreement that ties them to my organization for a certain number of years. So I have received very direct and immediate feedback to my ability to manage. But the main point is I can put the onus of effective communication on myself or others. I find it far more effective to put the onus on myself and not blame others when they don’t understand me.

Yes and I didn't communicate my point very effectively just now.

What we know about how CBJ communicates is mostly via the media, via players or their agents that are varying degrees of disgruntled. What you know about how you communicate is quite a bit more... known.

 

[squashmaple]

I completely disagree with this. A lot of the problems started this year with a bad hiring which we later found out involved one candidate. This is directly comparable to most people’s work experiences.

Then we have had communications issues galore causing our young players to be unhappy. Again, go into any break room in America and it is easy to see if people trust their management and believe there is good communication. This is very comparable to work experiences from Burger King to tech companies to sports franchises.

I mostly manage 24-36 year old men because my field has way more men than women (it has been changing, but is still mostly men) and the success of most of my projects is dependent on their output. So I think I know something about getting young men to reach their potential. I also manage people from a variety of countries, and I have even managed a Slovakian with a major chip on his shoulder. I could take the approach that if I say something it is their responsibility to understand, but I don’t find that to be very effective. I work very hard to make sure that expectations are understood by everyone. This to me is a major failure of the CBJ. They tell a kid to get an apartment, but then act all butthurt when the kid is confused because he is sent to the AHL and his agent says something about it to the media. To me that failure is not on the kid, but on the Jackets’ ability to clearly communicate to the players.

Oh, please. I managed restaurants for over a decade, therefore I’m also an expert at managing 18-25yo men, right? Our regular job experience is about as applicable to the NHL as it is to NASA. You’re not wrong that the org does seem to have a problem communicating with players (including Jarmo and his RFA hammer), but the rest is self-important bloviating.

Also what are you talking about with “A lot of the problems started this year with a bad hiring which we later found out involved one candidate.” The only hire they’ve said was the only candidate was Jarmo eleven years ago. If you’re calling that a bad hiring now, please just go be a fan of another franchise at this point because it feels like you’re only here because of sunk cost fallacy. If you’re talking about Babcock, then we haven’t heard anything that he was their only candidate. He may have been the only finalist, but he was hardly the only candidate.

 

[Monk]

You’re not wrong that the org does seem to have a problem communicating with players

I agree with the rest of your post, but will continue to quibble with this. 11 years of super public management and Jarmo has, in my opinion, not that many examples of poor communication in the grand scheme of things. And even those are, at times, squishy and one-sided.

 

[koteka]

Oh, please. I managed restaurants for over a decade, therefore I’m also an expert at managing 18-25yo men, right? Our regular job experience is about as applicable to the NHL as it is to NASA. You’re not wrong that the org does seem to have a problem communicating with players (including Jarmo and his RFA hammer), but the rest is self-important bloviating.

Also what are you talking about with “A lot of the problems started this year with a bad hiring which we later found out involved one candidate.” The only hire they’ve said was the only candidate was Jarmo eleven years ago. If you’re calling that a bad hiring now, please just go be a fan of another franchise at this point because it feels like you’re only here because of sunk cost fallacy. If you’re talking about Babcock, then we haven’t heard anything that he was their only candidate. He may have been the only finalist, but he was hardly the only candidate.

Babcock - one interview.

Jeez, we have had numerous example this year that show there is a communications problem between the team and the young players. Starting with Babcock (“oh, it was just a misunderstanding”), but also including various AHL assignments. My guess is if you were any good at working in a restaurant you could have told the team how they could better handle communications. Why is there an assumption that these guys are any good at skills such as talking to young players when every indication is the team is horrible at it.

There are poorly run tech companies, restaurants, and hockey teams. There are well run tech companies, restaurants, and hockey teams. You will find plenty of similarities in poorly run organizations. They treat certain people better than others and cause resentments. They aren’t clear in expectations. They promote the wrong guy. They don’t do a thorough enough background checks.

 

[koteka]

I mean we can start pulling out Jim Collins or other business writers and analyze the Jackets to show how normal they are in their screw ups and that they aren’t that different from regular businesses.

Anyone want to give examples of what the Jackets have done along the 5 Stages of Decline? Anyone? The Severson contract was definitely stage 4. I’d say Elvis’s contract was stage 2. The Johnny Hockey contract seemed to ignore downside risk of signing a 29 year old coming off a career year. Anyone want to point out some success that might have led to hubris? Not drafting Puljujarvi, maybe?

 

[majormajor]

I agree with the rest of your post, but will continue to quibble with this. 11 years of super public management and Jarmo has, in my opinion, not that many examples of poor communication in the grand scheme of things. And even those are, at times, squishy and one-sided.

We aren't privy to barely any of it.

For instance, JD said that Jarmo told Jiricek that he could (or would) be sent down. Maybe he didn't phrase it well? An English conversation between a Finn and a Czech kid just learning English, what could go wrong.

How the heck would we know what the words were, but it won't stop the haters here from making up their own version of reality.

There are poorly run tech companies, restaurants, and hockey teams. There are well run tech companies, restaurants, and hockey teams.

I don't entirely disagree but you shouldn't reason backwards from that, that everything we do is wrong and everything this other team does is right.

Remember when Fleury got "stabbed in the back"?

Remember the 3 time cup winning team covering up for a rapist?

Remember the Bruins trying to sign Mitch Miller and the player leadership spoke out against it?

 

[majormajor]

I mean we can start pulling out Jim Collins or other business writers and analyze the Jackets to show how normal they are in their screw ups and that they aren’t that different from regular businesses.

View attachment 844432

Anyone want to give examples of what the Jackets have done along the 5 Stages of Decline? Anyone? The Severson contract was definitely stage 4. I’d say Elvis’s contract was stage 2. The Johnny Hockey contract seemed to ignore downside risk of signing a 29 year old coming off a career year. Anyone want to point out some success that might have led to hubris? Not drafting Puljujarvi, maybe?

This is so forced.

You're going to hurt your back with the amount of shoehorning you're trying to do.

 

[CharlotteJacket]

My only concern with JPMac is sometimes he's slow on the draw. Nobody wants a Dolan, but Jarmo was given too long. When Jarmo and JD first came, they recognized we were a team without any high end scoring and set about to correct it. First with the Saad trade which eventually became a trade for Panarin. Not bad. Throw in the RyJo trade for Seth Jones and then the trading deadline acquisitions,that team was the best in CBJ history by a mile and when it all fell apart, you could hear it in Jarmo's voice with what a gut punch it was. Jarmo then came out with his loyalty oath comments and we started gathering anyone with a connection to Columbus. That was Jarmo's zenith and it is rare that a GM can build and then rebuild the same franchise. As tough as a decision as it would have been, Jarmo should have been replaced three years ago.