Prospect Info: 2023-24 Prospect Info (CHL, NCAA, Europe)

[tigervixxxen]

Does Weiss going back to college mean that the Avs retain his rights for one more year?

I don’t think so, not like there will be any clarity but he was already a free agent, not like that stuff reverts. its clear they don’t want him anyway, just consider him gone.

 

[henchman21]

Does Weiss going back to college mean that the Avs retain his rights for one more year?

Teams do not retain rights to players

 

[tigervixxxen]

Teams do not retain rights to players

They do with 5th year players like Leivermann, that’s the question

 

[henchman21]

They do with 5th year players like Leivermann, that’s the question

It is about timing and declarations. Leivermann never 'left' school. He is a graduate, but is using his extra Covid year. He declarted in April that he was back... so there is no time between his graduation and continuing to use his NCAA eligibility. Per the NHL CBA, he is treated like he never left school... so the Avs retain his rights until the August that he is no longer in school. Weiss was a graduate and never declared (to my knowledge) he was going back to school prior to his rights lapsing. Meaning that his rights lapsed this summer, became a free agent, and then returned to school. Him going back to school simply means he's taking advantage of the extra year. Now if Weiss stated to the Avs/NHL in say June that he was returning to school, the Avs would retain his rights.

 

[Richard88]

It is about timing and declarations. Leivermann never 'left' school. He is a graduate, but is using his extra Covid year. He declarted in April that he was back... so there is no time between his graduation and continuing to use his NCAA eligibility. Per the NHL CBA, he is treated like he never left school... so the Avs retain his rights until the August that he is no longer in school. Weiss was a graduate and never declared (to my knowledge) he was going back to school prior to his rights lapsing. Meaning that his rights lapsed this summer, became a free agent, and then returned to school. Him going back to school simply means he's taking advantage of the extra year. Now if Weiss stated to the Avs/NHL in say June that he was returning to school, the Avs would retain his rights.

There's the answer I was looking for. I suspected that that was the case. Thanks for the thorough explanation.

 

[ABasin]

It is about timing and declarations. Leivermann never 'left' school. He is a graduate, but is using his extra Covid year. He declarted in April that he was back... so there is no time between his graduation and continuing to use his NCAA eligibility. Per the NHL CBA, he is treated like he never left school... so the Avs retain his rights until the August that he is no longer in school. Weiss was a graduate and never declared (to my knowledge) he was going back to school prior to his rights lapsing. Meaning that his rights lapsed this summer, became a free agent, and then returned to school. Him going back to school simply means he's taking advantage of the extra year. Now if Weiss stated to the Avs/NHL in say June that he was returning to school, the Avs would retain his rights.

Interesting. Thank you for posting this. I learned something today.

I may not understand this fully, but doesn’t this seem like a loophole for college guys to gain free agency?

“I’m done with college……(then in August)…….just kidding. One more year, then I’m a FA!”

On the surface, seems like a pretty easy way to buck the system. I suppose it’s dependent on the college roster spot still being open. What am I missing?

 

[henchman21]

Interesting. Thank you for posting this. I learned something today.

I may not understand this fully, but doesn’t this seem like a loophole for college guys to gain free agency?

“I’m done with college……(then in August)…….just kidding. One more year, then I’m a FA!”

On the surface, seems like a pretty easy way to buck the system. I suppose it’s dependent on the college roster spot still being open. What am I missing?

With the Weiss situation, you have a one-off thing where the NCAA gave a blanket waiver for an extra year to everyone... that won't happen often.

With any college player, they can leave college at anytime the want and a countdown will start on their reserve rights. For the most part, that is 4 years after their draft. So if in their +1 they are in college, but exit out after that season.. the team will have until 4 years after the draft year to sign them. No matter where they play after that. There is some nuance to this that can change that (ie drafted at 20 or older changes the years), but think of that as the rule of thumb for when players leave early.

 

[ABasin]

With the Weiss situation, you have a one-off thing where the NCAA gave a blanket waiver for an extra year to everyone... that won't happen often.

With any college player, they can leave college at anytime the want and a countdown will start on their reserve rights. For the most part, that is 4 years after their draft. So if in their +1 they are in college, but exit out after that season.. the team will have until 4 years after the draft year to sign them. No matter where they play after that. There is some nuance to this that can change that (ie drafted at 20 or older changes the years), but think of that as the rule of thumb for when players leave early.

Oh, I see. The Covid rule. It's the 5th year kicking in that did it?

What happens if a player "redshirts" a season, due to injury or something? So, their senior season is actually 5 years after their draft year.

 

[tigervixxxen]

There is a loophole some guys have taken advantage of if they don’t go to school right away like they go to the USHL the year after they are drafted they can leave school after their junior year and declare themselves a free agent. I forget exactly who pulled this but it happens.

Stienburg didn’t play at all his Sophomore season so not sure if he gets that extra one ABasin mentions. I think he’s leaving school after this year regardless.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Does anyone follow the KHL? I was looking at Kovalenko's stat and it dawned on me... last season with Lokomitiv Yaroslavl in 41 games he averaged .268P/G, this season with Ak Bars Kazan he's averaging .483P/G in 29 contests. While still nothing to write home about, that's a pretty big jump in production, eh? Is this a sign that he's developing still or does it have to do with the switch in teams?

 

[henchman21]

There is a loophole some guys have taken advantage of if they don’t go to school right away like they go to the USHL the year after they are drafted they can leave school after their junior year and declare themselves a free agent. I forget exactly who pulled this but it happens.

Stienburg didn’t play at all his Sophomore season so not sure if he gets that extra one ABasin mentions. I think he’s leaving school after this year regardless.

That’s not really a loophole… it is the +4 situation. They aren’t really free agents right away either. There is time for the drafting team to sign in those situations.

Does anyone follow the KHL? I was looking at Kovalenko's stat and it dawned on me... last season with Lokomitiv Yaroslavl in 41 games he averaged .268P/G, this season with Ak Bars Kazan he's averaging .483P/G in 29 contests. While still nothing to write home about, that's a pretty big jump in production, eh? Is this a sign that he's developing still or does it have to do with the switch in teams?

It was more about the minutes he got… at Loko he was in the bottom of the lineup all the time. At Ak Bars, he got more time in the middle of the lineup.

 

[henchman21]

Oh, I see. The Covid rule. It's the 5th year kicking in that did it?

What happens if a player "redshirts" a season, due to injury or something? So, their senior season is actually 5 years after their draft year.

The +4 rule can be triggered at any time whether it is 4/5/6 years after the draft… but as long as a player stays in school the whole time, the drafting team holds rights. So if a player plays 1 ushl year, redshirts, then 2 college years… they can leave an become a free agent after a time.

Reserve List FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

NHL teams reserve list, frequently asked questions and answers

www.capfriendly.com

 

[ndmd99]

That’s not really a loophole… it is the +4 situation. They aren’t really free agents right away either. There is time for the drafting team to sign in those situations.


It was more about the minutes he got… at Loko he was in the bottom of the lineup all the time. At Ak Bars, he got more time in the middle of the lineup.

I get what you're saying about it not being a loophole, although it has been described that way in the past.

NHL CBA: NCAA loophole altered...barely

The CBA rules have been clarified on the NCAA "loophole," but Anders Lee still could have become a free agent this summer if he really wanted to.

www.lighthousehockey.com

The last CBA was tightened to keep seniors from getting the double benefit of a college degree and becoming a free agent soon after leaving school. If that's the intent, it still seems like there's a true loophole that doesn't seem to be exploited.

If a player went to the USHL for a year and then college for 3 years, they could "leave" school to become a free agent. And then just return to school for their senior year to graduate and/or sign with any team whenever they wanted. Similar to what it seems like Weiss just did, except it would happen between the 3rd and 4th college seasons.

If that loophole exists, it makes me think there may be some gentleman's agreement amongst teams/agents/advisors/coaches to not exploit it. If players started doing this, it would disincentivize NHL teams from drafting kids that are heading to USHL before college (probably mostly mid/late round selections like Romaine) which would drive talent away from the NCAA route.

 

[henchman21]

I get what you're saying about it not being a loophole, although it has been described that way in the past.

NHL CBA: NCAA loophole altered...barely

The CBA rules have been clarified on the NCAA "loophole," but Anders Lee still could have become a free agent this summer if he really wanted to.

www.lighthousehockey.com

The last CBA was tightened to keep seniors from getting the double benefit of a college degree and becoming a free agent soon after leaving school. If that's the intent, it still seems like there's a true loophole that doesn't seem to be exploited.

If a player went to the USHL for a year and then college for 3 years, they could "leave" school to become a free agent. And then just return to school for their senior year to graduate and/or sign with any team whenever they wanted. Similar to what it seems like Weiss just did, except it would happen between the 3rd and 4th college seasons.

If that loophole exists, it makes me think there may be some gentleman's agreement amongst teams/agents/advisors/coaches to not exploit it. If players started doing this, it would disincentivize NHL teams from drafting kids that are heading to USHL before college (probably mostly mid/late round selections like Romaine) which would drive talent away from the NCAA route.

People describe it that way, but it makes zero sense… any player, even a #1 overall pick coming out of the OHL can be a total unrestricted free agent if they want in 4 years. People getting up in arms about it in college is odd to me. With college kids and euros at 18/19, you generally have 4 years to sign them… if you can’t decide or convince by then… too bad…

 

[tigervixxxen]

It is not a viable option for CHL players because where would they go to wait for the 4 years to be up? Go through the draft twice, refuse to sign, spend an overage year plus one in Europe or two in Europe just to become a free agent? The path is not worth it.

 

[henchman21]

It is not a viable option for CHL players because where would they go to wait for the 4 years to be up? Go through the draft twice, refuse to sign, spend an overage year plus one in Europe or two in Europe just to become a free agent? The path is not worth it.

The path may not be worth it, but it is the same amount of time. If you can wait 4 years you can be a UFA. If you can’t, you go with the team that has your rights.

 

[Metallo]

The path may not be worth it, but it is the same amount of time. If you can wait 4 years you can be a UFA. If you can’t, you go with the team that has your rights.

I wonder why some players from NA don't go to Euro leagues to get a better pay than in the AHL (and CHL)?

 

[henchman21]

I wonder why some players from NA don't go to Euro leagues to get a better pay than in the AHL (and CHL)?

Matthews did… but it comes down to a bias for the development system in NA (still widely regarded as better over here). Many Euros still come over to develop here and get the visibility of being near scouts. A fringe 1st round guy that goes to Europe and struggles against men could easily be forgotten. I think that fear ruins the thought of a quicker payday.

 

[Metallo]

Matthews did… but it comes down to a bias for the development system in NA (still widely regarded as better over here). Many Euros still come over to develop here and get the visibility of being near scouts. A fringe 1st round guy that goes to Europe and struggles against men could easily be forgotten. I think that fear ruins the thought of a quicker payday.

Yeah I think it's that, conventional thinking. It was genius by Matthews but he's a freak. I think Europe would be good for a specific type of prospects that are physically (and mentally) mature and ready to play against men. The benefit of less games and travel and more time to practice and train could help some also. And the opportunity of living in a nice Euro city over some AHL dump could also have it's appeal.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The only reason anyone chooses to play in the AHL is for the belief they are only one phone call away. When they give up the dream is when they go to Europe. As far as Europe vs CHL it’s tricky because there is an adjustment period to NA that they have to deal with eventually but also have to be careful to not come over too early. Visibility helps some guys more, playing vs men in good situations helps others more. That one is trickier to call.

Matthews was also 18 his entire draft year because of the mid September birthday. Something that prevents just about near anyone else from following that path even if they could pull it off.

 

[Foppa2118]

It is not a viable option for CHL players because where would they go to wait for the 4 years to be up? Go through the draft twice, refuse to sign, spend an overage year plus one in Europe or two in Europe just to become a free agent? The path is not worth it.

Yeah that's why it's different for CHL vs NCAA. CHL players have to make a decision where to play pro two years after being drafted. NCAA players don't have to make a decision on where to play pro for 4 years.

Highly drafted CHL players aren't going to go to Europe, so they can get paid less than the NHL, play a style of hockey they're not used to potentially on bigger ice, see their notoriety diminish, and risk a career ending injury without a contract. Even if the go to the AHL, they usually believe they can get called up.

All NCAA players have to do is stay in college where they are. They don't have to move. They presumably earn a degree or get close to one. And they get to play college hockey which is probably a big deal for them.

 

[PAZ]

The only reason anyone chooses to play in the AHL is for the belief they are only one phone call away. When they give up the dream is when they go to Europe. As far as Europe vs CHL it’s tricky because there is an adjustment period to NA that they have to deal with eventually but also have to be careful to not come over too early. Visibility helps some guys more, playing vs men in good situations helps others more. That one is trickier to call.

Matthews was also 18 his entire draft year because of the mid September birthday. Something that prevents just about near anyone else from following that path even if they could pull it off.

I don't think it's that tricky.

99.9% of players don't outgrow the CHL at age 17/18, even if they are dominant compared to their peers, as there is other facets to their game they can work on. Byram is a prime example of this when he went back in his D+1 year.

The other, and most important factor is... that they're still teenagers. Why would they leave their friends and teammates to go abroad and live in Europe, where there is a good chance where English isn't the primary language and they don't know anybody else?

The only argument I can see where Europe could be a consideration is for exceptional prospects like Matthews, Lafreniere, Bedard where they've dominated the league since they were 16 and need to adapt to a more professional game.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The point was about Europeans coming over for the CHL like Olausson did not vice versa.

It is not an option for North Americans to do the opposite because they have to be 18 to play in Europe as an import. They also have signed a contract to play in the CHL if they are already there. This is what prevents them from playing anywhere but the CHL as well. Matthews was the exception to be able to do this because a) he was very good b) had a mid September 18th birthday and could begin playing in Europe once he turned 18 c) aged out of the NTDP so he did not have a team he was leaving, never signed in the CHL, didn’t start college, etc. Bedard and Lafrenière couldn’t because they’d already been in the CHL and had a contract. Jack Hughes could have thought about it but he was 17 in his draft year and was at the NTDP still so that wasn’t an option either. So it drives me insane when the media throws around so and so should go to Europe like Matthews but unless they fit the exact set of circumstances that he did it’s not going to happen. Would be interesting if someone decided to go to Europe instead of the NCAA tho, that could be a good case study!

 

[AvsFan2123]

Wasn’t sure where to put this, but looks like Avs are inviting Gabriel Klassen to camp. Anyone know about him? Decent looking numbers in WHL for a good D+1 year but also has some solid teammates so don’t know how much impact that has on him.

 

[henchman21]

Wasn’t sure where to put this, but looks like Avs are inviting Gabriel Klassen to camp. Anyone know about him? Decent looking numbers in WHL for a good D+1 year but also has some solid teammates so don’t know how much impact that has on him.

He was a highly touted player going into the Dub that never really took off like was expected of him. I don't think he's a legit NHL prospect, maybe a guy that can play a middle 6 role on an AHL team in time. He's a good skater though and has a better than you'd think shot that he's very willing to use.