Speculation: 2017 Off Season Discussion V - rt calls his shot.

[_Del_]

The Tipping Point

 

[Tad Mikowski]

"Tippett's Tidbits"
"Tipping the Balance"
"They worked for Tips"

you could call that a "Tri-Tipp"

 

[BUX7PHX]

If he didn't supposedly fail, why did he get fired?

I rarely, if ever, failed at my job and I have been fired before. Personality clashes, differences in direction - there are a multitude of reasons. I can assuredly say that one reason why he was not fired was making the decision to keep Crouse up in the NHL vs returning to OHL, which is what the entire conversation has been about.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Tip made chicken salad out of chicken ****

We're going in a different direction now.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I wonder how much longer and into this season Tip will get blamed for anything and everything that doesn't go well?

Until people realize what a mess Chayka created. From that moment on, Johnnyboy will get his fair, well deserved share of the blame. Tough to forget about Tippett after all he's done though. Granted, his options were limited but man...it wasn't pretty and it only got worse. I guess that was it for him as a headcoach in the NHL. Every other team would have fired the guy long ago...

Exactly - the problem is that if Tocchet leads us to 88 points - everyone will point and say, "Toc is great, Tip was the problem." But he won't get any credit for doing the right things with players like Crouse or Chychrun. Chychrun is an example of a player that stayed up, but the same principle could have been applied to Chychrun as people are applying to Crouse. We could have easily told Chychrun to go back to junior to refine your game, since he went from the consensus #2 pick to a draft day faller (thank goodness), and there could have been just as many questions as to whether or not he peaked too early relative to peers.

If we fail in having success with Toc, it will be due to how Tip created the team beforehand and "allowed offense to die on our player's sticks," when it could just be carryover of player skills rather than a system change that results in a lack of opening our offense up.

Regardless, we will see what happens. I honestly think that by the end of the time with Tocchet, whenever that may occur, he will have some success, but we are also going to realize how much more Tippett was able to squeeze out of his players than realized, and even though it may not seem like we had it great, the team actually played above their quality and expectations.

 

[Summer Rose]

Exactly - the problem is that if Tocchet leads us to 88 points - everyone will point and say, "Toc is great, Tip was the problem." But he won't get any credit for doing the right things with players like Crouse or Chychrun. Chychrun is an example of a player that stayed up, but the same principle could have been applied to Chychrun as people are applying to Crouse. We could have easily told Chychrun to go back to junior to refine your game, since he went from the consensus #2 pick to a draft day faller (thank goodness), and there could have been just as many questions as to whether or not he peaked too early relative to peers.

If we fail in having success with Toc, it will be due to how Tip created the team beforehand and "allowed offense to die on our player's sticks," when it could just be carryover of player skills rather than a system change that results in a lack of opening our offense up.

Regardless, we will see what happens. I honestly think that by the end of the time with Tocchet, whenever that may occur, he will have some success, but we are also going to realize how much more Tippett was able to squeeze out of his players than realized, and even though it may not seem like we had it great, the team actually played above their quality and expectations.

I'm honestly braced for a not very good season. I expect us to basically fall flat on our faces out of the gate while players learn a new coach's system and the ones we have left from last year have "the Tippett" coached out of them (this could be blaming lack of success on Tip if you want to accuse me of it). I'm more interested to see how we start doing in January or later and next season.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I'm honestly braced for a not very good season. I expect us to basically fall flat on our faces out of the gate while players learn a new coach's system and the ones we have left from last year have "the Tippett" coached out of them (this could be blaming lack of success on Tip if you want to accuse me of it). I'm more interested to see how we start doing in January or later and next season.

I actually think that we will have a decent season (81-84 points or so), but my fear is that we will see a lot of the 6-4 losses that plagued the team the year that Ribeiro was here. No amount of coaching can help when players have to start "covering" for others on the ice, much like we struggled with Ribeiro taking himself out of defensive play, and forcing us to cover for his laxness.

The other concern is one that was brought up over the rookie tournament, which may not be the best comparison, but I will make it anyway.

Many people noticed that we still struggled with good offense and being skilled enough to bring the puck into the zone. This is with a few players who have some definitive offensive skills relative to the other teams. Now, the coaches for the rookie tournament are the AHL coaches, so Van Ryn, who was with the Coyotes last year as a player development coach, should actually have the insight to say that if the team is changing coaches and offensive philosophies, then we push the kids in that direction as well. If our offense looked a lot like what we have seen over and over, yet we know that there is a concerted effort to change that up, then we shouldn't necessarily see the same issues come up, correct?

It is one weekend of games with a lot of players who may not be in the NHL any time soon, but there are some players that are being counted on to make the club. It is too early to make any definitive report, but if a few weeks into the season, we see the same struggles, maybe there are some deficiencies that we want to blame on coaching that it turns out, we can't because it comes down to everyone's favorite e-word: execution by players.

 

[Kaizen]

I wonder how much longer and into this season Tip will get blamed for anything and everything that doesn't go well?

Into this season? It'll go for years to come. Blamers gonna blame.

 

[Toadie]

Hope, dream, believe.. It has to be a hot start for the Yotes, giving the team all the positive energy I can spare

Hmm, I will need to find some good luck charms too

 

[rt]

Into this season? It'll go for years to come. Blamers gonna blame.

How many "Ignore" lists am I on? I've mentioned several times that I have nothing to blame Tippett for moving forward. I'm as much a Tippett hater as anyone, aren't I? Del is my only rival in that regard, I think. Del, what are your thoughts? Is Tippett going to be responsible for anything that happens this season?

My primary complaints about Tippett are as follows:

1. He got fired at least one year too late
2. Too many people on this forum don't agree with that

Point one isn't all the incendiary and point two is just dumb and doesn't matter at all.

 

[_Del_]

Tipp's only responsibility moving forward is that he wasted several years with his pigheadedness. We did about everything a rebuilding club could do wrong for four yrs.
I've said several times that there was room to spread blame on Duclair, and I suspect we'll see what a "breath of fresh air" brings about. We did anything but put him in a position to succeed, imo. I don't think he irreparably damaged Duclair in two years, but it'd be hard to say his handling helped in anyway. Same goes for the rest of the roster.
I'm not expecting anything better in the standings than last year. Young players, heavy turnover in the room, complete turnover behind the bench, new system, paper thin and didn't fill obvious glaring holes, etc. I do hope that we set up a true development year, playing to our strengths, building confidence, and putting our young players in a position to succeed so that we actually improve the longterm on-ice outlook.

 

[cobra427]

Exactly - the problem is that if Tocchet leads us to 88 points - everyone will point and say, "Toc is great, Tip was the problem." But he won't get any credit for doing the right things with players like Crouse or Chychrun. Chychrun is an example of a player that stayed up, but the same principle could have been applied to Chychrun as people are applying to Crouse. We could have easily told Chychrun to go back to junior to refine your game, since he went from the consensus #2 pick to a draft day faller (thank goodness), and there could have been just as many questions as to whether or not he peaked too early relative to peers.

If we fail in having success with Toc, it will be due to how Tip created the team beforehand and "allowed offense to die on our player's sticks," when it could just be carryover of player skills rather than a system change that results in a lack of opening our offense up.

Regardless, we will see what happens. I honestly think that by the end of the time with Tocchet, whenever that may occur, he will have some success, but we are also going to realize how much more Tippett was able to squeeze out of his players than realized, and even though it may not seem like we had it great, the team actually played above their quality and expectations.

Agreed. I hope the team does well this year and Toch is a success. I just don't think he has a magic wand or the team way under achieved under Tip or that Tip was stupid. Besides, the haters need to get over Tip sooner or later. The problem is, all the whipping boys are gone now: no Moss/Chip/Tip/Playfair/Smith. Until a new whipping boy is found, Tip will linger.....But, once the season starts, Raanta/Gogo are likely candidates if they don't play well

 

[cobra427]

Tipp's only responsibility moving forward is that he wasted several years with his pigheadedness. We did about everything a rebuilding club could do wrong for four yrs.
I've said several times that there was room to spread blame on Duclair, and I suspect we'll see what a "breath of fresh air" brings about. We did anything but put him in a position to succeed, imo. I don't think he irreparably damaged Duclair in two years, but it'd be hard to say his handling helped in anyway. Same goes for the rest of the roster.
I'm not expecting anything better in the standings than last year. Young players, heavy turnover in the room, complete turnover behind the bench, new system, paper thin and didn't fill obvious glaring holes, etc. I do hope that we set up a true development year, playing to our strengths, building confidence, and putting our young players in a position to succeed so that we actually improve the longterm on-ice outlook.

So Duclair wasn't put in a position to succeed by Tip? Do you mean in his first year or second year?

 

[rt]

Short story:
Neither _Del_ nor rt are going to blame Dave Tippett for anything that happens in the 2017-2018 season or beyond.

Humble request:
Knock it off with this ridiculous narrative that anyone has any designs on blaming Tippett for anything that happens this season.

 

[Summer Rose]

Short story:
Neither _Del_ nor rt are going to blame Dave Tippett for anything that happens in the 2017-2018 season or beyond.

Humble request:
Knock it off with this ridiculous narrative that anyone has any designs on blaming Tippett for anything that happens this season.

Everything for the next 5 years is clearly related to Dave Tippett in some way.

 

[Heldig]

Agree with rt. Tippett HAD to go. It is on Chayka (and Tocchet) now to see if they can build a good team.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

How many "Ignore" lists am I on? I've mentioned several times that I have nothing to blame Tippett for moving forward. I'm as much a Tippett hater as anyone, aren't I? Del is my only rival in that regard, I think. Del, what are your thoughts? Is Tippett going to be responsible for anything that happens this season?

My primary complaints about Tippett are as follows:

1. He got fired at least one year too late
2. Too many people on this forum don't agree with that

Point one isn't all the incendiary and point two is just dumb and doesn't matter at all.

I think he earned another season after the team did pretty well after finishing 2nd last the year prior. IMO the extension was the big mistake. Without it we could've ditched him midseason with ease during that long losing streak. But at this point it doesn't matter, the teams going in a new direction and I'm excited for the season to start. Hopefully everything will work out.

 

[_Del_]

Short story:
Neither _Del_ nor rt are going to blame Dave Tippett for anything that happens in the 2017-2018 season or beyond.

Humble request:
Knock it off with this ridiculous narrative that anyone has any designs on blaming Tippett for anything that happens this season.

You're being accused of ignorance and obstinance by someone who doesn't believe or refuses to admit Tippett was fired. I mean, you can only take the complaint so seriously.

 

[RABBIT]

 

[Jakey53]

Exactly. It is what it is. Time to move on and keep on supporting this team.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Tipp's only responsibility moving forward is that he wasted several years with his pigheadedness. We did about everything a rebuilding club could do wrong for four yrs.

We decided to sign Ribeiro when we should have been rebuilding? Cause that was four years ago and I doubt anyone would put us in the "rebuild" phase then.

That's why it is very difficult to get a pulse on this - people create their own timelines and ideas that aren't true. Whether it is when the rebuild started (end of 14-15 season), or even things like why Tippett didn't have an offseason of trades like this one to acquire Hjalmarsson and Stepan (news flash - we had conversations with NY about Stepan for at least a year plus some time, according to Chayka. Possibly back to the Maloney time even).

It seems like people are putting the incorrect message in their heads about Tocchet being some sort of savior who is doing everything right and Tippett purposefully did everything wrong. I don't believe that everything Tip did was perfect, but lets not pretend that he made it his point to reduce our team to **** because he felt like it. Tip advocated for talent coming in and that may have been the source of the rift between Maloney and Tip. Maloney won trades, but maybe did not go after the higher profile deals that came available.

That's where I am saying that right now and in the months/years to come, Tocchet will be the golden child simply because his name isn't Tippett. If Tocchet has a bad year, he will get a pass because he is getting the Tip coached out of the players. If he has a good year, it will have nothing to do with the fact that we brought in the Stepan, Hjalmarsson, and Raantas of the world to help stabilize our youth and provide some of that winning/championship edge that we have been missing. Even though those are the exact same types of players that Tippett had pushed for adding.

It also doesn't help to see smarmy comments like, "Crouse was challenged cause he was on a Dave Tippett roster." Forest for the trees. He was challenged because he was a 20 year old who had to answer to the call of playing against true veteran players who have put in years of time and can help show the ropes that otherwise may not have been learned in juniors. Sure, he could have learned a little more offensively, but thats like driving NASCAR on the 101. You learn that you are in a bigger, stronger, faster car, but no one challenges you in the same way as on an oval and it becomes less of a learning opportunity in the lower league.

You can be happy or sad on who the coach is or was. But when people make statements that lean towards the creation of false narratives (i.e. coaching the offense out of players and only resorting to dump.and chase on offense), that's where it becomes difficult to stomach. We dumped and chased often, but I doubt that the white board in the locker room had these three steps as our offensive philosophy:
1. Dump
2. And
3. Chase

We have some ideas of the truth about Tippett and the truth about Tocchet, but until we see both sides, we are.creating potentially false narratives about both that need to end.

We all understand that Tip is gone and Tocchet is in. We are also not making statements that attribute Tocchet to cleaning up a mess when the mess may not have been as big as it is being made by some, and some parts of the mess may not entirely be in Tippett's control (Maloney's wants vs Tippett's, etc.)

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Short story:
Neither _Del_ nor rt are going to blame Dave Tippett for anything that happens in the 2017-2018 season or beyond.

Humble request:
Knock it off with this ridiculous narrative that anyone has any designs on blaming Tippett for anything that happens this season.

Really, after all the hundreds of angry, biting posts about how Dave Tippett ruined the Coyotes for ever and ever and ever? After vilifying those who supported Tippett on page after page?

Your humble supplication will find no sympathy from me.

 

[_Del_]

We decided to sign Ribeiro when we should have been rebuilding? Cause that was four years ago and I doubt anyone would put us in the "rebuild" phase then.

We just traded a 7ov and a young NHL RHD for Stepan. Are we rebuilding?

They didn't try to rebuild for far too long. They eventually incompetanked. They should have dumped Tippett after 2014 when it was obvious he wasn't getting a response from the room. If the best response you have is that we signed Ribiero therefore we shouldn't have been rebuilding, I'm notmsure what to tell you.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Tocchet is starting day one of camp with defense. Do y'all know why? Because defense is the very foundation of the game. When a coach has his first practice with children, he does the same thing, starting with an explanation of the "house" and the emphasis on protecting the house. Tocchet then intends to address the breakout, which is the next step in coaching at all levels.

We all hope to see a difference (improvement) and a system that lends itself to the players on the ice - same as defensive structure and breakouts need to work with given player personnel. That is the task of coaching, it is up to the players to - wait for it - everyone's favorite word - EXECUTE.

Probably best / wise to give this a rest, look to the future and the hope of success.

Thank you

 

[Bonsai Tree]

We just traded a 7ov and a young NHL RHD for Stepan. Are we rebuilding?

They didn't try to rebuild for far too long. They eventually incompetanked. They should have dumped Tippett after 2014 when it was obvious he wasn't getting a response from the room. If the best response you have is that we signed Ribiero therefore we shouldn't have been rebuilding, I'm notmsure what to tell you.

Yes, Virginia, there is a rebuild. Every rebuild needs a few sound veterans to lead the young players and we needed a vet with a new attitude, good work habits and the cred which comes with big time production. Your post reminds me of people who continue to hold grudges against the dead. More griping about Tippett? Ridiculous.