2022 European Men's Handball Championship

[AB13]

Surprised that Dujshebaev has not been mentioned among the very best in these discussions. He is top 5 player ever.

 

[Hockeyfrilla]

Kings of Europe!

 

[AB13]

The drama in handball is just unreal.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Was that last penalty really a penalty?

 

[Eye of Ra]

Next handball tournament is WC in Sweden and Poland, 2023 jan.

Perfect with home tournament now that we have sucess in our back.

 

[Panteras]

I’m not into handball as I’ve never been exposed to it, but is Spain like an up and comer type in this sport? Do they have a bright future or is this some golden era team that will soon fade, kind of like Czech Nagano team or something?
Like is Spain poised to be a powerhouse in this sport?

 

[Havre]

Spain have been among the best teams in the world since the late 90s or something.

Never been dominating like Sweden and France have at times, but typically up there among the teams that can win tournaments.

And they got a solid league. So they will be among the top teams going forward as well. Even if handball is expanding quite rapidly so competition is just getting harder and harder.

 

[AB13]

The current spanish team is very old. But I still think their future is quite bright. Got good coaches.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Update!

Rank	Nation	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total
1	Sweden	5	1	0	6
2	France	3	0	2	5
3	Spain	2	5	2	9
4	Denmark	2	1	4	7
5	Germany	2	1	1	4
6	Russia	1	2	0	3
7	Croatia	0	3	3	6
8	Serbia	0	1	0	1
Slovenia	0	1	0	1
10	FR Yugoslavia	0	0	1	1
Iceland	0	0	1	1
Norway	0	0	1	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Eye of Ra]

Surprised that Dujshebaev has not been mentioned among the very best in these discussions. He is top 5 player ever.

Are you talking about Talant or his sons?

He and his sons should have played for Russia!

 

[AB13]

Are you talking about Talant or his sons?

He and his sons should have played for Russia!

Talant, of course. His sons haven't hit quite the same levels.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Ok.

Best goalkeepers ever:

Tomas Svensson, Sterbik, Omeyer. Landin, Lavrov.

Coolest keeper ever: Vlado Sola

 

[Islay1989]

Spain have been among the best teams in the world since the late 90s or something.

Never been dominating like Sweden and France have at times, but typically up there among the teams that can win tournaments.

And they got a solid league. So they will be among the top teams going forward as well. Even if handball is expanding quite rapidly so competition is just getting harder and harder.

Their league most certainly isn't solid. It's Barca and that's it, every other decent international level Spaniard leaves and plays in one of Germany, Hungary, Poland or France. But as a country, they produce an insane amount of talent, the most important factor being that they pump out great coaches left and right. They have been a good side starting with the team built around Talant, Masip, Garalda and Baruffet. Their current generation is in the twilight of their careers, but the talent pool is so big it's hard not to see them remain at least on par with other top teams like Denmark, France, Sweden, Croatia, Norway etc.

As for the tournament, absolute abomination, and a travesty. Really hard getting excited about games in which you don't know the roster on the morning of the game. As a Croat I selfishly really had little interest in watching a team that was missing the #1GK and 4 of their best players in Dule, Karacic, Cindric and Stepancic.

 

[QuietContrarian]

Their league most certainly isn't solid. It's Barca and that's it, every other decent international level Spaniard leaves and plays in one of Germany, Hungary, Poland or France. But as a country, they produce an insane amount of talent, the most important factor being that they pump out great coaches left and right. They have been a good side starting with the team built around Talant, Masip, Garalda and Baruffet. Their current generation is in the twilight of their careers, but the talent pool is so big it's hard not to see them remain at least on par with other top teams like Denmark, France, Sweden, Croatia, Norway etc.

As for the tournament, absolute abomination, and a travesty. Really hard getting excited about games in which you don't know the roster on the morning of the game. As a Croat I selfishly really had little interest in watching a team that was missing the #1GK and 4 of their best players in Dule, Karacic, Cindric and Stepancic.

Don't know about Denmark tbh.

They have insane depth, and a good few star players.

But they are the biggest chokers on earth imo.

2013 Final loss to Spain, 2014 Final loss to France (At home no less) Huge defeats in finals.
2020 Olympic final against France, they came out horrible, and only saved a bit of their rep in the end.

Ever since that final they have been bad imo - This Euro was not a test at all untill they met France and Spain - And against France they threw a big lead like idiots, and they were dominated by an "inferior" (on paper) Spanish team that had the read them like an open book.

The problem is the coach - Unlike Wilbek, he has no clue what to do when things arent going as planned. (Wilbek was a master at this)

He has no plan B at all - He is a great coach when things go his way tho.

Like who rests your players against France, and get them totally out of their groove.

And against Spain, he was so passive - Hansen played like shit, and Gidsel was completely shut down, Lauge played like shit.

Yet he puts in Mensah instead of Lauge, who has the completely same style of play, and he lets' Hansen and Gidsel play all game.
No Kirkeløkke or Mensing, no let's just go with what hasn't worked all game with no urgency - He also waits waaay too long with the timeouts.

Let's be honest, with all the covid cases for other teams, this tourney was Denmarks to loose.

At least they got a Bronze, as the EC has been a hard tourney for us since 2012. Yeah silver at home in 2014, but loosing huge to France in the final is not a pass from me.

Sweden while not better on paper, have this insane ability to find f***ing Thanos within themselves and overachieve.
Spain the same, they might play boring, destructive handball, but it works, they are masters at destroying their opponents game.

France never had these major losses in finals, and continue to get into Semi Finals and Finals with an ageing squad.
Only Croatia have struggled outside the 2020 Final.

I don't understand Norway tho - And not sure I agree with @Havre that they are better on paper than Denmark in everything but goal - Find that opinion quite astonishing tbh.

Sidenote, I think Sweden still did well, even tho they did not play well in the prelim.

They swept their main round.

Just look at Denmark in 2012, they had two losses and a win in their group stage.
But swept the main round and won.

 

[Islay1989]

Don't know about Denmark tbh.

They have insane depth, and a good few star players.

But they are the biggest chokers on earth imo.

2013 Final loss to Spain, 2014 Final loss to France (At home no less) Huge defeats in finals.
2020 Olympic final against France, they came out horrible, and only saved a bit of their rep in the end.

Ever since that final they have been bad imo - This Euro was not a test at all untill they met France and Spain - And against France they threw a big lead like idiots, and they were dominated by an "inferior" (on paper) Spanish team that had the read them like an open book.

The problem is the coach - Unlike Wilbek, he has no clue what to do when things arent going as planned. (Wilbek was a master at this)

He has no plan B at all - He is a great coach when things go his way tho.

Like who rests your players against France, and get them totally out of their groove.

And against Spain, he was so passive - Hansen played like shit, and Gidsel was completely shut down, Lauge played like shit.

Yet he puts in Mensah instead of Lauge, who has the completely same style of play, and he lets' Hansen and Gidsel play all game.
No Kirkeløkke or Mensing, no let's just go with what hasn't worked all game with no urgency - He also waits waaay too long with the timeouts.

Let's be honest, with all the covid cases for other teams, this tourney was Denmarks to loose.

At least they got a Bronze, as the EC has been a hard tourney for us since 2012. Yeah silver at home in 2014, but loosing huge to France in the final is not a pass from me.

Sweden while not better on paper, have this insane ability to find f***ing Thanos within themselves and overachieve.
Spain the same, they might play boring, destructive handball, but it works, they are masters at destroying their opponents game.

France never had these major losses in finals, and continue to get into Semi Finals and Finals with an ageing squad.
Only Croatia have struggled outside the 2020 Final.

I don't understand Norway tho - And not sure I agree with @Havre that they are better on paper than Denmark in everything but goal - Find that opinion quite astonishing tbh.

Sidenote, I think Sweden still did well, even tho they did not play well in the prelim.

They swept their main round.

Just look at Denmark in 2012, they had two losses and a win in their group stage.
But swept the main round and won.

I'll get into it in more detail later and break down everything, but for now, I'll just say that the refs criteria plays a huge part in teams going far. The best case in point is Serbia in their home European Championship, refs let them murder others on D and let their attack go on for 1:30mins while the other teams were faced with passive attack after half a minute.

 

[Havre]

I think Norways six best players, on paper, both in attack and defence is quite spectacular (especially now when Barthold has so seamlessly replaced Jøndal). Especially in attack (which is what I mentioned) - where depth is also very very good. Obviously not suggesting Norway is miles ahead of Denmark, but I do believe Norway should be slightly better than Denmark - even if they are not. Not sure what is astonishing with that when you got players like Sagosen and someone like Reinkind wouldn't even play with everyone fit (arguably our 3rd best right back - even if Tønnesen has struggled to get back in shape after his injuries). I get why some might disagree, but even if you did disagree not sure if anyone would say Denmark are miles ahead either.

For whatever reason it doesn't work though. While 2+2=5 for Sweden it is 2+2=3 for Norway. As a team Norway is much less impressive than they are player for player.

 

[Havre]

As for the Spanish league - I said it was solid - not the best in the world or anything. And I still very much stand by that. Certainly more than solid enough for young players to play at a high enough level to develop - which is a bit of a problem in for example Norway. The difference between the top and bottom is just so big (even if I think it is less of an issue now than it used to be). So young good players are only playing so many good/tough games.

I think for Elverum it is fine. The best players in the biggest leagues probably play too much anyway - for it to be optimal for their development. But if you play for the 5th best club in Norway then you are not in the right place to develop properly.

I know the Danish league is at another level, but when I somewhat followed the Swedish they had some of the same issues as in Norway in my opinion. Not sure how it is now - so I think Spain is in a relatively good position. And one could argue that the German league has become so popular for foreign players it might even hurt the development of German players.

 

[QuietContrarian]

I think Norways six best players, on paper, both in attack and defence is quite spectacular (especially now when Barthold has so seamlessly replaced Jøndal). Especially in attack (which is what I mentioned) - where depth is also very very good. Obviously not suggesting Norway is miles ahead of Denmark, but I do believe Norway should be slightly better than Denmark - even if they are not. Not sure what is astonishing with that when you got players like Sagosen and someone like Reinkind wouldn't even play with everyone fit (arguably our 3rd best right back - even if Tønnesen has struggled to get back in shape after his injuries). I get why some might disagree, but even if you did disagree not sure if anyone would say Denmark are miles ahead either.

For whatever reason it doesn't work though. While 2+2=5 for Sweden it is 2+2=3 for Norway. As a team Norway is much less impressive than they are player for player.

Denmark absolutely demolishes Norway best on best almost everytime.

I think Sagosen is a great player, even if I do feel he needs to show it more.

But I think Hansen is still better in attack, and think players like Lauge(when he is fit), Saugstrup and Gidsel are better than anything that Norway can equal.

Then you have Jakob Holm and Emil Jakobsen aswell.

In any case results, and head to head games also tell this.

Not saying Denmark are miles ahead in Attack (But, imo, they are ahead) However, as a team and on merits alone, they surely are.

In defense (on paper at least) sure Norway have a case for being better.

 

[Havre]

I haven't argued against that at all. I find it very strange that Norway are not better - and maybe I'm wrong - but they should be better.

 

[Islay1989]

Sagosen is a guy who can be absolutely brilliant, but he needs support, much like a young Hansen did. Hansen is a better player, especially today. Without trying to offend anyone, I'd rate Denmark quite higher than Norway both in terms of talent and actual team cohesion. I think Norway has a clown for a coach who often does them a disservice with his antics, much like Cervar did for Croatia for years. Others had Wilbek, Onesta and Ribera/Rivera while we had Cervar, Goluza, Babic and now Horvat. Like letting a kid without a license drive a Ferrari. Berge like the aforementioned Croats seems to live and die by how his best players play, now this might sound like captain obvious material, but it really isn't. Norway, much like Croatia can't survive Sagosen playing even at 80% because the whole gameplan in offense is centered around him. They can't overcome adversities or refs who let the other team play a more aggressive D that neuters him because the coaching is poor and the supporting cast just waits on him to pull a rabbit out of his ass.

The same thing for Croatia, the offense is an afterthought and everyone preaches D because we have Dule, Cindric and Karacic, like we had Balic, Lackovic and Metlicic in the past. There is no rhyme or reason to how they play in attack, just going by on pure talent alone. Spain for example really doesn't have anyone that stands out talent-wise now when they didn't have Alex but they beat you by playing to their forte, they stack the middle, let you take shots from wings a line, have great goalies, run hard and just beat you to a pulp. When the refs let them play right on the edge of 2min suspension they can beat anyone 8 times out of 10 because very single player knows what to do in every situation. France can win if Karabatic plays like shit, Spain can win with Alex going 2 for 10, Sweden can win without having Jim Gottfridssonon the score sheet. Norway, Croatia and Denmark can't overcome that. Not because their depth is worse, it really isn't, but rather because their coaches have a plan A, and if that doesn't go well you're in for a shit-kicking.

The same thing was true of France in the past, their field players in the attack were even overrated more often than not because their D and especially Omeyer made them look invincible. They knew what they can give you on D, played to Omeyer's (he absolutely loved close shost and long range shots because his closing speed and reaction time were right there with Mirko Basic's and Lavrov's) strengths and then killed you in transition. When you set your D and didn't let them run riot they often fell into black holes offensively, but they didn't panic or go on playing hero ball, they just ground you into oblivion through Dinart, Gille and then Gigou and Abalo running, plus Karabatic exploiting transition D and coming in at full speed. The only elite players they had when talking about playing against set defenses were Narcisse and Bertrand Gille in the early days and later Sorhaindo.

No one will pick the Spanish lineup over France, Norway, Denmark, Croatia etc, but they like Sweden just play better than you'd think looking at the name on the team sheet.

 

[Havre]

The odd thing is that Sagosen today has more support than he has ever had for Norway. But it is just a sad fact Sagosen is not consistently as good now as he was about 2-3 years ago. If he had played like 2-3 years ago Norway would have won this tournament. We would never have lost those two games against Russia and Sweden with a peak Sagosen. You need your stars to perform. Much like Hansen has when Denmark has won (not that they are a one man team or anything) and Gottfridsson this this year. If Gottfridsson had played 5% “worse” Sweden never wins.

But as said before few players have 15 years at the top without any dips in performances. So hopefully Sagosen bounces back. And with Rød and Johannessen fit again Norway will have good opportunities for quite a few years. We have more or less gone through a change already after having relied heavily on players like Jøndal and Myrhol. They have been replaced surprisingly quick. I will never again experience a Norwegian team like we will have over the next years. If they don’t win anything Norway will never win. 5-10 years from now Norway (for the men) will again be a team that will struggle to even get to tournaments most likely.

As for the coach. It is a strange one. We reached two finals with worse teams. I don’t mind him at all on how he deals with games tactically, but we clearly struggle mentally. So either someone has to help him with that part or yes - he has to go. Now he might resign anyway because he has clearly been offered the job at Kolstad and he can’t be both in Norway. Hopefully Norway will be attractive enough for a solid new coach. And I believe coaches like players should be Norwegian so I would say obviously Solberg is now the best candidate. If he is willing to leave Sweden.

 

[Eye of Ra]

btw

Qatar wins its 5th straight Asian Handball Championship, despite only 2 of their players being born in Asia (2 Syrians) 7 from Tunisia 2 from Egypt 2 from Syria 2 from Cuba 2 from Bosnia 1 from Nigeria 1 from France All naturalized within the last 5-7 years

 

[Eye of Ra]

Bengt "bengan" Johansson have died. Best handball coach ever. Rest in peace.