Prospect Info: 5th Overall Pick 2020: Who Do The Sens Draft

[Burrowsaurus]

Seriously? He was incredible and had more chemistry with Mcdavid than anyone.

yeah lol what can i say i was flat out wrong. i watch him play now and hes ultra cerebral out there. in the WJCs i just saw a go go go third liner who would become an NHLer for sure but no bonafide first line center.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think the Point v Rossi comparison is a really good one to consider in terms of draft status.

It's not like Rossi is being treated like Corey Locke for his skating. A good comparison. Locke's skating was average by OHL standards, Rossi's is not. He is a fantastic skater overall, who just doesn't have the elite acceleration and top gear. But skating is obviously more than just speed, and acceleration and top gear can improve a bit relative to your cohort, if you work hard. No doubt Rossi will do that. But top speed for a small center is important, so he'll take at least a slight hit for it. Put it this way - it's the reason he's not seen as a Patrick Kane and Jack Hughes type given his production. That missing gear is the difference between pushing Lafrenniere and being 5-10th. A fair drop I'd say.

SoRossi is obviously getting loads of respect as a potential scoring line center as a top 10 pick in this draft compared to how Point was seen. But keep in mind that while Point was a bit smaller, he was a MUCH better skater. Rossi's IQ and playmaking likely considered better, although Point was seen as an elite center in this regard too. Point's numbers weren't at Rossi's level, but relative to his team mates, his were actually better. He scored over 90 points in his draft year, with no one else scoring more than 55 points. Scoring 80% more points than anyone else on your team is a crazy high number. These were numbers discussed a lot on the prospect board re Point.

I'm not sure if people recall, but Point was arguably the biggest faller that draft. Kudos to Craig Button who had him 17th overall. Some NHL GM probably wish they listened to him. Certainly us taking Miles Gendron ahead of Point was exhasperating to me. I thought we should have taken him in the 2nd. THN also had him 42nd. And many others gave him 1st round grades. There were a lot of people on these boards who adored Point as a scoring line center, and it's a great example where the NHL scouts really dropped the ball and if someone had just used a consensus ranking, would have likely grabbed Point a round "Too soon" and been duly rewarded. When he was taken in the 3rd, it made a lot of us feel sort of stupid about being so bullish, other than knowing NHL scouts could have been wrong again.

Circling back to Rossi, I think players like Point are helping Rossi get a bit more respect. But there is still a skating delta between the two players, so it's not like Rossi is a sure fire ppg player. And someone critical of his skating on why he should say be 8th instead of 5th is a pretty small criticism and ranking hit in the grand scheme of things. It's also a fair question.

Point had to work on his skating to become the player he is today as well. Tampa had him work with Barb Underhill. Its not uncommon .
"They then put Underhill on his file, even dispatching her to Moose Jaw to work with him on his skating. What organization does that for a third-rounder? Part of it was a lack of leg strength, but Underhill discovered early that much of what was holding Point back in his skating was his ankle flexion, meaning his foot naturally gravitated to pointing up to his shin instead of staying straightly aligned. She conditioned Point to concentrate on getting up more on the ball of his foot, where he would be able to get so much more push and power in his stride. “I just worked on it and worked out with her and I’m better at it,” Point said. “I’m still not great, I’m not perfect, but it’s something that helped me for sure. It’s exciting to see results, but still lots of work to do.”

"on the ice too:"

 

[DrSense]

I don't know if its just me but im always impressed by his acceleration. he consistently explodes for loose pucks and is first on them. he does it with the puck as well. slowing play down and lulling the opposition and out of nowhere exploding for a chance or for empty space. Very Alfie like.

I do agree his top speed still needs some work but with how hard he works im sure hes gonna get there.

He is definitely above average acceleration for OHL, no doubt. But when you get to the NHL, it's whole new world. Acceleration would likely be below average next year, and he'd likely be average in a few years as he naturally gets a bit faster and stronger and works out. Might have potential to be above average down the road with work, which he's certainly not afraid of. Amazing kid in that regard.

 

[DrSense]

Point had to work on his skating to become the player he is today as well. Tampa had him work with Barb Underhill. Its not uncommon .
"They then put Underhill on his file, even dispatching her to Moose Jaw to work with him on his skating. What organization does that for a third-rounder? Part of it was a lack of leg strength, but Underhill discovered early that much of what was holding Point back in his skating was his ankle flexion, meaning his foot naturally gravitated to pointing up to his shin instead of staying straightly aligned. She conditioned Point to concentrate on getting up more on the ball of his foot, where he would be able to get so much more push and power in his stride. “I just worked on it and worked out with her and I’m better at it,” Point said. “I’m still not great, I’m not perfect, but it’s something that helped me for sure. It’s exciting to see results, but still lots of work to do.”

"on the ice too:"

Yeah, that was a great article. I would say still though, that Point was a better skater at the same age. It wasn't the thing people criticized him for (it was his frame), but he certainly is one of those guys who had a small hitch in his heels that when corrected, made a big difference in terms of now pushing McDavid level lap times. I don't think you can count on Rossi getting to a sub 14 second lap in his life time to be honest though. The reality is, every NHL draftee goes through stuff with skating coaches and rarely is there an impact like that. To expect Rossi's skating to improve more than others is probably reasonable based on his work ethic, but only slightly, and not necessarily because of a technical improvement (again possible, but perhaps Perfetti and Holtz are more likely to improve there?).

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Yeah, that was a great article. I would say still though, that Point was a better skater at the same age. It wasn't the thing people criticized him for (it was his frame), but he certainly is one of those guys who had a small hitch in his heels that when corrected, made a big difference in terms of now pushing McDavid level lap times. I don't think you can count on Rossi getting to a sub 14 second lap in his life time to be honest though. The reality is, every NHL draftee goes through stuff with skating coaches and rarely is there an impact like that. To expect Rossi's skating to improve more than others is probably reasonable based on his work ethic, but only slightly, and not necessarily because of a technical improvement (again possible, but perhaps Perfetti and Holtz are more likely to improve there?).

who is ACTUALLY criticizing rossi for his skating? hes a good skater the article itself says points skating was "acceptable" is rossis skating now not acceptable? its like his skating has magically gotten worse and worse since we started discussing him lol.

 

[DrSense]

Not to mention that many of the same things were said about both players in their draft profiles. Also not to mention that Brayden Point put up 91 pts in 72 Games in his draft year (1.26 pts /g) and Marco Rossi put up 120 in 56 (2.14 pts /g) thats very close to 1 pt/g difference. Also Rossi is over 20 lbs bigger than Point in their Draft years. So given that both were considered to have similar playing styles .. one clearly surpasses the other in size, strength and statistically to adequately justify a higher ranking.

Safe is a consideration. It should not be at the top of the list imo. If you value safe too highly you will end up with a roster full of tweeners. I do not agree that Rossi would rank low on the Safe scale in that 4-7 range (Drysdale, Perfetti, Raymond, Rossi, Sanderson) .. of course the term would need to be specifically defined . You could safely project Schneider to be a bottom pair NHL D and have a lot of confidence he reaches that.

You fell into the pure points trap there though. There were also four players on the 67's who had as many points as Brayden Point. It was the highest scoring team in the highest scoring league in junior hockey in many years. Relative to his team mates, he still put up great numbers - 50% more than the next closest player. But if you put Rossi on Points team in his draft year, would he have got 100 points? Probably not when the next closest player had 50. Or he might have. That's why you have to look at. Or someone can throw Corey Locke numbers at you too if you just zero in on ppg. Have to be careful with ppg on it's own (while not ignoring it either).

I always bring this point up with Mike Green as a scoring D. He didn't put up huge numbers in his draft year - 39 points in 59 games. But he was on one of the lowest scoring teams in league history and was actually the highest PPG player on his team by a good stretch. As a d-man. If he was on a higher scoring team, he might have 80 points and teams would have more easily seen his offensive potential (which was a ppg NHL player and 30 goals at his peak).

Looking at the scoring relative to the team is critical IMO. Rossi still looks good through that lens, don't get me wrong, but guys like Point jump out at you with their production.

I'd argue from this draft, Seth Jarvis is another good example of that.

 

[bert]

yeah lol what can i say i was flat out wrong. i watch him play now and hes ultra cerebral out there. in the WJCs i just saw a go go go third liner who would become an NHLer for sure but no bonafide first line center.

I mean I dont think anyone thought he could be this good. But personally i thought his hockey iq was really impressive. Always around the puck, the back hand pass he made for the tap in to nick paul is when i really started to be sold he was gonna be a player. Doing it at 18 years old on such a stacked team was an indicator too.

Was also around the time I started to get worried about Lazar, he was chopping wood out there and did not look like he belonged anywhere near Mcdavids wing

 

[Liver King]

At the end of the day were all seeing Rossi as a top 8 pick, high high end talent at the top of the draft.

The only reason there is a discussion is because Drysdale Sanderson Raymond and Perfetti are available at 5 as well. I have criticisms for all these players, but I also think they are all absolute studs.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yeah, that was a great article. I would say still though, that Point was a better skater at the same age. It wasn't the thing people criticized him for (it was his frame), but he certainly is one of those guys who had a small hitch in his heels that when corrected, made a big difference in terms of now pushing McDavid level lap times. I don't think you can count on Rossi getting to a sub 14 second lap in his life time to be honest though. The reality is, every NHL draftee goes through stuff with skating coaches and rarely is there an impact like that. To expect Rossi's skating to improve more than others is probably reasonable based on his work ethic, but only slightly, and not necessarily because of a technical improvement (again possible, but perhaps Perfetti and Holtz are more likely to improve there?).

Hard to measure ,, but your guess is as good as anyone's. IMO, like I have said before Rossi needs to improve there, but I don't think its a glaring a weakness that will hold him back . He is too good a player ..passable speed with more immediate first step improvements required, very good on his edges, high end Iq, vision, 200 foot player. I really like Brayden Point and have for some time. He and Rossi are similar in their drive, work ethic, complete game play combined with an ability to put up points. I do think Rossi's resume speaks for itself regarding his ability to put up points and I am not going to try to discount his accomplishments. Its easy to say this player woulda coulda done that too if, and Rossi would not have done this if.. I just tip my hat to him and say way to go man.. what you did was absolutely great. OHL coaches polls support that in several facets of the game. Way too much dissecting and hair splitting and what if this and that going on. Rossi is not perfect, none of the prospects typically discusssed in that 4-7 range are. Remains to be seen how much Rossi can improve that 1st step and how much straight line speed can be improved but does he have the work ethic and desire to make sufficient improvement .. I think he does. Not sure how we can project that other than through his commitment level at this point.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yeah, that was a great article. I would say still though, that Point was a better skater at the same age. It wasn't the thing people criticized him for (it was his frame), but he certainly is one of those guys who had a small hitch in his heels that when corrected, made a big difference in terms of now pushing McDavid level lap times. I don't think you can count on Rossi getting to a sub 14 second lap in his life time to be honest though. The reality is, every NHL draftee goes through stuff with skating coaches and rarely is there an impact like that. To expect Rossi's skating to improve more than others is probably reasonable based on his work ethic, but only slightly, and not necessarily because of a technical improvement (again possible, but perhaps Perfetti and Holtz are more likely to improve there?).

yah ok . makes sense ; like to see the slo mo on that. Dr. lol

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

At the end of the day were all seeing Rossi as a top 8 pick, high high end talent at the top of the draft.

The only reason there is a discussion is because Drysdale Sanderson Raymond and Perfetti are available at 5 as well. I have criticisms for all these players, but I also think they are all absolute studs.

Agreed.

 

[DJB]

I think the Point v Rossi comparison is a really good one to consider in terms of draft status.

It's not like Rossi is being treated like Corey Locke for his skating. A good comparison. Locke's skating was average by OHL standards, Rossi's is not. He is a fantastic skater overall, who just doesn't have the elite acceleration and top gear. But skating is obviously more than just speed, and acceleration and top gear can improve a bit relative to your cohort, if you work hard. No doubt Rossi will do that. But top speed for a small center is important, so he'll take at least a slight hit for it. Put it this way - it's the reason he's not seen as a Patrick Kane and Jack Hughes type given his production. That missing gear is the difference between pushing Lafrenniere and being 5-10th. A fair drop I'd say.

SoRossi is obviously getting loads of respect as a potential scoring line center as a top 10 pick in this draft compared to how Point was seen. But keep in mind that while Point was a bit smaller, he was a MUCH better skater. Rossi's IQ and playmaking likely considered better, although Point was seen as an elite center in this regard too. Point's numbers weren't at Rossi's level, but relative to his team mates, his were actually better. He scored over 90 points in his draft year, with no one else scoring more than 55 points. Scoring 80% more points than anyone else on your team is a crazy high number. These were numbers discussed a lot on the prospect board re Point.

I'm not sure if people recall, but Point was arguably the biggest faller that draft. Kudos to Craig Button who had him 17th overall. Some NHL GM probably wish they listened to him. Certainly us taking Miles Gendron ahead of Point was exhasperating to me. I thought we should have taken him in the 2nd. THN also had him 42nd. And many others gave him 1st round grades. There were a lot of people on these boards who adored Point as a scoring line center, and it's a great example where the NHL scouts really dropped the ball and if someone had just used a consensus ranking, would have likely grabbed Point a round "Too soon" and been duly rewarded. When he was taken in the 3rd, it made a lot of us feel sort of stupid about being so bullish, other than knowing NHL scouts could have been wrong again.

Circling back to Rossi, I think players like Point are helping Rossi get a bit more respect. But there is still a skating delta between the two players, so it's not like Rossi is a sure fire ppg player. And someone critical of his skating on why he should say be 8th instead of 5th is a pretty small criticism and ranking hit in the grand scheme of things. It's also a fair question.

While you make many valid "points" (no pun intended).

The difference in situation between Point and Rossi is the cost/risk. One was drafted in the 3rd vs Rossi who is likely going top 10.

If a 3rd busts no big loss. A top 10 pick? That costs people their jobs.

 

[DJB]

The one thing about Rossi is I look at a player like John Tavares. Somewhat similar junior players but in much different bodies. Both extremely cerebral and both in junior had good puck protection, playmaking etc.

Tavares was able to improve his skating a ton and now hes been one of the best players in the NHL (until he got to Toronto mind you).

I'm extremely curious to see how Rossi NHL career unfolds.

 

[SensFactor]

I have no doubt in my mind Rossi will be a top 6 player in the NHL. Cerebral player that has all the tools to put up consistent points.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

You fell into the pure points trap there though. There were also four players on the 67's who had as many points as Brayden Point. It was the highest scoring team in the highest scoring league in junior hockey in many years. Relative to his team mates, he still put up great numbers - 50% more than the next closest player. But if you put Rossi on Points team in his draft year, would he have got 100 points? Probably not when the next closest player had 50. Or he might have. That's why you have to look at. Or someone can throw Corey Locke numbers at you too if you just zero in on ppg. Have to be careful with ppg on it's own (while not ignoring it either).

I always bring this point up with Mike Green as a scoring D. He didn't put up huge numbers in his draft year - 39 points in 59 games. But he was on one of the lowest scoring teams in league history and was actually the highest PPG player on his team by a good stretch. As a d-man. If he was on a higher scoring team, he might have 80 points and teams would have more easily seen his offensive potential (which was a ppg NHL player and 30 goals at his peak).

Looking at the scoring relative to the team is critical IMO. Rossi still looks good through that lens, don't get me wrong, but guys like Point jump out at you with their production.

I'd argue from this draft, Seth Jarvis is another good example of that.

Corey locke is a bad example here. He was unanimously seen before the draft and after the draft as a junior star exclusively.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

The one thing about Rossi is I look at a player like John Tavares. Somewhat similar junior players but in much different bodies. Both extremely cerebral and both in junior had good puck protection, playmaking etc.

Tavares was able to improve his skating a ton and now hes been one of the best players in the NHL (until he got to Toronto mind you).

I'm extremely curious to see how Rossi NHL career unfolds.

They’re not similar prospects in terms of tiers. Tavares was always seen as a potential superstar

 

[TheDebater]

Not to mention that many of the same things were said about both players in their draft profiles. Also not to mention that Brayden Point put up 91 pts in 72 Games in his draft year (1.26 pts /g) and Marco Rossi put up 120 in 56 (2.14 pts /g) thats very close to 1 pt/g difference. Also Rossi is over 20 lbs bigger than Point in their Draft years. So given that both were considered to have similar playing styles .. one clearly surpasses the other in size, strength and statistically to adequately justify a higher ranking.

Safe is a consideration. It should not be at the top of the list imo. If you value safe too highly you will end up with a roster full of tweeners. I do not agree that Rossi would rank low on the Safe scale in that 4-7 range (Drysdale, Perfetti, Raymond, Rossi, Sanderson) .. of course the term would need to be specifically defined . You could safely project Schneider to be a bottom pair NHL D and have a lot of confidence he reaches that.

I do not disagree with anything you said. Simply stated, Point went in round 3 and in a re-draft of 2014, he would arguably go 3rd overall behind Draisaitl and Pastrnak. My point is he was not even selected as a late 1st rounder and if you take a look at the stats for players drafted in round 2 of 2014, it is absolutely terrible, almost every team missed the boat on selecting a top player.

Rossi is without question a top 10 pick, maybe even top 5 but that is where the debate lies.

Braydon Point didn't set top 20 all time pts/g records for his age bracket in his league,

Kane was 5'9 160 his draft year. Nobody questioned whether he was worth the risk, and Rossi funny enough just had the best production in an 18 year old OHL season since Kane.

Patrick Kane is one of my favourite players on the ice, he is dynamic and an absolute marvel with the puck because his skating is elite. Rossi's knock, if you want to call it that, is his skating. Simply put, smaller players are expected to be better skaters, they almost have to be to survive. @Sens of Anarchy posted a great article above, with regards to Point working on his skating, can we deny that without that improvement he would have been troubled to succeed at the NHL level?

That bodes well for Rossi as if he can find a way to mirror Point's skating improvement, he will be a top 5 player in the NHL before we know it.

 

[Micklebot]

Patrick Kane is one of my favourite players on the ice, he is dynamic and an absolute marvel with the puck because his skating is elite. Rossi's knock, if you want to call it that, is his skating. Simply put, smaller players are expected to be better skaters, they almost have to be to survive. @Sens of Anarchy posted a great article above, with regards to Point working on his skating, can we deny that without that improvement he would have been troubled to succeed at the NHL level?

That bodes well for Rossi as if he can find a way to mirror Point's skating improvement, he will be a top 5 player in the NHL before we know it.

There is a giant chasm between Point the draftee that needed work on his skating and Rossi the draft eligible player, so acknowleging Point would have difficulties had he not improved his skating is creating a false equivalency.

 

[DJB]

They’re not similar prospects in terms of tiers. Tavares was always seen as a potential superstar

I agree and I never said that either. JT was slam dunk top 2 player all the way through with Hedman.

And truthfully, I think Hedman > Tavares right now.

But that's a whole other discussion.

I was merely comparing Rossi and Tavares with their skating and IQ and such.

 

[HSF]

Rossi reminds me a lot of Crosby. Obviously not the same level but in terms of mindset, size and game play

 

[bert]

Rossi reminds me a lot of Crosby. Obviously not the same level but in terms of mindset, size and game play

If he was Crosby's size he would be in the conversation for number 2.

 

[jhutter]

If he was Crosby's size he would be in the conversation for number 2.

Rossi is an inch or and inch and a half shorter, and heavier than Crosby was when he was drafted in 2005.

 

[bert]

Rossi is an inch or and inch and a half shorter, and heavier than Crosby was when he was drafted in 2005.

Crosby is just under 6 ft Rossi is 5'8.5 on his best day. Rossi will be 11 months older than Crosby in his draft year. Stylistically they are similar in play, but the raw tools arent close from an explosive strength stand point. They arent comparable in any way other than how they play stylistically.

 

[Six Assets]

Rossi is an inch or and inch and a half shorter, and heavier than Crosby was when he was drafted in 2005.

if i was a betting man, i would say crosby is 5'10 and rossi is 5'8

 

[Micklebot]

Rossi is an inch or and inch and a half shorter, and heavier than Crosby was when he was drafted in 2005.

Crosby was actually listed at 193 back when he was drafted (believe this was post combine, but maybe not). Too bad we don't get a combine for this year, would be nice to see if Rossi is actually 5'8 or 5'9. or what not and if he is still 187.