4-5 years from now, Calle Jarnkrok will be a...

[TatarTangle]

Franzen - Zetterberg - Nyquist
Legwand - Datsyuk - Weiss
Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar
Miller - Helm - Glendening

Who's spot is Jarnkrok going to take? Spare me he's better than Legwand. He's not. He might be in a couple years but stop with that **** until then.

But let me get this straight; outside of Weiss and Legwand each and everyone of those players have earned their spot on the team. And Jurco is most likely going to start in Grand Rapids next year. So they're just supposed to hand Jarnkrok a spot because the kid isn't happy playing in Grand Rapids? You think Nyquist and Tatar were happy playing there for as long as they did? You think Jurco is going to be happy having to start in Grand Rapids next year?

I think part of the reason why the Red Wings let their prospects "overripe" is to see how they react to the situation of being at a level they think they're too good for. Do they act like a little kid about it? Or do they suck it up, keep working hard and do what they have to? AKA being a man.

Whether I agree with the development of prospects or not, forgive me for siding with the Red Wings on this one. If Jarnkrok didn't want to put in his time in Grand Rapids like every other prospect has to then **** him. He's not better than everyone else.

 

[Frk It]

Nyquist had an opportunity last year...he played almost half the season in the NHL and put up 3 goals and 6 pts.

He got an opportunity last year on the 3rd line with little to no PP time.

He got an opportunity this year to get 1st line minutes with tons of PP time.

Had he got the same opportunity last year, and same time to work through a slumps and bumps, he could've put up numbers too.

What forced him to take the organizations advice to start shooting more was the team crumbling around him and someone needing to step up and carry the team. He wasn't even shooting a lot in Grand Rapids. And when everyone's healthy he'll go back to being a playmaker.

 

[Frk It]

We won't see eye to eye, so we can go back to discussing Jarnkrok and the trade.

Plus it's mostly water under the bridge at this point.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

He got an opportunity last year on the 3rd line with little to no PP time.

He got an opportunity this year to get 1st line minutes with tons of PP time.

Had he got the same opportunity last year, and same time to work through a slumps and bumps, he could've put up numbers too.

What forced him to take the organizations advice to start shooting more was the team crumbling around him and someone needing to step up and carry the team. He wasn't even shooting a lot in Grand Rapids. And when everyone's healthy he'll go back to being a playmaker.

Plus half of the season last year was like 20 games. 6 points in 20 with all the variables you account for is still pretty good.

 

[FlashyG]

He got an opportunity last year on the 3rd line with little to no PP time.

He got an opportunity this year to get 1st line minutes with tons of PP time.

Had he got the same opportunity last year, and same time to work through a slumps and bumps, he could've put up numbers too.

What forced him to take the organizations advice to start shooting more was the team crumbling around him and someone needing to step up and carry the team. He wasn't even shooting a lot in Grand Rapids. And when everyone's healthy he'll go back to being a playmaker.

He's spent a large portion of this season playing on the 3rd line as well, in fact he started there and earned his way into a top line role by doing what he didn't/or possibly couldn't last year... scoring like a madman.

He also got plenty of PP time last season as well (Over 2 min a game), and scored 1/3 of his points with the man advantage. This season he's getting slightly more time on the PP but is actually scoring a lower % of his points on the PP.

 

[FlashyG]

Plus half of the season last year was like 20 games. 6 points in 20 with all the variables you account for is still pretty good.

6 pts in 22 games played equates to .27 pts per game

This season he's putting up .9 pts per game....he's more than 3 times better this season after spending more time in Grand Rapids.

 

[Frk It]

He's spent a large portion of this season playing on the 3rd line as well, in fact he started there and earned his way into a top line role by doing what he didn't/or possibly couldn't last year... scoring like a madman.

He also got plenty of PP time last season as well (Over 2 min a game), and scored 1/3 of his points with the man advantage. This season he's getting slightly more time on the PP but is actually scoring a lower % of his points on the PP.

He literally started this season his first game on the first line with Zetterberg and Franzen, and has stayed on the 1st line even though his pretty lengthy scoring slump.

So that is false.

 

[Frk It]

6 pts in 22 games played equates to .27 pts per game

This season he's putting up .9 pts per game....he's more than 3 times better this season after spending more time in Grand Rapids.

The fact that we try to credit that to playing in Grand Rapids is comical. He had nothig left to gain from playing in that league. I watched him in the season opener in Rochester. He looked bored.

 

[drw02]

Nyquist had an opportunity last year...he played almost half the season in the NHL and put up 3 goals and 6 pts.

If anything starting this season back in the AHL pushed him to work harder and to also take the organization's advice to start shooting far more. That increase in shooting is what Nyquist credits with his far superior numbers.



I'd happily play Jarnkrok over Andersson, but Miller is one of the more valuable players on our team.

Jarnkrok would not work at all on a checking line. He doesn't hit, he doesn't block shots, he's terrible on faceoffs and he turns the puck over as often as he takes it away. I think in time he'll become a very good 2nd or 3rd line center, but if you play him against the oppositions top lines he's going underwhelm.

Since when do Miller and Andersson hit? Neither blocks very many shots either (59 and 25 respectively). He's not terrible at faceoffs, he's struggling a little going against stronger NHL players but he'll get better. They also don't have to play him at center.

Our supposed shutdown line had recently consisted of Miller-Glenny-Bert...you think that lines play would have fallen off further if we had replaced Bert with Jarnkrok for several games? I tend to think the line would have improved both offensively and defensively. Same if they had sat Andersson and put Jarnkrok with Helm and Alfie.

I'm not saying Jarnkrok should have stayed up when/if the team got fully healthy but they could have and should have thrown him a bone. Maybe they would have found out he's a lot better than some of the guys they thought were ahead of him.

 

[Retire91]

6 pts in 22 games played equates to .27 pts per game

This season he's putting up .9 pts per game....he's more than 3 times better this season after spending more time in Grand Rapids.

I like teams that do a mix of development, you can still develop in the NHL especially when a player has nothing left to prove in the AHL. Even at .27 ppg he still would have outscored Cleary in a fraction of the ice time. Sorry getting way of topic lol My point being you don't have to over bake these guys. Other teams don't and have had success. When the wings had a hall of fame roster it was understandable, that is no longer an excuse and it hasn't been for many seasons. They had room to get a look at Jarnkrok and Legwand is not a difference maker.

 

[TatarTangle]

They had room to get a look at Jarnkrok and Legwand is not a difference maker.

I beg to differ. If it's Jarnkrok playing instead of Legwand right now the Red Wings are hoping for the #1 pick.

Jarnkrok wasn't / isn't that good to help the Red Wings into the playoffs. Legwand is.

 

[Matte99]

Since when do Miller and Andersson hit? Neither blocks very many shots either (59 and 25 respectively). He's not terrible at faceoffs, he's struggling a little going against stronger NHL players but he'll get better. They also don't have to play him at center.

Our supposed shutdown line had recently consisted of Miller-Glenny-Bert...you think that lines play would have fallen off further if we had replaced Bert with Jarnkrok for several games? I tend to think the line would have improved both offensively and defensively. Same if they had sat Andersson and put Jarnkrok with Helm and Alfie.

I'm not saying Jarnkrok should have stayed up when/if the team got fully healthy but they could have and should have thrown him a bone. Maybe they would have found out he's a lot better than some of the guys they thought were ahead of him.

I think Järnkrok would have been good based on what ive seen in his games with Preds. His positioning is very good, both offensively and defensively. Overall he is playing a solid game, good passing, getting good looks and doesnt give up much. He isnt as strong as some players or as fast but he seems very smart and seems to know how to compensate. His play will also improve from the challenge of better opponents. His faceoffs were att .44 vs Dallas, its not great but its acceptable and a work in progress.

 

[FlashyG]

He literally started this season his first game on the first line with Zetterberg and Franzen, and has stayed on the 1st line even though his pretty lengthy scoring slump.

So that is false.

You're right, he did start on one of the top lines, but he still played a long stretch on the 3rd line with Sheahan and Tatar.

He's played with so many different players this year and produced so much more that its ridiculous to suggest that his improvement was because he was getting 1 minute or so less of ice-time a game.

Its night and day how much better he is this season.

 

[Retire91]

I beg to differ. If it's Jarnkrok playing instead of Legwand right now the Red Wings are hoping for the #1 pick.

Jarnkrok wasn't / isn't that good to help the Red Wings into the playoffs. Legwand is.

That's one of my earlier posts, you play the best players from the beginning of the season and the wings are not risking missing the playoffs. Bad roster decisions lead to more bad roster decisions. Don't sign Cleary and play Nyquist right out of camp and they are not scratching at the bottom of the wild card. Then there is not even a need for a desperation trade. Hypotetical I will admit.

I am not too stubborn to listen to counter points if Legwand ends up filling Wiess's role if Wiess just completely blows it next season too, yeah yeah

 

[FlashyG]

Since when do Miller and Andersson hit? Neither blocks very many shots either (59 and 25 respectively). He's not terrible at faceoffs, he's struggling a little going against stronger NHL players but he'll get better. They also don't have to play him at center.

Our supposed shutdown line had recently consisted of Miller-Glenny-Bert...you think that lines play would have fallen off further if we had replaced Bert with Jarnkrok for several games? I tend to think the line would have improved both offensively and defensively. Same if they had sat Andersson and put Jarnkrok with Helm and Alfie.

I'm not saying Jarnkrok should have stayed up when/if the team got fully healthy but they could have and should have thrown him a bone. Maybe they would have found out he's a lot better than some of the guys they thought were ahead of him.

I've already said that I don't consider Andersson as a valuable piece to the Wings, and that I'd play Jarnkrok over him, but there is no defence for his faceoff #'s. He's been taking as many faceoffs as any other center on the Preds and he's won only 36% of them, far and away the worst on their team, and likely among the worst in the NHL.

Miller however ranks 2nd on the team in hits, with 113 this season. Jarnkrok is on pace for 12. He also leads all our forwards in blocked shots with his 59, Jarnkrok is also only on pace for 12.

I agree that he would have improved the 3rd line with Helm and Alfie, but I think he'd even worse than Bert on the 4th line.

 

[TatarTangle]

That's one of my earlier posts, you play the best players from the beginning of the season and the wings are not risking missing the playoffs. Bad roster decisions lead to more bad roster decisions. Don't sign Cleary and play Nyquist right out of camp and they are not scratching at the bottom of the wild card. Then there is not even a need for a desperation trade. Hypotetical I will admit.

I am not too stubborn to listen to counter points if Legwand ends up filling Wiess's role if Wiess just completely blows it next season too, yeah yeah

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. But this whole thread is hypothetical. Jarnkrok being better than Legwand or being a top 6 forward right now is far from the truth.

It was a questionable trade for the future, good trade for the right now. I'm indifferent on it but am glad Holland made an aggressive move to try and make the playoffs. I'll take an exciting playoff push over pitiful hockey any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And he didn't mortgage the future by doing so. Jarnkrok isn't some Godsend of a forward.

 

[Johnz96*]

I've already said that I don't consider Andersson as a valuable piece to the Wings, and that I'd play Jarnkrok over him, but there is no defence for his faceoff #'s. He's been taking as many faceoffs as any other center on the Preds and he's won only 36% of them, far and away the worst on their team, and likely among the worst in the NHL.

Miller however ranks 2nd on the team in hits, with 113 this season. Jarnkrok is on pace for 12. He also leads all our forwards in blocked shots with his 59, Jarnkrok is also only on pace for 12.

I agree that he would have improved the 3rd line with Helm and Alfie, but I think he'd even worse than Bert on the 4th line.

Glendening was under 40% in his first few games as well and has climbed up to close to 50% now (so he has been winning them at over 50% since).
Jarnkrok was often dominant on the dot in GR and was one of the leaders at last year's WC at 58.2%. I'm sure it will pick up when he gets comfortable.
I think he could play a role on the 4th line as he would provide more puck control on the line than someone like Andersson.
But for now I will try to refrain from the Jarnkrok conversations until the end of the season where there will be a bigger sample size of performance to consider. (I might post a vid however lol)

 

[Henkka]

Legwand fits to our future, because we have small-sized winger prospects coming and we have to center them with big-sized centermen. So one small-sized center was ideal to let go and build some future around Sheahan and Legwand combo. Andersson is a spare part, 12th-13th forward.

Like this:

Zetterberg 5'11 - Datsyuk 5'11 - Franzen 6'3
Nyquist 5'11 - Legwand 6'2 - Jurco 6'2
Tatar 5'10 - Sheahan 6'2 - Alfredsson 5'11 (Pulkkinen 5'10 replaces him in a year)
Then we have 6'4 Mantha coming and will be added to TOP9 at some point.

Or why not this.

Franzen 6'3 - Zetterberg 5'11 - Jurco 6'2
Nyquist 5'11 - Datsyuk 5'11 - Mantha 6'4
Tatar 5'10 - Legwand 6'2 - Pulkkinen 5'10 (in 2015-16)
Helm 5'11 - Sheahan 6'2 - Abdelkader 6'1
(Andersson 6'2, Callahan 6'0 etc...)


Every Center plays at least 16 minutes.

 

[drw02]

I've already said that I don't consider Andersson as a valuable piece to the Wings, and that I'd play Jarnkrok over him, but there is no defence for his faceoff #'s. He's been taking as many faceoffs as any other center on the Preds and he's won only 36% of them, far and away the worst on their team, and likely among the worst in the NHL.

Miller however ranks 2nd on the team in hits, with 113 this season. Jarnkrok is on pace for 12. He also leads all our forwards in blocked shots with his 59, Jarnkrok is also only on pace for 12.

I agree that he would have improved the 3rd line with Helm and Alfie, but I think he'd even worse than Bert on the 4th line.

Yes 36% is not good enough but it's a tiny sample size. He was excellent at faceoffs in GR, there is little reason to think his faceoff numbers won't improve as he gains more experience. He's a smart player, he'll adjust.

Meh 100 of those so called hits from Miller were soft little rub outs on the boards that really had little impact. He does not hit with authority, he does not wear down opposing defenseman, nor does he intimidate them in any regard.

Jarnkrok doesn't have a lot of blocked shots because he's playing in the other teams zone more often than not. He also doesn't get nearly as many PK minutes as Miller. And centers aren't typically in position 5on5 in the D-zone to be big time shot blockers compared to their wing counterparts. Miller is expected to be a #1 PK'er and block shots yet he averages less than 1 shot block per game.

 

[Johnz96*]

Legwand fits to our future, because we have small-sized winger prospects coming and we have to center them with big-sized centermen. So one small-sized center was ideal to let go and build some future around Sheahan and Legwand combo. Andersson is a spare part, 12th-13th forward.

Like this:

Zetterberg 5'11 - Datsyuk 5'11 - Franzen 6'3
Nyquist 5'11 - Legwand 6'2 - Jurco 6'2
Tatar 5'10 - Sheahan 6'2 - Alfredsson 5'11 (Pulkkinen 5'10 replaces him in a year)
Then we have 6'4 Mantha coming and will be added to TOP9 at some point.

Or why not this.

Franzen 6'3 - Zetterberg 5'11 - Jurco 6'2
Nyquist 5'11 - Datsyuk 5'11 - Mantha 6'4
Tatar 5'10 - Legwand 6'2 - Pulkkinen 5'10 (in 2015-16)
Helm 5'11 - Sheahan 6'2 - Abdelkader 6'1
(Andersson 6'2, Callahan 6'0 etc...)


Every Center plays at least 16 minutes.

Unless some of them play some on the wing that would be impossible.
16x4=64

 

[InjuredChoker]

Unless some of them play some on the wing that would be impossible.
16x4=64

pp, sh time.

 

[Henkka]

Unless some of them play some on the wing that would be impossible.
16x4=64

With special teams you can put them play like 20 minutes if we want. But because all of Datsyuk, Zeta and Legwand are older and more older in 1-2 years (when those Pulks and Manthas are jumping in), those reduced roles will fit them pretty perfectly.

That later estimation was for like 2015-16 season.

Ages in 2015-16:
Datsyuk, 37
Zeta, 35
Legwand, 35
Sheahan, 24

 

[TatarTangle]

Yes 36% is not good enough but it's a tiny sample size. He was excellent at faceoffs in GR, there is little reason to think his faceoff numbers won't improve as he gains more experience. He's a smart player, he'll adjust.

Meh 100 of those so called hits from Miller were soft little rub outs on the boards that really had little impact. He does not hit with authority, he does not wear down opposing defenseman, nor does he intimidate them in any regard.

Jarnkrok doesn't have a lot of blocked shots because he's playing in the other teams zone more often than not. He also doesn't get nearly as many PK minutes as Miller. And centers aren't typically in position 5on5 in the D-zone to be big time shot blockers compared to their wing counterparts. Miller is expected to be a #1 PK'er and block shots yet he averages less than 1 shot block per game.

...Jarnkrok is not nearly as strong or as physical as Miller. A hit is a hit. To imply that Calle Jarnkrok would only have one less hit than Miller -thus equally as physical- at the end of the season is crazy.

Miller has been playing fantastic, relatively mistake free hockey for the past couple months. Even though it doesn't show in the box score he's has been one of the better forwards. He's infinitely times better suited for a bottom 6 role. Jarnkrok obviously has a ton more upside but in no way, shape or form is he better than Miller as a bottom 6 forward for this team right now. Miller was on the ice for the last minute yesterday. He's physical, defensively responsible, smart, proven.

I get that people are upset Holland traded Jarnkrok, and I'm sure he'll turn out to be a fine hockey player, but this is getting out of hand. There are roles that teams need. That this team needs. Jarnkrok wanted a role he wasn't ready or suited for at this time. Simple as that.

 

[drw02]

...Jarnkrok is not nearly as strong or as physical as Miller. A hit is a hit. To imply that Calle Jarnkrok would only have one less hit than Miller -thus equally as physical- at the end of the season is crazy.

Miller has been playing fantastic, relatively mistake free hockey for the past couple months. Even though it doesn't show in the box score he's has been one of the better forwards. He's infinitely times better suited for a bottom 6 role. Jarnkrok obviously has a ton more upside but in no way, shape or form is he better than Miller as a bottom 6 forward for this team right now. Miller was on the ice for the last minute yesterday. He's physical, defensively responsible, smart, proven.

I get that people are upset Holland traded Jarnkrok, and I'm sure he'll turn out to be a fine hockey player, but this is getting out of hand. There are roles that teams need. That this team needs. Jarnkrok wanted a role he wasn't ready or suited for at this time. Simple as that.

You and I have a very different opinion of what the term "physical" means when applied to hockey.

I'm not trying to **** on Miller...he's solid in his role but I just disagree he's some irreplaceable, shutdown player. And I'm not saying it had to be Miller who sat for Jarnkrok, could have been any one of Andersson, Emmerton, or Bert.

 

[FlashyG]

You and I have a very different opinion of what the term "physical" means when applied to hockey.

I'm not trying to **** on Miller...he's solid in his role but I just disagree he's some irreplaceable, shutdown player. And I'm not saying it had to be Miller who sat for Jarnkrok, could have been any one of Andersson, Emmerton, or Bert.

Nobody is saying he's irreplaceable...we're saying he couldn't be replaced effectively by Jarnkrok.

Emmerton wasn't even in the NHL when Jarnkrok got traded, in fact had Jarnkrok not been planning on going back to Sweden he probably would have been called up instead of Emmerton when Cory got the call.