5 Players that Transcended the Sport

[Zopust]

I'd say you'd have to look at "cultural resonance". Mine is a North-American centred view because I don't really understand the impact that international players had on their own cultures. (I.e. Kurri, Kharlamov, Stastny etc.)

A player like Marcel Dionne put up a sick amount of points, but had no real impact on the culture of the game and the broader culture at large.

So:
1. Wayne Gretzky.
2. Maurice Richard.
3. Bobby Orr.
4. Pavel Bure.
5. Patrick Roy.

-Wayne Gretzky is the Great One. He is probably the most recognizable hockey player in the world, and often the only name known to those who aren't hockey fans.

-Maurice Richard was a cultural icon like no other when it comes to hockey, which is captured perfectly in "Le Chandail" or "the Hockey Sweater" by Roch Carrier. The Canadiens had many heroes, but he was the greatest. No other culture revered a hockey player with a reverence bordering on religion like he, and probably will not again. He was the voice for a culture which hadn't yet asserted itself in the Anglo-dominated Canada of his age.

-Bobby Orr, perhaps not the first truly valuable defencemen (Eddie Shore), but had a huge impact in becoming the icon of the fast and mobile defenceman most teams have today. Orr, unlike many of them however, was equally skilled defensively.

-Pavel Bure, I had a tough time with this one, but I do think that the influx of young Russians and Eastern Europeans (including Jagr, Mogilny) ushered in the truly international era of the NHL. I think it happened so quickly, and North-Americans became so accustomed to it, that we often forget how quickly the ratios of nationalities changed. Bure was perhaps the most galvanizing from the very beginning, emphasizing the speed and skill which Europeans became typically drafted for. Jagr had a string of Hart trophies but that was after Lemieux and Gretzky's time was done. I guess I see Stastny as the predecessor (like Salming) but with the end of the Cold War, soon after the time of Bure's defection, a huge talent pool could suddenly be accessed. Maybe Kovalev, the first Russian drafted in the 1st round by NYR, is a good fit here. Hrmm, let's move along

-Patrick Roy, basically was the guy who popularized the now standard pose for goaltenders, in the butterfly position, and is obviously the most successful. Go out and watch a street hockey game, and you will not see kids flailing around trying to make the save, but collapsing down in the very image of this man.

Again, it's difficult to evaluate this criteria. Some highly skilled players (i.e. Lemieux) were in the shadow of another for most of their careers, despite the fact that he may be in fact the second best player of all-time, or even first, in terms of the package of skills he brought.

 

[VanIslander]

"Transcend," according to my Merriam Webster's, means to rise above, surmount, exceed, surpass, etc. To have an impact beyond the boundaries of hockey. Popularity outside of (exceeding, surmounting, surpassing) the sport would be a good indicator of it. Muhammed Ali, Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, became cultural icons.

In America, those are more beloved than any hockey player. But both Wayne Gretzky and Gordie Howe are known by many non-hockey fans in the U.S. They have transcended the game of hockey.

But whether a player has transcended the game depends on the context of place:

In Michigan, Steve Yzerman has transcended the game and is a cultural icon of the broader community. I have met non-hockey fans there who speak fondly of him as a great man.

In Montreal, Toronto or even Canada in general, there are players who have transcended the sport.

It really depends on the context.

 

[Malefic74]

Arguements can be made for Salming in this category...probably the first player of "substance" to come to the nhl from Europe and shine. He had to put up with the "Broad Street Bully" era (and his own owner for cripes sakes) man was he tough.

Funny I thought of Salming as well, Kurri too; but in the end the admiration I have for a guy to have the courage to defect at that time made Peter more transcendant to me. Salming and Kurri were wonderful hockey players and both broke down barriers and stereotypes to achieve success, but in the summer they could always go back to Sweden and Finland an see their families. Defectors like the Stastnys never had that chance.

I don't believe Bure was a defector. Mogilny was the first Russian to defect in 1989, but by the time Bure left Russia in 91 the Wall was down and glasnost was underway.

 

[Ogopogo*]

That wouldn't be difficult. I know of several younger hockey fans and fans of other sports who have never heard of Bobby Orr.

"Transcend," according to my Merriam Webster's, means to rise above, surmount, exceed, surpass, etc. To have an impact beyond the boundaries of hockey. Popularity outside of (exceeding, surmounting, surpassing) the sport would be a good indicator of it. Muhammed Ali, Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, became cultural icons. Gretzky isn't even in that category, but he brought fans to the game like nobody else. If he doesn't play in Los Angeles, the NHL doesn't explode like it did. No other player brought fans to the game in that way, not even Orr.

If you want to create a group of players who excelled in the game beyond the level of everyone else, that's a whole different question.

I must disagree with your assessment of Gretzky. He definitely belongs in the company of Ali, Jordan and Ruth as far as cultural icons go. I would bet that most Americans that have never even seen a hockey game know who Gretzky is.

 

[Malefic74]

I think that is what makes Hasek so much better in my mind. Nobody copies his style because they can't. His style is raw athleticism and ability. He did not use the "crutch" of a "system" like the butterfly to dominate the league. He simply used his reflexes and abilities. That is what makes Hasek superior in my mind.

Hasek's style (or lack thereof) makes him a generational talent, one of those few truly unique individuals who comes along who is so unique and talented their likes will not be seen again. Hasek to me is like Bill Durnan. So unique and dominating and never to be seen again.

Orr is another who falls into this category, but Orr also transcends the game because he spawned a new style of defenceman. The offensive defenceman. Greats like Coffey, Bourque, Murphy and Leetch all take after the model of Bobby Orr. His style has trancended his era into the future of the way the game is played. Patrick Roy will indoubtedly share the same legacy. He will transcend his own era.

That's not a knock against Hasek at all. But to use the word transcend in it's strictest sense he falls short of that. He will definately be remembered, but not in the same way I don't think.

 

[crump]

You "don't too many people?" That's nice. I'm guessing the Joyce your profile refers to isn't James. Run along and let the adults talk, okay?

Wow, how clever of you to catch my technical errors, if it had anything to do with this topic I might be amused.

What do you mean when you say young fans? I know a lot of people from all ages who know who Bobby Orr is...what planet have you been living on for the last 20 years? Who are these people you have polled about the subject? Obviously they know nothing about hockey if they haven't heard of Bobby Orr so their opinion is irrelevant, as is yours.

Now go away and play with your young ignorant friends.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

IMO this list begins and ends with Wayne Gretzky. You can argue whether he was the best, but nobody has ever come close in transending the sport like Gretzky has. After that there are arguments to be made for about a dozen players as to who is the distant second.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I don't too many people care what your grade school buddies think about this topic.

When did this forum turn into a venue to throw childish insults at posters just because you don't like their opinions?? Jeez, Louise, this is the history forum. Say your piece but quit the name calling.

 

[arrbez]

When did this forum turn into a venue to throw childish insults at posters just because you don't like their opinions?? Jeez, Louise, this is the history forum. Say your piece but quit the name calling.

agreed.

And for the record, Crump, you got served

 

[chooch*]

I must disagree with your assessment of Gretzky. He definitely belongs in the company of Ali, Jordan and Ruth as far as cultural icons go. I would bet that most Americans that have never even seen a hockey game know who Gretzky is.

this is another I love 99 thread for you isnt it?

FYI - most americans dont give a damn about hockey and have never heard of 99.
To even mention 99 in the same breath as those you listed (and Tiger Woods or Senna or Magic or Pele or a hundred other north and south american athletes) shows that your best at flipping a used hockey register. Hockey gets lower ratings than Bowling even in nhl markets.

Orr and Howe are more popular in the hockey world, were more complete players and didnt ask for bodyguards. Messier is better known and respected even. In the 70's the NHL referred to Lafleur as "our Babe Ruth" (which was accurate as it said "our" but in no way is a hockey player comparable).

I dont know what yoru referring to when you say transcend - even you seem confused by it talking about Hasek.

Isnt Ken Dryden transcending hockey - depends what sense you use the word.

ps. tell Bring back bucky to stop sending me pm's.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

this is another I love 99 thread for you isnt it?





ps. tell Bring back bucky to stop sending me pm's.

Sorry, I assumed there was an adult in your house who could read the bigger words for you.

 

[Malefic74]

this is another I love 99 thread for you isnt it?

FYI - most americans dont give a damn about hockey and have never heard of 99.
To even mention 99 in the same breath as those you listed (and Tiger Woods or Senna or Magic or Pele or a hundred other north and south american athletes) shows that your best at flipping a used hockey register. Hockey gets lower ratings than Bowling even in nhl markets.

Sure that's the case NOW, but in the 80s in Wayne's prime Ogo is right. Even casual fans knew about Gretzky. Even hardcore NFL or MLB lovers who subscribed to Sports Illustrated got more than a couple of covers with him on it; he hosted Saturday Night Live (and poorly), and was even mentioned in a couple of episodes of Cheers when the Bruins were playing the Oilers for the Cup. For crying out loud he had a cartoon with Michael Jordan and Bo Jackson on Saturday morning. And Senna is a BIG stretch in that list. The US has had NASCAR and Indy racing in its prime during his time. Casual sports fans were more likely to mention A.J. Foyt or Mario Andretti before they got to an F1 driver. That's probably true of a lot of Canadian fans to (lest someone accuse me of picking on our American brethren).

Hey if you don't like Gretzky that's fine. But to suggest that no American sports fans in the 80s knew anything at all about Wayne is generalizing at best and outright ignorant at worst. I am by no means Wayne's biggest fan, but your opinions would get a lot more respect if you at least attempted SOME objectivity.

 

[boredmale]

Cam Neely....he has his own spot on IMDB

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0624202/

who can forget Sea Bass, that to me transends the sport

 

[Bruins4Ever]

1) Wayne Gretzky

- No reasons needed, best hockey player EVER.

2) Bobby Orr

- Revolutionized the offensive defenseman, and was unmatched for years, and still has yet to be matched with todays current crop of defenseman. Head and shoulders above most defenseman ever.

3) Gordie Howe

- Created the "powerforward" style of hockey so many players (Bertuzzi who I'd say is his current day equivolent (but not half as good as Howe)) and many others throughout the life of the NHL. So many players espire to be as gifted offensively, and be so feared on the ice. It's a tough combination, and has stood the test of time.

4) Maurice Richard

- Best pure goal scorer of all time. Has a trophy named after him for being the best goalscorer, and has left his mark on NHL forever. Had so much talent, he couldn't be stopped. Quick, powerful, and had the best hands in the NHL of all time.

5) Terry Sawchuk

- The best goalie of all time. Had reflexes, size, great puck instincts, and was easily the "elite goalie" of his time.

Honorable Mention:

Borje Salming - to get out of a communist country, and make a huge impact on the NHL is a huge accomplishment. Amazing player to say the least.

Mario Lemieux - One of the smartest, strongest, most dangerous players to ever play the game. Unstoppable almost every night, and played his heart out. A great leader, and basically took a Pittsburgh team and turned them into victors.

Cam Neely - One of the newer crop of power forwards. Erik Cole, Mark Bell, Keith Tkachuk, and Bill Guerin have all based their games of of Neely's style. Power, scoring ability, and smarts made Neely into one of the best players to ever lace of the skates.

Mike Bossy - My dad summed it up best. You would watch him with the puck, and ten seconds later you wondered how he put it in the net. Like a water-bug, he flew across the ice, and would put it in the goal seconds later. Just inredible as a player, and was impossible to defend against because you never knew where he was gonna go next.

Patrick Roy - Created the butterfly style of goalie. Became the most recognizable goalie probably of all time, and lead a Colorado, and Montreal team to Cups. The best backstop of the last 20 years.

Dominick Hasek - Another great goalie who revolutionized the way goalies play. He was very unorthodox, and you never knew how he'd get in front of the puck, but he always seemed to be able to. Fun to watch, and dominant every night.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the future, who knows? If a guy like Thornton, Hossa, Kovalchuk can break out and put up 100+ points consistently, they may have consideration for future lists. There's a kid named Sidney Crosby that may do the same, and with defensemen like Lidstrom or Pronger about to hang up the skates, with a few more seasons (especially Lidstrom) they may have enough credentials to rank up there with Salming or Harvey. As for goalies, I think Brodeur will be on there when all is said and done simply because of his consistency and his leading of numerous Team Canada's to medals near and far. If Luongo can get better and better, he could be, but he's less likely. There's no other goalie close to Brodeur in this department, and if he doesn't deteriotate over the next few years, he garners some attention.

 

[boredmale]

Borje Salming - to get out of a communist country, and make a huge impact on the NHL is a huge accomplishment. Amazing player to say the least.

isn't he from sweden?

Cam Neely - One of the newer crop of power forwards. Erik Cole, Mark Bell, Keith Tkachuk, and Bill Guerin have all based their games of of Neely's style. Power, scoring ability, and smarts made Neely into one of the best players to ever lace of the skates.

yeah that and he was sea bass

 

[Snap Wilson]

In America, those are more beloved than any hockey player. But both Wayne Gretzky and Gordie Howe are known by many non-hockey fans in the U.S. They have transcended the game of hockey.

First of all, VI, thanks for the reasoned response. I can only offer disagreement on Howe based on personal experience, which isn't constrained by regional affectation (I grew up in New York, but my work used to take me all over the U.S.). I remember the sixties, when both basketball and hockey were fringe sports, yet everyone knew who Wilt Chamberlain was, even if he was viewed mostly as a curiosity, while to the layperson, Gordie Howe was just a name.

But whether a player has transcended the game depends on the context of place:

Absolutely. Orr is a legend in Boston, even though many never even saw him play, and your point is taken on Yzerman in Detroit. But these are all regional affectations all the same. Canada is an exception to the global rule. Hockey heroes (especially if they played for the Habs) are afforded the status of royalty.

I must disagree with your assessment of Gretzky. He definitely belongs in the company of Ali, Jordan and Ruth as far as cultural icons go. I would bet that most Americans that have never even seen a hockey game know who Gretzky is.

He isn't. I'm not commenting on whether or not he deserves to be, but he isn't. I've seen kids playing basketball in Dubai pretending to be Jordan and they had never even seen him play. Ali and Ruth made front page news all over the world in their day. Ruth was such a fixture of the American psyche that Japanese soldiers used to level insults at him in World War 2 ("f**k you, Beibu Rusu!"), and Ali... well, maybe you had to be there. I'm not sure any athlete ever had such a culturally significant impact, not only in America, but the world at large.

It ain't Gretzky's fault that he never attained that status. Hockey has historically only been popular in cold weather places, and has never lent itself to that level of attention (the way baseball has, or boxing used to, or basketball did in the 80s and 90s). Gretzky dominated his sport in a way that few others have, but it's not the same thing.

 

[Bruins4Ever]

isn't he from sweden?

Sorry, I was thinking of someone else when I typed the post. He's still up there because after Orr, he carried the torch for offensive minded defensemen until Borque showed up a few years later. He was, and is still as Top 10 defenseman of all time IMO.

 

[arrbez]

I think most of the arguing in this thread is because nobody is really sure what "transcending" means. I'm not really sure if we're judging players based on their on-ice accomplishments (I think the original poster was leaning more towards players who clearly dominated all competition), or whether we're talking about thier cultural significance...

 

[loadie]

I think he transcended the game more as an icon than a player. Don't get me wrong, he was one of the best scorers ever, but like Ogo just alluded to, his on-ice skills were probably in the same league as guys like Hull, Esposito, etc. To transcend the game as a player I think you'd have to be completely in a league of your own in terms of dominance (Gretzky, Orr, etc), and I don't think Richard was that. The fact that he only won the Hart once leads me to this conclusion

To compare Richard with Esposito and to a certain extent Hull, isn't proper as far as I'm concerned. He may have had only one Hart throphy, but it was the playoffs that he exceled. During his playing era, there was no more dominant a force in the playoffs like the Rocket. He would virtually win a game by himself. The Rocket made hockey a religion in Quebec, as was witnessed at his funeral. Of all the players mentioned, he may of been the one that transcended the game the most. Putting Esposito in the same sentence with the Rocket is just wrong. You may want to read on his accomplishments than just looking at the number of trophys he won.

 

[arrbez]

To compare Richard with Esposito and to a certain extent Hull, isn't proper as far as I'm concerned. He may have had only one Hart throphy, but it was the playoffs that he exceled. During his playing era, there was no more dominant a force in the playoffs like the Rocket. He would virtually win a game by himself. The Rocket made hockey a religion in Quebec, as was witnessed at his funeral. Of all the players mentioned, he may of been the one that transcended the game the most. Putting Esposito in the same sentence with the Rocket is just wrong. You may want to read on his accomplishments than just looking at the number of trophys he won.

I'm not denying that Richard was a truly great player. His impact on the culture of the game extends far beyond the other two mentioned, but I don't think it's unreasonable to put around the same group as Hull and Espo as far as on-ice scoring goes. Heck, his playoff PPG is actually lower than the two guys mentioned.

I know many people are going to see this as an attack on Richard, but it's not. From what I can see, I just don't think his talent was on that "next level" with Gretzky, Orr, etc. But i'd still be happy to put him at the top of the "second tier" of all-time greats. If he truly was the absolute, head and shoulders above everyone else, dominant player in the league, I would imagine he'd have won the Hart trophy more than once in his 16-or-so year career. You can argue circumstances for the Art Ross and other stats-based trophies, but I think the Hart is a pretty solid indicator of where a player stands in the league

To sum it up: While the legend and impact of Rocket Richard is certainly up there with Gretzky and Orr, I don't think his on-ice dominance was

With that said, he certainly "transcended" the game as an icon

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Yeah next thing I know you'll be comparing Rocket to Wendel Clark. Rocket was the man of the 40-s and 50-s. He was the best goal scorer of the first 50 years of nhl hockey. He was the best player of the best team for years. He lead his team to a lot of stanley cups. He didn't care about tallying stupid points at the end of an already decided game like Gretzky used to. He didn't care about stats. He cared about the team. He was a leader. He was an Icon. He wasn't called the Rocket for nothing. Yeah Esposito has a better goals per game average. Who gives a dam considering the era both men played in? Oh and Rocket didn't have a Bobby Orr making tape to tape passes to his stick. Rocket is in my and so many people's hearts one of the top 5 best players ever period. But hey you're a leaf fan so I wouldn't expect that.

 

[arrbez]

hmm...yeah, damn biased Leaf fans, lol

 

[Malefic74]

Yeah next thing I know you'll be comparing Rocket to Wendel Clark. Rocket was the man of the 40-s and 50-s. He was the best goal scorer of the first 50 years of nhl hockey. He was the best player of the best team for years. He lead his team to a lot of stanley cups. He didn't care about tallying stupid points at the end of an already decided game like Gretzky used to. He didn't care about stats. He cared about the team. He was a leader. He was an Icon. He wasn't called the Rocket for nothing. Yeah Esposito has a better goals per game average. Who gives a dam considering the era both men played in? Oh and Rocket didn't have a Bobby Orr making tape to tape passes to his stick. Rocket is in my and so many people's hearts one of the top 5 best players ever period. But hey you're a leaf fan so I wouldn't expect that.

But Rocket DID have Harvey and a much better overall team with him. Let's not pretend he was the ONLY star the Habs had. It does nothing to make Rocket any better than he was, but it does a disservice to the greats he played with.

The Rocket's accolades speak for themselves and you will never convince anyone who doesn't already see them.

 

[arrbez]

The Rocket's accolades speak for themselves and you will never convince anyone who doesn't already see them.

Thanks for being civil about it

I think I have a pretty good handle on the Rocket, but I just don't see him up there with Orr and Gretzky as a player. Just me opinion

 

[KOVALEV10*]

But Rocket DID have Harvey and a much better overall team with him. Let's not pretend he was the ONLY star the Habs had. It does nothing to make Rocket any better than he was, but it does a disservice to the greats he played with.

The Rocket's accolades speak for themselves and you will never convince anyone who doesn't already see them.

Yeah Harvey was 80-100 assists per season type of defenseman like Orr eh? Harvey was a defensive defenseman which is the complete opposite of Orr.