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Buffdog

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I write this with due respect. I worked at my profession for >40 years. Based on my annual work appraisals, I was at least competent. However, over those 40+ years, I had come across more than a few less than competent colleagues. I'd argue that like mine, in most professions one would come across incompetent people. NHL coaches/managers would be no different. Is Coach Bowness incompetent, probably not but he does seem set in his ways. Is Coach Lauer incompetent? Based on his (lack of)success with special teams over the years on several teams, a case could be made.

As for "awfully arrogant argument(s)", that seems a bit harsh. We're all fans here, some casual, some with hockey experience of all sorts of levels. We're here discussing our favorite team warts and all.
OK, now imagine someone who has no real experience in your field of 40 years thinking they could do a better job than you in it because they read a few articles and watched a couple of YouTube videos

There are 32 coaches in the best hockey leagues in the world. Most have forgotten more about coaching a pro hockey team than any of us will ever know
 

MardyBum

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Jul 4, 2012
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Fwiw Ehlers Scheifele Vilardi blow out every single F line here in GF/60 and even edge out every line in GA/60, just don't have the ice time.

Obviously those numbers aren't sustainable but If they wanna start winning heading into the playoffs that is step 1 to fixing the F's. The "second" line is another question entirely.

Edit :

1711918734829.png
 

Flair Hay

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OK, now imagine someone who has no real experience in your field of 40 years thinking they could do a better job than you in it because they read a few articles and watched a couple of YouTube videos

There are 32 coaches in the best hockey leagues in the world. Most have forgotten more about coaching a pro hockey team than any of us will ever know
I feel like this kind of stuff happens constantly in the business world. Progress gets blocked by experienced leaders and decision makers all the time for all kinds of reasons.

Coaches do get most stuff right and they do have to deal with a lot behind closed doors that we are not able or choose not to factor in. Leadership is a very hard job. You only realize how tough it is when you try to do it well.

That said, getting the most out of your team is what it boils down to. Whatever the reason, I can't explain away decisions that appear to be hurting the team by giving the leader the benefit of the doubt due to their experience.

I don't see it is arrogance, I see it as a product of my own increased experience on the value of data based, objective decision making.
 
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Buffdog

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I feel like this kind of stuff happens constantly in the business world. Progress gets blocked by experienced leaders and decision makers all the time for all kinds of reasons.

Coaches do get most stuff right and they do have to deal with a lot behind closed doors that we are not able or choose not to factor in. Leadership is a very hard job. You only realize how tough it is when you try to do it well.

That said, getting the most out of your team is what it boils down to. Whatever the reason, I can't explain away decisions that appear to be hurting the team by giving the leader the benefit of the doubt due to their experience.

I don't see it is arrogance, I see it as a product of my own increased experience on the value of data based, objective decision making.
You don't think that assuming to be able to do somebody's job better than them even though you've never done it in your life and they've been doing it at the highest level for 40 years is arrogant? I think it is

In fact, I think your comment here shows how much you DON'T know about running an NHL bench. It's not JUST about looking at numbers and spreadsheets and trotting guys out on the ice. You have to deal with personalities, egos, etc.

Juat curious... what's the highest level of hockey you've coached?
 
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MardyBum

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He's doing a great job. That time when it was public he spoke to Ehlers and Perfetti specifically about needing to be better and their "performance", and how that has led for Cole. Elite. What a great ripple effect that has had. The lack of any conversations like that with Connor or Scheifele or Monahan. Elite. No human being could look at that and say anything but "yeah, makes sense. They're elite defensive players, no talk needed"

Samberg and others being scratched to "rotate" guys in, while Pionk stinks up the world and hasn't been sat once. Elite.

Connor - Scheifele - "I'm smarter than the world" getting its ass caved in constantly, but refusing to move off it. Elite.

The PP.

The PK.

Don't need to say anything on that garbage. But elite?

He's got some amazing attributes and abilities as a coach (or he did, mostly) but he's got such big f***ing warts you wish Arniel or someone had more power. He had this team playing great D while he desperately tried to f*** it up with his F lines until injuries cucked him. Now when he has *his* vets struggling he can't gather up the balls to treat them the same as the rest.

You can't talk accountability as Rick Bowness is today, because there is none.
 
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Flair Hay

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You don't think that assuming to be able to do somebody's job better than them even though you've never done it in your life and they've been doing it at the highest level for 40 years is arrogant? I think it is

In fact, I think your comment here shows how much you DON'T know about running an NHL bench. It's not JUST about looking at numbers and spreadsheets and trotting guys out on the ice. You have to deal with personalities, egos, etc.

Juat curious... what's the highest level of hockey you've coached?
I haven't coached at all, like most of us probably. Just played growing up and follow the sport. Hoping to start out coaching when my kid hits 5. Corporate leadership, yes a very smalla amount, but certainly not extensive experience.

I didn't say I can do an NHL coach's job better than them, of course not. I tried to allude to a few the difficulties of the role in my previous post. The human elements you mentioned are the hardest part of leadership.

Just because an NHL coach is an NHL coach doesn't mean they don't have blind spots that many outsiders or members of the team notice. Every leader has rationale behind their decision-making. That doesn't mean it is 100% correct. 80-90% of the time it probably is correct.

I don't even feel like any point has been made against me, just discrediting my opinion based on being an average Joe. Which is fine. There are a lot of smart people on here that fit that description.

I actually think that we are starting to agree on parts of this. I do think that personalities, egos of pro athletes have a huge effect and interpersonal dynamics are likely driving the Connor Ehlers line swap saga. It seems like something behind closed doors (Scheif preferring to play with Connor?) It my opinion as an outsider and average Joe that these type of dynamics are getting in the way of objective decision making and hurting the team.

I think it's better off for me not to assume what the intentions are behind closed doors. Research indicates when you assume someone's intent we are wrong more often than not. More to my point, I don't want to assume why Bowness is wrong. It just seems clear to me he is making a mistake. Doesn't matter much to me why, just that he is.

I hope this helps understand my thought process a bit better.
 

Buffdog

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I haven't coached at all, like most of us probably. Just played growing up and follow the sport. Hoping to start out coaching when my kid hits 5. Corporate leadership, yes a very smalla amount, but certainly not extensive experience.

I didn't say I can do an NHL coach's job better than them, of course not. I tried to allude to a few the difficulties of the role in my previous post. The human elements you mentioned are the hardest part of leadership.

Just because an NHL coach is an NHL coach doesn't mean they don't have blind spots that many outsiders or members of the team notice. Every leader has rationale behind their decision-making. That doesn't mean it is 100% correct. 80-90% of the time it probably is correct.

I don't even feel like any point has been made against me, just discrediting my opinion based on being an average Joe. Which is fine. There are a lot of smart people on here that fit that description.

I actually think that we are starting to agree on parts of this. I do think that personalities, egos of pro athletes have a huge effect and interpersonal dynamics are likely driving the Connor Ehlers line swap saga. It seems like something behind closed doors (Scheif preferring to play with Connor?) It my opinion as an outsider and average Joe that these type of dynamics are getting in the way of objective decision making and hurting the team.

I think it's better off for me not to assume what the intentions are behind closed doors. Research indicates when you assume someone's intent we are wrong more often than not. More to my point, I don't want to assume why Bowness is wrong. It just seems clear to me he is making a mistake. Doesn't matter much to me why, just that he is.

I hope this helps understand my thought process a bit better.
Fair enough... and I didn't mean to discredit you by calling you an average Joe, per se. It's just that there is so much more involved with decisions at that level that we don't even know what we don't know, which is why I'm always hesitant to judge what is being done.

I'm willing to say "based what I can see, I don't understand why Bones does that". I'm perfectly fine leaving it there without guessing about his competence or stubbornness or willingness to look at stats and how that plays a role in his decision making, because at that point I'm just guessing and I'm not comfortable drawing conclusions like that

Have fun coaching your kids... Sometimes with the craziness surrounding minor hockey these days, I wonder if Bones' job might actually be easier than coaching a U9 A1 team lol. But it can definitely be as rewarding as it is challenging
 

Buffdog

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He's doing a great job. That time when it was public he spoke to Ehlers and Perfetti specifically about needing to be better and their "performance", and how that has led for Cole. Elite. What a great ripple effect that has had. The lack of any conversations like that with Connor or Scheifele or Monahan. Elite. No human being could look at that and say anything but "yeah, makes sense. They're elite defensive players, no talk needed"

Samberg and others being scratched to "rotate" guys in, while Pionk stinks up the world and hasn't been sat once. Elite.

Connor - Scheifele - "I'm smarter than the world" getting its ass caved in constantly, but refusing to move off it. Elite.

The PP.

The PK.

Don't need to say anything on that garbage. But elite?

He's got some amazing attributes and abilities as a coach (or he did, mostly) but he's got such big f***ing warts you wish Arniel or someone had more power. He had this team playing great D while he desperately tried to f*** it up with his F lines until injuries cucked him. Now when he has *his* vets struggling he can't gather up the balls to treat them the same as the rest.

You can't talk accountability as Rick Bowness is today, because there is none.
Did someone use the word "elite" in this thread?

You're making judgements based on a fraction of the information available. You're obviously comfortable doing so, which is fine. But it involves jumping to conclusions that may or may not be correct. Some of us take a more measured approach
 
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Flair Hay

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Fair enough... and I didn't mean to discredit you by calling you an average Joe, per se. It's just that there is so much more involved with decisions at that level that we don't even know what we don't know, which is why I'm always hesitant to judge what is being done.

I'm willing to say "based what I can see, I don't understand why Bones does that". I'm perfectly fine leaving it there without guessing about his competence or stubbornness or willingness to look at stats and how that plays a role in his decision making, because at that point I'm just guessing and I'm not comfortable drawing conclusions like that

Have fun coaching your kids... Sometimes with the craziness surrounding minor hockey these days, I wonder if Bones' job might actually be easier than coaching a U9 A1 team lol. But it can definitely be as rewarding as it is challenging
Totally agree with the first paragraph. I know not everyone will do this... but I try to criticize the actions I don't agree with as opposed to calling the coach an idiot, dinosaur, etc. The guy has a very tough, demanding job the public scrutinizes more than the prime minister.

Hopefully the parents have reigned it in a bit since half my life ago.
 

Buffdog

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Totally agree with the first paragraph. I know not everyone will do this... but I try to criticize the actions I don't agree with as opposed to calling the coach an idiot, dinosaur, etc. The guy has a very tough, demanding job the public scrutinizes more than the prime minister.

Hopefully the parents have reigned it in a bit since half my life ago.
I have bad news for you lol... it is much, much worse these days. I'll glad all my kids played (my son is at his beer league playoff game as we speak lol) but going back, sometimes I think I should have handed them a guitar and put them in BJJ

That said, I hear that other sports aren't any better. Volleyball had gotten crazy with club teams, etc. But I have also heard that "dance moms" are the absolute worst lol
 

Flair Hay

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I have bad news for you lol... it is much, much worse these days. I'll glad all my kids played (my son is at his beer league playoff game as we speak lol) but going back, sometimes I think I should have handed them a guitar and put them in BJJ

That said, I hear that other sports aren't any better. Volleyball had gotten crazy with club teams, etc. But I have also heard that "dance moms" are the absolute worst lol
Good to know there is worse things to look forward to haha
 

MardyBum

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Did someone use the word "elite" in this thread?

You're making judgements based on a fraction of the information available. You're obviously comfortable doing so, which is fine. But it involves jumping to conclusions that may or may not be correct. Some of us take a more measured approach

Of course, you take a more measured approach when portraying his decisions as having some vast mental and spiritual factor to them, as opposed to trying to win hockey games and being bad at it. It can't be he just likes the wrong guys in the wrong spots, there are metaphysical egos to stroke, (who? You don't know, but just pretend).

I can only argue about his results, because arguing about his mental state or his reasons why make even less sense than why they are right or wrong. I don't care if he thinks kissing Connors ass equals wins. Connor with Scheifele equals losing goals.


It's always easier to explain away shitty decisions by talking about how hard their job is. A Winnipeg special. He has very good points and some very big blind spots like everybody. He is employed in a position where we can view it easier.
 

Buffdog

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Of course, you take a more measured approach when portraying his decisions as having some vast mental and spiritual factor to them, as opposed to trying to win hockey games and being bad at it. It can't be he just likes the wrong guys in the wrong spots, there are metaphysical egos to stroke, (who? You don't know, but just pretend).

I can only argue about his results, because arguing about his mental state or his reasons why make even less sense than why they are right or wrong. I don't care if he thinks kissing Connors ass equals wins. Connor with Scheifele equals losing goals.


It's always easier to explain away shitty decisions by talking about how hard their job is. A Winnipeg special. He has very good points and some very big blind spots like everybody. He is employed in a position where we can view it easier.
I'm not sure what your point is. There's no "arguing" about his results. They are what they are.

You (and many others) feel like he should be making different decisions. He's not. Nobody knows why.

Let it upset you or frustrate you if you want to. I'm perfectly happy turning on the TV and watching the Jets and IDGAF what the lines are because I don't get a say.. so why would I let the decisions of someone who I don't know affect me?

If the Jets win at the end of that game, great. If they lose, I shut the TV off and go on with my life without frustration or angst. It's a bunch of grown men playing a game.

If you or someone else is moved to write a tome on an anonymous message board about all the shitty choices you think Bones is making, have at it. Maybe it will make you feel better by getting a few "likes" from like minded posters, but it ain't changing jack shit in reality.
 

WolfHouse

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Its scary when posters are arguing about the validity of opinions rather than the game... its not a good sign at all.

Here are the things I can't figure out

Connor-Scheif - Bones has acknowledged the analytics and made a comment about wanting to keep Perfetti on the RW - thats why he didn't play ESV - but with a handful of games left he's out of time and Perfetti is gone. The likely answer is that Scheif has SOME degree of influence - maybe even in his contract? - over who he plays with... I just cant think of another reasonable scenario

Pionk - his game has never been great but he's fallen off a cliff. Billeck thinks he's injured - but how are we not giving Samberg a shot in the top 4 if he's the D of the future. This one seems like the coaches have blinders because Pionk plays in ALL critical situations. D is a huge problem on the team now and we have 3 D-first Dmen - Samberg, Stanley and Miller - who have never seen the ice together and never will.

The System - Bones system relies on a hard forecheck, a committed back check and forwards covering for D when they engage. How did the team, as a whole, end up abandoning this game... does it really just take 1-2 guys to not 'buy in' or due to minor injuries 'not keep up' with the system? I'd like to believe that Connor and Pionk's awful games are due to injury but I actually don't... I think they both have Laine syndrome where they never had to pay their dues like Ehlers and Samberg have, now their 'mental conditioning' doesn't last the season.

Miller - This makes no sense - yeah sure he's depth... but he doesn't have anywhere near enough games to step into Bones system (if we still played it). He has a booming shot that we have never let him use. I do not share the love for Schmidt - he has played 'scramble' all season - like he is just a shade behind the play, sometimes he recovers and its a 'good' game for him and other times he looks lost... but he gets chance after chance.

4th line - We had a dominating bottom six in the first half of the season - and it has been sacrificed to prevent bigger names from being scratched. The 4th line is always 'good' but they were dominant if that can be used for a 4th line... the system relies on speed and our lineup is not fast overall - I think that's one of the main problems.

The more you look at this, the more it makes sense to bench Connor and Pionk for a game... trouble is that was probably the Washington game or Ottawa...
 

jetsfan15

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Jul 17, 2016
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Its scary when posters are arguing about the validity of opinions rather than the game... its not a good sign at all.

Here are the things I can't figure out

Connor-Scheif - Bones has acknowledged the analytics and made a comment about wanting to keep Perfetti on the RW - thats why he didn't play ESV - but with a handful of games left he's out of time and Perfetti is gone. The likely answer is that Scheif has SOME degree of influence - maybe even in his contract? - over who he plays with... I just cant think of another reasonable scenario

Pionk - his game has never been great but he's fallen off a cliff. Billeck thinks he's injured - but how are we not giving Samberg a shot in the top 4 if he's the D of the future. This one seems like the coaches have blinders because Pionk plays in ALL critical situations. D is a huge problem on the team now and we have 3 D-first Dmen - Samberg, Stanley and Miller - who have never seen the ice together and never will.

The System - Bones system relies on a hard forecheck, a committed back check and forwards covering for D when they engage. How did the team, as a whole, end up abandoning this game... does it really just take 1-2 guys to not 'buy in' or due to minor injuries 'not keep up' with the system? I'd like to believe that Connor and Pionk's awful games are due to injury but I actually don't... I think they both have Laine syndrome where they never had to pay their dues like Ehlers and Samberg have, now their 'mental conditioning' doesn't last the season.

Miller - This makes no sense - yeah sure he's depth... but he doesn't have anywhere near enough games to step into Bones system (if we still played it). He has a booming shot that we have never let him use. I do not share the love for Schmidt - he has played 'scramble' all season - like he is just a shade behind the play, sometimes he recovers and its a 'good' game for him and other times he looks lost... but he gets chance after chance.

4th line - We had a dominating bottom six in the first half of the season - and it has been sacrificed to prevent bigger names from being scratched. The 4th line is always 'good' but they were dominant if that can be used for a 4th line... the system relies on speed and our lineup is not fast overall - I think that's one of the main problems.

The more you look at this, the more it makes sense to bench Connor and Pionk for a game... trouble is that was probably the Washington game or Ottawa...

Yeah, I mean we’ve debated the whole
Ehlers w/ Scheifele (and Connor away from
Scheif) quite a bit. I am in the 27-55-13 (and 81 on second line) camp, the numbers speak for themselves. But it is what it is — It’s become clear that it won’t be deployed that way, at least not consistently. The Pionk thing is interesting though, because he isn’t a “star” in the same way the KC is. Yet, despite Pionk’s terrible play, Bones doesn’t seem to have an interest in rotating him out of the line up. The strange thing is we have options — Miller is sitting in the press box and it would seem like a low-risk option to test out right now. I’m also not sure about this “need to have a right shot D on right D no matter what” philosophy — I think Samberg could do ok in that spot. But if that’s really the issue, then why not try out Miller at this point. Pionk’s play had been a major problem and nothing is being done to address it. I think Chevy did his job by getting Miller as a depth player, but now is perhaps the time to test it out - this seems to be the time where you would utilize the depth?
 

JetsUK

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Oct 1, 2015
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I haven't coached at all, like most of us probably. Just played growing up and follow the sport. Hoping to start out coaching when my kid hits 5. Corporate leadership, yes a very smalla amount, but certainly not extensive experience.

I didn't say I can do an NHL coach's job better than them, of course not. I tried to allude to a few the difficulties of the role in my previous post. The human elements you mentioned are the hardest part of leadership.

Just because an NHL coach is an NHL coach doesn't mean they don't have blind spots that many outsiders or members of the team notice. Every leader has rationale behind their decision-making. That doesn't mean it is 100% correct. 80-90% of the time it probably is correct.

I don't even feel like any point has been made against me, just discrediting my opinion based on being an average Joe. Which is fine. There are a lot of smart people on here that fit that description.

I actually think that we are starting to agree on parts of this. I do think that personalities, egos of pro athletes have a huge effect and interpersonal dynamics are likely driving the Connor Ehlers line swap saga. It seems like something behind closed doors (Scheif preferring to play with Connor?) It my opinion as an outsider and average Joe that these type of dynamics are getting in the way of objective decision making and hurting the team.

I think it's better off for me not to assume what the intentions are behind closed doors. Research indicates when you assume someone's intent we are wrong more often than not. More to my point, I don't want to assume why Bowness is wrong. It just seems clear to me he is making a mistake. Doesn't matter much to me why, just that he is.

I hope this helps understand my thought process a bit better.

Good post.

I'd only add that the NHL coaching gig has been a mostly closed shop for a long time now, consisting substantially of the same core group of HC and assistants who move from team to team. In any given season how many of those 32 coaches have never before coached in the NHL? How many have made it to those positions by virtue of their tactical / man-management / whatever brilliance in or innovations vs having stuck around long enough to win the "trust" of a GM in a famously cautious league? We talk about "retreads" all the time round here, for good reason. If new blood isn't entering the sport regularly at the highest levels, then where are the best new ideas coming from?

The claim "There are only 32 coaching jobs in the world's greatest league; ergo those 32 coaches are the best in the world" is a textbook tautology. Maybe Bones is indeed one of the world's 32 best hockey coaches, or maybe he isn't. But even if he is, there's things to learn, surely.

It's hard to watch our PP or PK, for example, and imagine that the tactics and deployments we're seeing are truly the best ones possible, given the results, eyetest and stats. If coaching decisions are producing less than optimal results then discussion of them is fair game for fans, just as the play of any particular player is -- though all here would agree that even the worst Jet is a far better player than we are.

I don't think it's arrogant to query coaching decisions that seem to make the team worse, or applaud those that make the team better. If Rick and his staff know what ails this team -- as we've heard -- and can't fix it, that's an issue. If they don't know and can't fix it, also an issue.

Hopefully they have the insight, solutions and authority to sort out special teams and deployment to get the Jets in shape for a strong playoffs. I think that's what fans want and are hoping for. I know I bloody am.

Yeah, I mean we’ve debated the whole
Ehlers w/ Scheifele (and Connor away from
Scheif) quite a bit. I am in the 27-55-13 (and 81 on second line) camp, the numbers speak for themselves. But it is what it is — It’s become clear that it won’t be deployed that way, at least not consistently. The Pionk thing is interesting though, because he isn’t a “star” in the same way the KC is. Yet, despite Pionk’s terrible play, Bones doesn’t seem to have an interest in rotating him out of the line up. The strange thing is we have options — Miller is sitting in the press box and it would seem like a low-risk option to test out right now. I’m also not sure about this “need to have a right shot D on right D no matter what” philosophy — I think Samberg could do ok in that spot. But if that’s really the issue, then why not try out Miller at this point. Pionk’s play had been a major problem and nothing is being done to address it. I think Chevy did his job by getting Miller as a depth player, but now is perhaps the time to test it out - this seems to be the time where you would utilize the depth?

Agree -- no idea why Pionk seems to evade scrutiny of his play game after game and season after season. We spent assets for Miller. Let's use him. He may not hit the (increasingly rare) Pionk higher highs, but if he doesn't hit the Pionk low lows it's a win.

And Samberg's mysterious benching? Clueless.
 

Adam da bomb

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May 1, 2016
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Of course, you take a more measured approach when portraying his decisions as having some vast mental and spiritual factor to them, as opposed to trying to win hockey games and being bad at it. It can't be he just likes the wrong guys in the wrong spots, there are metaphysical egos to stroke, (who? You don't know, but just pretend).

I can only argue about his results, because arguing about his mental state or his reasons why make even less sense than why they are right or wrong. I don't care if he thinks kissing Connors ass equals wins. Connor with Scheifele equals losing goals.


It's always easier to explain away shitty decisions by talking about how hard their job is. A Winnipeg special. He has very good points and some very big blind spots like everybody. He is employed in a position where we can view it easier.
I think it's less about kissing Connor's ass and kissing Chef's ass, but, other than that I agree with your general point.
 

jetsfan15

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Jul 17, 2016
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I can’t see why/how you don’t run the same second line on Thursday. KC looked great on there and then the elephant in the room: Perfetti and what to do with him, I can’t see how you take him out or move him to a 4th line role after that game. And I think you therefore leave the top line as is then (and I think that top line will do quite well despite perhaps not having its greatest game tonight).
So now the big question: you have to put Toffoli somewhere; the guy is a season-after-season 30-goal scorer who has won a cup, you don’t healthy scratch that — gotta put him in somewhere.

I didn’t get the sense that Nino’s injury is particularly serious (didn’t sound like it was going to be a long term thing, although I suppose it could keep him out of Thursday’s game based on Bones’ vague comments). Assuming Nino doesn’t miss much time (if any at all), I think Toffoli goes on that 3rd line on the right side? Then what to do with Appleton and the 4th line.

Decisions, decisions…
 
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surixon

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I can’t see why/how you don’t run the same second line on Thursday. KC looked great on there and then the elephant in the room: Perfetti and what to do with him, I can’t see how you take him out or move him to a 4th line role after that game. And I think you therefore leave the top line as is then (and I think that top line will do quite well despite perhaps not having its greatest game tonight).
So now the big question: you have to put Toffoli somewhere; the guy is a season-after-season 30-goal scorer who has won a cup, you don’t healthy scratch that — gotta put him in somewhere.

I didn’t get the sense that Nino’s injury is particularly serious (didn’t sound like it was going to be a long term thing, although I suppose it could keep him out of Thursday’s game based on Bones’ vague comments). Assuming Nino doesn’t miss much time (if any at all), I think Toffoli goes on that 3rd line on the right side? Then what to do with Appleton and the 4th line.

Decisions, decisions…

Maybe adding Toffoli to the Lowry line makes us a dangerous 3 line scoring team heading into the postseason.
 

WolfHouse

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Maybe adding Toffoli to the Lowry line makes us a dangerous 3 line scoring team heading into the postseason.
For a guy who tirelessly campaigned against Perfetti's unfair benching... to which I agree up to a certain point.... why would you now start lobbying for Apples removal - after he gets several high danger chances and the third line really dominated their matchups?

Toffoli has a small sample size but he's not scoring at a rate much higher than Apples... and yeah, Bones is not messing with the third line.
 

surixon

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Jul 12, 2003
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For a guy who tirelessly campaigned against Perfetti's unfair benching... to which I agree up to a certain point.... why would you now start lobbying for Apples removal - after he gets several high danger chances and the third line really dominated their matchups?

Toffoli has a small sample size but he's not scoring at a rate much higher than Apples... and yeah, Bones is not messing with the third line.

He is scoring at quite a bit higher rate then Apples 5 on 5. 1.84 to 1.44 p/60.

Also I would pull Appelton out of the lineup. I'd move him to line 4 and take out Barron. I think Mason would help that line score a bit more.

But I'd have no issue not playing Toffoli either but fat chance the org spent those assets for him to leave him in the PB.
 

10Ducky10

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Jul 5, 2015
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Tof is not a match for Lowry's line unless they are putting him there to learn how to play D.
 

LowLefty

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Dec 29, 2016
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For a guy who tirelessly campaigned against Perfetti's unfair benching... to which I agree up to a certain point.... why would you now start lobbying for Apples removal - after he gets several high danger chances and the third line really dominated their matchups?

Toffoli has a small sample size but he's not scoring at a rate much higher than Apples... and yeah, Bones is not messing with the third line.
Bones might mess with that line if there is a good reason to do it -
Do we want to give that second line another game or two to confirm if there is something there beyond the one game where they were solid and more importantly, productive? I would.
It's not like Apples is the driving force on the Lowry line - Nino and Lowes do most of the heavy lifting and adding a guy that might not be as defensive but knows how to score, could give us a third that can do a little of both.

At the end of the day, Bones has a good problem that he has to deal with - he might have found a combo that can light it up on the second - and based on the hundreds of posts on how well Ehlers is going to drive that 1st line and how productive they are with him, you now have that elusive top 6 they have been looking for - maybe.

So the question is, what is more important right now?
Small samples and all but last night, we saw a productive 2nd line - and we've been handing over assets to get something going on the second - so why not see if you can make something work here.

And BTW, I love the third line - never thought I'd see the day where I would support tinkering with it - but this might be the time based on our needs going into the PO's.
 

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