Speculation: 2017 Off Season Discussion V - rt calls his shot.

[rt]

I just want to be more like Rabbit. And Alberta Yote. And RR. Always funny, never dragged into the muck. A+ posters.

 

[Hinterland]

Yes, Virginia, there is a rebuild. Every rebuild needs a few sound veterans to lead the young players and we needed a vet with a new attitude, good work habits and the cred which comes with big time production. Your post reminds me of people who continue to hold grudges against the dead. More griping about Tippett? Ridiculous.

Rebuilding teams don't throw away a 7th overall, not even in what was believed to be a weak draft. You want vets? Fine. Resign Doan, sign Iginla, Jagr...any FA you want. That's what rebuilding teams do. Sign FA's and trade those with value at the deadline. Rebuilding teams never throw away assets who are likely to turn into decent NHLers for players in or past their prime. NEVER. Everything else is bs, not a rebuild.

 

[RABBIT]

I just want to be more like Rabbit. And Alberta Yote. And RR. Always funny, never dragged into the muck. A+ posters.

You are the standard here rt. You are the chosen one. We appreciate you

 

[BUX7PHX]

We just traded a 7ov and a young NHL RHD for Stepan. Are we rebuilding?

They didn't try to rebuild for far too long. They eventually incompetanked. They should have dumped Tippett after 2014 when it was obvious he wasn't getting a response from the room. If the best response you have is that we signed Ribiero therefore we shouldn't have been rebuilding, I'm notmsure what to tell you.

Your argument was that we wasted a ton of time because of Tippett's pigheadedness. So, he should have brought Domi up from day 1, even though Domi himself said how much it helped him? He should have addressed the team to try and find better ways to get talent in, even though he stated that he always wanted to get more talent, yet sometimes we were not in that position b/c of Maloney and/or spending beyond our budget concerns? That's not pigheadedness, that is a direct evaluation of what is best for player and team, and while we didn't get massive shake-ups to roster, that isn't without them trying to do so.

Unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that Tippett decided to nix trades on his own accord that would improve the team, your entire rhetoric is made up. If you can prove that Domi or many other players could have been much better as a result of DT's bumblings, then show me. Show me how Rundblad wound up panning out. Show me the number of players that have performed much better away from Tippett than with. I will grant you Turris, but we already knew what happened, how talented he was and is, and that is an extreme situation. Name me someone else. You say that you want people to be held responsible on ice, so wouldn't putting a player like Turris on the first line without proving that he could handle it be in exact contrast to holding him responsible? Until you can name reasonable conclusions about how much he has held back players, your entire rhetoric is made up.

We traded the 7th overall (in a weak draft - context, because if this were a stronger draft, the deal may look very different) and a young RHD. This was in the effort of improving our team, so if we want to look at it that way, every year is a rebuild, some years just take more effort than others. It was only announced in 14-15 season that we were approaching a full-on rebuild of getting rid of older players to supplement with young talent. We have seen how rebuilds have taken a few seasons up to 8-10 years. Please tell me what Tippett did to hurt our rebuild so profoundly that we are now going to pay for it for the next decade. In just the last two years, we started to immensely pick up our talent level, to where we could actually take a player straight out of juniors or college and expect them to compete against pros. We didn't have that with Gormley, didn't have that with Visentin. Murphy is decent, but we got someone better in his place. How many NHL games have Lessio, Ruopp, or Henrik Samuelsson played? Was it because they were great players who got screwed over by DT as a coach, or because they weren't good enough? That is a lot of the reason for our poor play in two years time, b/c we could not stabilize our roster and hit home runs with every FA pickup like what happened in the years past. You can't point to Tippett screwing up players when they are weaker players anyhow and probably have ceiling that won't be too far off from where they were in junior. If you want to argue that, feel free to try because your rhetoric is made up.

Look, I am fine with going into the season with who we have. Getting rid of Tippett allowed us to dump Playfair, which was the only coach I truly did not think was a good hire. That showed with our play and the lack of talent and experience on D from the 2014 season on. But you are spinning things into a way where our former coach had nothing positive to bring to the table at all, and that is incorrect. Read some articles to hear how Tocchet thinks of coaching and how Tippett thinks of coaching. Tocchet talks about being responsible and accountability. Wasn't Tip's accountability to also grade players through 10 game patches and go from there?

But if we were to hear it from your mouth, Tip never held anyone accountable, regardless. It would be the equivalent of grading for 10 games, looking at the results, and then throwing that info away. That's where the issue lies. You, primarily, create statements that fit a narrative that is without merit. Can you put some pieces of information together and speculate as to what the possible issues were? Sure. You can say Tippett neutered offense out of the team, but we have seen the team score goals in a similar system, one where we spent less time in the defensive end and forced shots from poor areas.

Right now, your best response is that Tippett created all of the problems, without accounting for some lack of talent, lack of experience, or other pieces that have affected his ability to do his job perfectly. Even when doing the right thing by keeping Crouse and Chychrun up, he still gets blame for not sending Crouse back. Face it - there is nothing that this guy can do right, even if the same reasons that you hate him were the same reasons that brought success in 2009-12. That's where the problem lies. Making up information to fulfill your thoughts. There is a saying, 'It is never as good as it seems, and never as bad as it seems.' Apply that here - as much as you think that Tippett created a large issue, he may have actually been part of what helped us succeed and our overall talent level in regards to our system. For all we know, we were actually closer to Colorado in terms of talent, intangibles, etc.

If you don't want people talking about the past, don't bring it up. This entire thing started as a result of talking about how Crouse should have been sent to junior. All based on Crouse only and then a person chimes in with "Hey, it was a challenge for Crouse b/c he was on a Tippett coached team." Starting on page 7, read how many times Tippett's name came up when talking about Crouse. Zero. Until the smarmy comment about Tippett which didn't have much place anyhow. Tippett and Chayka were actually doing the right thing by keeping him up, based on the circumstances in the situation and what he had a chance to learn in juniors vs the NHL. But any time something looks or smells wrong, blame Tip.

 

[GiveAFlyingPuck]

All the people who want a couple of old favorite players around (not many on the board here) will need to have a Coach Norman Dale moment from Hoosiers. (Yeah it's basketball but the sentiment rings true). In a few weeks it will be

"I would hope you support who we are, not who we are not...

This is your team."

I wasn't talking about you. It's that other guy.

 

[RemoAZ]

I'm always anxious for the season to start but this season in particular so we can put all the old arguments and *****ing/crying behind us. Of course I could be wrong but I believe once we get more of the young talent out there playing a faster style with consistent offensive pressure and breakouts from the defensive end, there will be way more fun and interesting stuff to talk about than the past ****. I try not to keep track of who supported the old regime or who said **** that really pissed me off or even posters I like/agree with like some of you do. Just looking forward to the upcoming season and a new start. I guess that's maturity kicking in! Took long enough...

 

[Mosby]

All the people who want a couple of old favorite players around (not many on the board here) will need to have a Coach Norman Dale moment from Hoosiers. (Yeah it's basketball but the sentiment rings true). In a few weeks it will be

"I would hope you support who we are, not who we are not...

This is your team."

I wasn't talking about you. It's that other guy.

Barroway offered a similar comment:

"With that said, it's time to move forward," Barroway said. "We're trying to build a winning team, not a situation where we put out some players that some of the fans might like and we're not going to be competitive anyways so who cares."

 

[DesertDawg]

I still see no Josh Anderson signing! The only reason I can come up with why is that he doesn't want to be part of the package to the Avs for Duchene. The only leverage he can do.

 

[Grimes]

I still see no Josh Anderson signing! The only reason I can come up with why is that he doesn't want to be part of the package to the Avs for Duchene. The only leverage he can do.

That's interesting. What would get it done?

 

[DesertDawg]

That's interesting. What would get it done?

You are asking the wrong person. I want the Coyotes to rip off the BJs, to take advantage of the situation, to improve the Coyote's everyday roster. I don't believe in fair trades. Hopefully Columbus thinks that McGinn for Anderson is a sideways trade for a signed player.

 

[Hinterland]

You are asking the wrong person. I want the Coyotes to rip off the BJs, to take advantage of the situation, to improve the Coyote's everyday roster. I don't believe in fair trades. Hopefully Columbus thinks that McGinn for Anderson is a sideways trade for a signed player.

No team would take McGinn for free. Arizona will have to pay to dump him somewhere. I'd bet my house if I had one. Waste of money, cap and roster spot (contract).

 

[Heldig]

Love Andersons game. Realistically he is a third liner so I would not want to give up much for him. The ask would be someone like Martinook which is a sideways move at best for the Coyotes.

 

[rt]

Love Andersons game. Realistically he is a third liner so I would not want to give up much for him. The ask would be someone like Martinook which is a sideways move at best for the Coyotes.

I would wager that Anderson can score goals in this league and contribute to an NHL power play. I don't think the same can be said for Martinook. His scoring prowess is underrated but I don't think it's on Amderson's level and Nook certainly won't play on a PP in the NHL. I think he can develop into a good to excellent NHL PKer, however. He's versatile enough to play all three positions up front including center, which should add significantly to his value.

To me, while the value might be close to sideways, the fit is potentially beneficial to both teams. Columbus could use a defensively responsible bottom six center. Arizona could use another RHS with PP potential. It's tough to be too attached to Martinook when you've already got Cousins and Richardson and Crouse and Rieder. Not to mention McGinn. Nook is a solid player and a very useful part of this team but he's not filling a hole, and Anderson would.

Columbus just paid a pretty penny to convince Las Vegas to take Karlsson. However, that also included a cap dump and may have been just as much about protecting their goalie as it was about protecting Anderson. And anyway, Martinook is essentially the player you'd get if you combined Anderson with Karlsson. He's basically the half way point between those players. Columbus didn't give up nothing when they lost Karlssson. He was a piece they valued. I think they'd value Martinook too.

To me, this trade makes all the sense in the world on paper. Of course that's only if Columbus wants to do a one for one. More likely is they want to combine Anderson with draft picks and prospects for a much more effective player than Martinook. They probably want something approaching a premier level player and Anderson could be a part of the package for a guy like that.

 

[Hinterland]

Love Andersons game. Realistically he is a third liner so I would not want to give up much for him. The ask would be someone like Martinook which is a sideways move at best for the Coyotes.

I'd offer Duclair. No way Torts is gonna like him. Lazy floaters tend to be in his doghouse pretty quickly. Can't lose that trade.

PS: I really don't know why everybody wants to trade Martinook. About the last guy I'd trade.

 

[rt]

Nobody wants to. I'd certainly keep Duclair over Martinook though.

 

[Ebb]

I'd offer Duclair. No way Torts is gonna like him. Lazy floaters tend to be in his doghouse pretty quickly. Can't lose that trade.

PS: I really don't know why everybody wants to trade Martinook. About the last guy I'd trade.

I'm fine with moving Duclair (although I would still like to see if he can improve in a different system HERE)

Martinook is a class/character guy, but he is also somewhat expendable. I guess the question would be (if we're looking at this from a defensive forward angle)...would you rather lose Martinook, Rieder, or Richardson in a move for Anderson (more pieces may be in play--the value of which would be determined by which of the three would be moved)? I'm not sure there would be interest in Richardson (due to the injury), but if it came down to Rieder vs. Martinook, I'd hang on to Rieder since he can pitch in offensively if needed.

 

[rt]

Martinook is 6mo older than Rieder. I always forget that because Rieder has been around longer.

 

[Hinterland]

Nobody wants to. I'd certainly keep Duclair over Martinook though.

I wouldn't. Duclair had so many chances and he didn't even try to compete. Tippett probably didn't help much but if a player doesn't care then that's not his mistake.

Coyotes have tons of talented lefty forwards. No point in waiting until he gives a ....Coyotes were trying hard to trade him but nobody was interested. His value has come down rapidly and for very good reasons. So if he gets us Anderson now then that's fine with me. Anderson would fill a lot of needs and for Duclair, Columbus is the worst possible place. Torts is gonna demote him in no time. Again. Can't lose that trade.

You don't trade players like Martinook because the return you'd get just isn't worth it. There's no market. Until that changes, he's about the last guy I'd trade.

 

[HerrDonut]

I wouldn't. Duclair had so many chances and he didn't even try to compete. Tippett probably didn't help much but if a player doesn't care then that's not his mistake.

In 2015, Chelsea FC won the Premier League.
There was a shift in the locker room sometime in the following months, and the players turned on the coach. I'm not sure how low they fell in the standings in 2015-2016, but the coach was fired while they were in 16th out of 20 teams. Before the end of the season, they climbed back up to 10th - which still stood as the then-record for lowest finish by the defending Prem champs. That Chelsea team went on to win the league again in 2017.

Players can quit on the coach. Those players can win championships.

Keep Duclair.

 

[rt]

Duclair is going to score 20 goals this season (+/- 2)

 

[Hinterland]

Duclair is going to score 20 goals this season (+/- 2)

Possibly. He'll probably have better linemates than last season in Tucson.

 

[RemoAZ]

Domi Stepan Duclair
Perlini Dvo Fischer
Crouse Strome Merkley
Martinook Richardson Reider
Cousins McGinn

Too much to hope for?

 

[rt]

Your third line looks like a fantastic first line in Tucson.

 

[rt]

Troll the fans hard:

Keller, Strome, Crouse, and Fischer in Tucson.

Domi-Stepan-Duclair
Perlini-Dvorak-Rieder
Nook-Richardson-McGinn
Rinaldo-Cousins-Latta

 

[SniperHF]

I forgot about Rinaldo