Prospect Info: 2023 Offseason Prospect Rankings #4

[Flgatorguy87]

First fire I saw from Tomasino was in the playoffs starting in the 2nd round. Hope that was the start to figuring out the compete level he needs to be a player.

 

[ShagDaddy]

Where we have no idea... zero idea... how much of last season was "Tomasino" vs "Hynes". Sure, if next season is a bit iffy, it's "Tomasino". But I just won't sign up to any predictions on that front at all, because I KNOW FOR A FACT that Hynes was abysmal. Correspondingly, I don't have a clue if Tomasino has issues or not. For me, it's a clean slate for Tomasino in 2023-24. Make of it what he will.

If you would have watched Tomasino play in Milwaukee, you’d know exactly why he got sent back to the AHL. And those that did watch every game he played in Milwaukee actually have a really good idea how much of last season was Tomasino vs Hynes.

 

[maplepred]

Tomasino has done well on every level he’s played. Killed the AHL at 19 years of age. If it wasn’t for stupid Hynes he would have really shown up last year but he was probabtk discouraged for being demoted for doing nothing but succeeding. Brutal. And he still did well.
I can’t wait to see him next season under brunette playing top six mins. He’s gonna be a stud!

If you would have watched Tomasino play in Milwaukee, you’d know exactly why he got sent back to the AHL. And those that did watch every game he played in Milwaukee actually have a really good idea how much of last season was Tomasino vs Hynes.

When he averaged over a point per game?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

If you would have watched Tomasino play in Milwaukee, you’d know exactly why he got sent back to the AHL. And those that did watch every game he played in Milwaukee actually have a really good idea how much of last season was Tomasino vs Hynes.

Shouldn’t have unignored, my bad!

 

[AintLifeGrand]

I’m gonna be blown away if Parsinen gets ranked above Tomasino. I just don’t get it. Tomasino has more potential, I love Parssinen but wow, I feel like he may be a bit overhyped here.

Parsinnen plays like a 29 year old top 6 center , so much poise and hockey iq

Tomasino plays the game like a skittish dog

 

[maplepred]

Parsinnen plays like a 29 year old top 6 center , so much poise and hockey iq

Tomasino plays the game like a skittish dog

Last season,

Tomasino: 18 points in 31 games .58ppg
Parsinen: 25 points in 45 games .55ppg

What am I missing? Tomasino is less of a top six forward?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Last season,

Tomasino: 18 points in 31 games .58ppg
Parsinen: 25 points in 45 games .55ppg

What am I missing? Tomasino is less of a top six forward?

Well the idea is Parssinen brings a lot more than his raw pts though. He maintains possession, he digs, he makes his wingers better, whether he gets a point or not. He’s a big guy who can be a handful for the opposing D.

Tomasino didn’t seem the least bit “skittish” in Year 1 in the NHL. I’m willing to write last season off to an incompetent coach.

 

[Olderfan]

Well the idea is Parssinen brings a lot more than his raw pts though. He maintains possession, he digs, he makes his wingers better, whether he gets a point or not. He’s a big guy who can be a handful for the opposing D.

Tomasino didn’t seem the least bit “skittish” in Year 1 in the NHL. I’m willing to write last season off to an incompetent coach.

Actually, they’re both Preds. And both have skills. And that’s a real good thing. Training camp is gonna be a couple of things. Great fun and a time to put “it’s Hynes fault” to rest. A lot was his fault but not everything.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Here's the thing that everyone making excuses for Tomasino forgets. He did not look good when push into a top 6 role two years ago. He did okay and scored at a respectable pace with sheltered minutes but couldn't translate that to top 6 success. He then came into camp after a summer of evidently thinking he was a lock for the NHL and underperformed, significantly. Not sure how that is so easily brushed off as a Hynes issue but I guess he's the easy to blame boogie man.

This training camp he'll need to prove he's a legit top 6 winger. There might be an open spot for him but he has to be assertive and take it.

 

[Kat Predator]

Tomasino got injured very quickly after being sent down to Milwaukee. So, yeah, he wasn't doing a lot in the games because he wasn't playing.

The issue wasn't Tomasino, but the back and forth on player development. The organization spoke of going with and developing some younger players. And they did that at points. Then they would reverse course and bring in a bunch of free agents and sit the younger players or send them to Milwaukee. They lost Tolvanen because of this "strategy". They bounced Tomasino back and forth. They moved Fabbro up and down the lineup. They yoyoed Cody Glass in and out of the lineup. As a whole, there really isn't much of a defense for the general situation. You're either organizationally going to invest high draft capital, develop, and commit to your players and give them legit opportunities, or you aren't.

 

[PredsV82]

There's no reason Tomasinos problems can't be a combination of both how he prepared himself for last season and how he was utilized. But when push comes to shove, if he shows up to camp this year ready to play, he should be fine. If he shits the bed again, he's gonna get passed by some hungrier, more disciplined players.

 

[Predsanddead24]

I didn’t see camp so I can’t attest to how terrible he looked there. Even taking it at face value they did a horrible job of handling him afterwards. If he was really that bad why did we take him to Europe to play no games instead of sending him down to Ads camp? Then we kept him down way longer than he needed to be. Even Poile said he was worthy of a call up well before we actually did call him up. Like sure Tomasino could have done better on his end but I don’t find the argument it was all on him very compelling.

Besides that when he did get his chance his production was solid enough. Sure his eye test was underwhelming compared to Evangelista and Juuso (although I think some forget Juuso had some stretches where he looked not great last year too). Still though his point totals were on par with Evangelista and Juuso who most seem to be happy with. I get there’s more to the game than point totals but his defensive metrics show he isn’t awful there either at least from a results perspective (2nd lowest GA/60 out of any player with >10GP behind Glass).

I want to see more out of Tomasino too. My disagreement is the idea that this is a put up or shut up year or that he could quickly be reaching change of scenery trade territory.

 

[herzausstein]

Parssinen and tomasino are different types of players. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and play different positions and styles. Honestly, if granlund hadnt been dog buns last season and glass timid to start with would we of even seen Parssinen last season? Hynes seemed to only elevate young players when he absolutely necessary.

Novak, Parsinnen, tomasino, Evangelista, Stastney, and Livingstone were all treated as backup plans instead of primary options.

Hynes completely changed strategy on the 4th line between seasons. From a tolvanen glass tomasino young and sheltered to whatever the eff you want to call smith jankowski rotating cast line.

 

[Kat Predator]

There's no reason Tomasinos problems can't be a combination of both how he prepared himself for last season and how he was utilized. But when push comes to shove, if he shows up to camp this year ready to play, he should be fine. If he shits the bed again, he's gonna get passed by some hungrier, more disciplined players.

I don't think it's really arguable. Did Tomasino come in and blow the door off its hinges? Force his way into a top-6 spot. No. Was the head coach ultimately very reluctant to give young players playing time and the latitude to make and learn from mistakes? Yep. We know the latter because it was by far the prevalent modus operandi with the young players, right down to Poile acknowledging straight up that putting younger players in the lineup had been a mistake and that he course corrected with free agents to give his coach a chance to win.

The argument that there is room for both things to be true is further proven by what Trotz did after being hired. He fired Hynes and Lambert. He got rid of the core leadership that he could, taking a hefty cap hit. I fully suspect he had massive input into the TDL tear down, approving moving some of the untouchable players who played heavy minutes under Hynes, and giving younger players like Tomasino the opportunities down the stretch.

 

[Armourboy]

I don't think it's really arguable. Did Tomasino come in and blow the door off its hinges? Force his way into a top-6 spot. No. Was the head coach ultimately very reluctant to give young players playing time and the latitude to make and learn from mistakes? Yep. We know the latter because it was by far the prevalent modus operandi with the young players, right down to Poile acknowledging straight up that putting younger players in the lineup had been a mistake and that he course corrected with free agents to give his coach a chance to win.

The argument that there is room for both things to be true is further proven by what Trotz did after being hired. He fired Hynes and Lambert. He got rid of the core leadership that he could, taking a hefty cap hit. I fully suspect he had massive input into the TDL tear down, approving moving some of the untouchable players who played heavy minutes under Hynes, and giving younger players like Tomasino the opportunities down the stretch.

Tend to agree that I think it's a combination of both Hynes and Tomasino. I've stated several times that I'm not sold that even if Tomasino would have had a solid camp that he still wouldn't have been in Milwaukee. I think Hynes got this stubborn idea in his head that every single player needed to be able to hit and be physical or he didn't really want to play them. I think ultimately decisions like that is why he isn't here.

That said, Tomasino coming in and having the camp he did just made it easier for Hynes to be able to send him back down, and then Tomasino more or less going down and being rather lackluster to start the season didn't help his case.

I still stick with the thought that this season is very important for him from an organizational stand point. He might not get traded away yet but he is going to have some guys that are more than capable of pushing him out of the lineup behind him and that leash is going to get short pretty quick.

We have no way of knowing yet just how much patience Trotz is going to have with some of these players. Yeah he mentioned wanting to overcook them a bit in the AHL but that says to me when you do get your shot you better take it because he may only bring you to the table for dinner so many times.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Tomasino WILL get pushed. Both Kemell and Wood project as top-6 RWers. So if he doesn't establish himself firmly this coming season, those guys are coming for him the next season.

Maybe (? who knows ?) he rested on his laurels a little bit last season. And suffered the consequences. But if he has any active brain cells at all, he will have learned from that, and he can look at our prospect rankings and see 2 RWers ranked above him, and know he has to go gonzo preparing for the coming season. If he can't do it with all the red alerts flashing as they are... well then, ok, that's on him.

 

[Armourboy]

Tomasino WILL get pushed. Both Kemell and Wood project as top-6 RWers. So if he doesn't establish himself firmly this coming season, those guys are coming for him the next season.

Maybe (? who knows ?) he rested on his laurels a little bit last season. And suffered the consequences. But if he has any active brain cells at all, he will have learned from that, and he can look at our prospect rankings and see 2 RWers ranked above him, and know he has to go gonzo preparing for the coming season. If he can't do it with all the red alerts flashing as they are... well then, ok, that's on him.

Based on everything we saw and heard coming out of camp I think it's a pretty good indication that he certainly didn't push himself last offseason by any stretch of the imagination.

Now some of that may just be a learning curve and getting the understanding of now that you are a professional how you do that or maybe he kind of picked up that vibe from some of the Vets on the team that are no longer here. Whatever it was he better not do that again this offseason cause he definitely needs to hit the ground running.

Tolvanen got screwed by Poile/Hynes in my mind, although this coming season with Seattle will either reinforce that or maybe prove it wrong. However, Tomasino has the benefit of getting that change this season without being moved, he has a coach coming in that is known to be more offensive minded, and he needs to take serious advantage of it.

As you said the push may not be as much from the organization but more from the players coming up in the system.

 

[Edgework]

Hynes completely changed strategy on the 4th line between seasons. From a tolvanen glass tomasino young and sheltered to whatever the eff you want to call smith jankowski rotating cast line.

Good post, but I have a quibble about this bit. The Tomasino-glass-Tolvanen line got exactly 22 minutes in 2021-22.

(And looked great in them)

By contrast, Tomasino got 246 minutes with Michael McCarron, his most frequent center.

I’m not sure what to call those minutes, but Michael McCarron is not a scoring threat in the NHL in any context.

 

[herzausstein]

Good post, but I have a quibble about this bit. The Tomasino-glass-Tolvanen line got exactly 22 minutes in 2021-22.

(And looked great in them)

By contrast, Tomasino got 246 minutes with Michael McCarron, his most frequent center.

I’m not sure what to call those minutes, but Michael McCarron is not a scoring threat in the NHL in any context.

Good observation.


Still dont understand why that would be acceptable one season and not the next though. Jankowski was our biggest scoring threat on the 4th line this season (7G in 50 games which is basically identical to McCarrons 7G in 51 games last season.)

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Based on everything we saw and heard coming out of camp I think it's a pretty good indication that he certainly didn't push himself last offseason by any stretch of the imagination.

Now some of that may just be a learning curve and getting the understanding of now that you are a professional how you do that or maybe he kind of picked up that vibe from some of the Vets on the team that are no longer here. Whatever it was he better not do that again this offseason cause he definitely needs to hit the ground running.

Tolvanen got screwed by Poile/Hynes in my mind, although this coming season with Seattle will either reinforce that or maybe prove it wrong. However, Tomasino has the benefit of getting that change this season without being moved, he has a coach coming in that is known to be more offensive minded, and he needs to take serious advantage of it.

As you said the push may not be as much from the organization but more from the players coming up in the system.

Tolvanen was such a bad loss, since IMO he DID push himself and did do pretty much everything that was asked of him, and was nevertheless dropped despite that. Fabbro almost hit this level. Tomasino was "slightly saved" by virtue of having waiver exemption and minor league eligibility. But to me, all 3 cases trace back identically to a coach who "just didn't get it". Hynes was so bad that I am not ready to project anything based on his mismanagement of our young players. I don't think that guy will EVER get another NHL job. He shouldn't. NHL GMs are a little dumb too, of course, but Hynes really needs to re-imagine his approach at least... he got himself in the door and has a lot of energy and enthusiasm for his job, but he still has failed both attempts so far, he really needs to re-evaluate how he screwed those opportunities up.

 

[Armourboy]

Tolvanen was such a bad loss, since IMO he DID push himself and did do pretty much everything that was asked of him, and was nevertheless dropped despite that. Fabbro almost hit this level. Tomasino was "slightly saved" by virtue of having waiver exemption and minor league eligibility. But to me, all 3 cases trace back identically to a coach who "just didn't get it". Hynes was so bad that I am not ready to project anything based on his mismanagement of our young players. I don't think that guy will EVER get another NHL job. He shouldn't. NHL GMs are a little dumb too, of course, but Hynes really needs to re-imagine his approach at least... he got himself in the door and has a lot of energy and enthusiasm for his job, but he still has failed both attempts so far, he really needs to re-evaluate how he screwed those opportunities up.

His biggest issue is he wants to play how those NJ teams did in the 90's, and the rules and the speed in the game just won't let that happen.

There is nothing wrong with being defensive minded, Trotz was, but you gotta move with the times, and Hynes seems like he is stuck trying to play a game from his childhood.

I also don't get where the idea that he was good with young players came from either. Everything about his tenure here seemed to be bad for most of them. There are a few exceptions, but most of them seemed to come along because his hand was forced, not so much from anything he did.

 

[Kat Predator]

His biggest issue is he wants to play how those NJ teams did in the 90's, and the rules and the speed in the game just won't let that happen.

There is nothing wrong with being defensive minded, Trotz was, but you gotta move with the times, and Hynes seems like he is stuck trying to play a game from his childhood.

I also don't get where the idea that he was good with young players came from either. Everything about his tenure here seemed to be bad for most of them. There are a few exceptions, but most of them seemed to come along because his hand was forced, not so much from anything he did.

The comment about being great with young players came from Poile's introduction of Hynes as his new coach, I believe.

 

[Armourboy]

The comment about being great with young players came from Poile's introduction of Hynes as his new coach, I believe.

Yeah but seems like we had heard that from other places, but it may stem solely from that. If Poile did say that he was definitely wrong.

I would have loved to have been inside Poile's head coming into last season and then by the end. Everything indicates he was willing to roll with Hynes again this year, which just blows my mind.

 

[Kat Predator]

Tend to agree that I think it's a combination of both Hynes and Tomasino. I've stated several times that I'm not sold that even if Tomasino would have had a solid camp that he still wouldn't have been in Milwaukee. I think Hynes got this stubborn idea in his head that every single player needed to be able to hit and be physical or he didn't really want to play them. I think ultimately decisions like that is why he isn't here.

That said, Tomasino coming in and having the camp he did just made it easier for Hynes to be able to send him back down, and then Tomasino more or less going down and being rather lackluster to start the season didn't help his case.

I still stick with the thought that this season is very important for him from an organizational stand point. He might not get traded away yet but he is going to have some guys that are more than capable of pushing him out of the lineup behind him and that leash is going to get short pretty quick.

We have no way of knowing yet just how much patience Trotz is going to have with some of these players. Yeah he mentioned wanting to overcook them a bit in the AHL but that says to me when you do get your shot you better take it because he may only bring you to the table for dinner so many times.

Agreed that a lot is up to Tomasino. He has to put in the work, continue to develop his game, and seize the opportunity provided (if it is provided). He has to prove himself like anybody else in a meritocracy. That's why I keep referring to the gestalt in my posts. We should fully expect some prospects to fail, some to make it but not for long, and a few to really graduate and contribute for multiple seasons. It's the nature of the beast. Tomasino is one data point who fits in that spectrum somewhere. But the interesting thing to me is all the data points leaning a certain direction.

If we have young players that show NHL chops but are pushed out of the lineup, well, honestly, it's something that's good overall. The next guy should be better and make the team better. If Tomasino, specifically, can't nail down a job as a scorer here because of internal competition, he still has value if Trotz can move him for draft picks or player(s) that fit into areas of weaknesses. That's the "good problem" that a GM likes to have.

In Tomasino's case, he is still very young, still not fully developed into a Hulk body, and has been bounced around. I wouldn't feel confident in the least with any prediction that he's a guaranteed bust, middle-6, or superstar. He's shown flashes of talent to me, but he's never looked anything like a finished product.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Yeah but seems like we had heard that from other places, but it may stem solely from that. If Poile did say that he was definitely wrong.

I would have loved to have been inside Poile's head coming into last season and then by the end. Everything indicates he was willing to roll with Hynes again this year, which just blows my mind.

It might stem from Hynes' involvement with Team USA U-18? He spent like 6 years with the USNTDP? That probably made Poile think he'd be "good with kids". Except, it didn't turn out that way when the coach felt he had to win NHL games to stay afloat. He turned out to be a coach who just made bad choices in a "present tense" evaluation of players, without allowing for development on the fly from young players?

Although to this day, I can't really see how he failed to recognize what Tolvanen and Fabbro were doing, in particular. I mean, I'm just sitting at home watching games on stream. But I would have thought those were two such abysmally bad player evaluations on the coaching front that I don't really trust anything else that they decided. Tomasino may or may not have fallen under this umbrella, but if you see the coach so obviously wreck some other more obvious decisions, well then, no "benefit of the doubt" should be extended.