OT: 2017 Blue Bombers Thread Part I

[Potrzebie]

Nichols reminds me a bit of Tommy Burgess but faster. Not spectacular at anything but adequate at pretty much everything.

 

[Flair Hay]

upgrade Carmichael and you're looking at one hell of a team. a team that can really do damage in the playoffs.
pass rush is good enough but not amazing.
otherwise...this is a very, very good team.

interesting discussion now.
where would you put Harris and Nichols position-wise in the team's history?

Wpg's top quarterbacks would arguably be Dunnigan, Jacobs, Clemmons, Ploen (?)...never comfortable with K Jones being in the top. eyeball/memory-wise, I'd definitely put Nichols ahead of Jones. Jones had an insane receiver corps and i remember LOTS of flutterballs.

Harris is tough, man. this rushing/receiving combo really makes him stand out and be part of an elite level of runningback.

Yeah man Carmichael is good at not getting burned but he has zero skills on contested catches. If he doesn't figure it out by NFL cuts he will be joining Bruce Johnson.

My only complaint on offense was we didn't run it enough considering we must have been pushing 10 yards a touch for Harris lol. Remnants of the Fred Reid 260 yard game where Kelley kept calling the a me play over and over

 

[DowntownBooster]

upgrade Carmichael and you're looking at one hell of a team. a team that can really do damage in the playoffs.
pass rush is good enough but not amazing.
otherwise...this is a very, very good team.

interesting discussion now.
where would you put Harris and Nichols position-wise in the team's history?

Wpg's top quarterbacks would arguably be Dunnigan, Jacobs, Clemmons, Ploen (?)...never comfortable with K Jones being in the top. eyeball/memory-wise, I'd definitely put Nichols ahead of Jones. Jones had an insane receiver corps and i remember LOTS of flutterballs.

Harris is tough, man. this rushing/receiving combo really makes him stand out and be part of an elite level of runningback.

I think you'd also have to include Dieter Brock in that group. He may not have won a Grey Cup with the Bombers but it was mostly due to the Eskimos having such a powerhouse team at the time much the same way as when Dale Hawerchuk played for the Jets when the Oilers were a juggernaut. Dieter provided us with many great memories while playing quarterback for Winnipeg.

 

[nobody important]

It seems ridiculous, but the commentators were saying that the defender is obliged by rule to get out of the way! You can't simply stand your ground. WTF?

It's more than ridiculous. The only way Heath could have avoided that collision was by diving to the turf and taking himself out of the play. If our new commish is really listening to the fans, he should be hearing a hue and cry about the dreadful officiating in the league and doing something about it.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Didn't see tonight's game, but heard the Bombers defence was still a tirefire of sorts. Just that Eskimo's defence was just as bad, AND injured, AND Harris had one helluva game.

6-2 still sounds mighty nice though.

This isn't true at all. Defence was on point against arguably the league's best offence other than 2 drives and one play. Kept Edmonton to lowest first half point total of the season for them. This was a great performance by the D.

upgrade Carmichael and you're looking at one hell of a team. a team that can really do damage in the playoffs.
pass rush is good enough but not amazing.
otherwise...this is a very, very good team.

interesting discussion now.
where would you put Harris and Nichols position-wise in the team's history?

Wpg's top quarterbacks would arguably be Dunnigan, Jacobs, Clemmons, Ploen (?)...never comfortable with K Jones being in the top. eyeball/memory-wise, I'd definitely put Nichols ahead of Jones. Jones had an insane receiver corps and i remember LOTS of flutterballs.

Harris is tough, man. this rushing/receiving combo really makes him stand out and be part of an elite level of runningback.

Hahahahahaha. Nichols has been great, really solidified himself as a starter and has shown me up. His decision making has gotten better, and he seems to be well suited to LaPo's short pass offense. But he is nowhere near in Jones' level yet. Until he can prove it on the full season he still hasn't reached Glenn's level yet. Jones won an MOP, Glenn was an East Finalist, both had 5K+ yards seasons, lofty TD totals. Nichols will certainly put himself up there with Glenn closing in on Jones if he keeps up what he has been doing, but it's a long season still.

Yeah man Carmichael is good at not getting burned but he has zero skills on contested catches. If he doesn't figure it out by NFL cuts he will be joining Bruce Johnson.

My only complaint on offense was we didn't run it enough considering we must have been pushing 10 yards a touch for Harris lol. Remnants of the Fred Reid 260 yard game where Kelley kept calling the a me play over and over

I was super hard on Carmichael to start the year. Since his move to corner he has been getting better but did struggle a bit last night. The Bombers staff must really love him as they have not even tried to find alternatives so I would strap in and be ready for him to be here all year.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

^I dunno, man (re: Nichols/Khari). Khari was good, but he never had a stretch as effective as Nichols in these last 18-20 games. Even at his best, Khari was a bit of a turnover machine. And as HannuJ mentioned, he had an insanely good receiving corps to work with.

 

[GNP]

Nichols is Most Like Ken Ploen !!!

upgrade Carmichael and you're looking at one hell of a team. a team that can really do damage in the playoffs.
pass rush is good enough but not amazing.
otherwise...this is a very, very good team.

interesting discussion now.
where would you put Harris and Nichols position-wise in the team's history?

Wpg's top quarterbacks would arguably be Dunnigan, Jacobs, Clemmons, Ploen (?)...never comfortable with K Jones being in the top. eyeball/memory-wise, I'd definitely put Nichols ahead of Jones. Jones had an insane receiver corps and i remember LOTS of flutterballs.

Harris is tough, man. this rushing/receiving combo really makes him stand out and be part of an elite level of runningback.

I'd say Nichols is very much like Ken Ploen- he's not flashy, not the greatest thrower of the deep ball, ( but good enough) but very proficient in "all the areas." Just like Ploen, he's a thinking quarterback, throws low interceptions, and knows when to take off and run. I once caught a pass from Ken Ploen,(as a kid) as he was friends with my neighbor, and he and the team would go there to party together.( Jerry James, Leo Lewis, and all the guys would attend)

I'd go on to say that this Bomber team has the 1960's feel to it, under Bud Grant-( 4 Grey Cups) you just never know what their going to do, but they always found a way to win.

This team could surprise, but I do think they need a tough middle linebacker, and a couple of talented tall corner backs. A couple of NFL late cuts would be "great."

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I'd say Nichols is very much like Ken Ploen- he's not flashy, not the greatest thrower of the deep ball, ( but good enough) but very proficient in "all the areas." Just like Ploen, he's a thinking quarterback, throws low interceptions, and knows when to take off and run. I once caught a pass from Ken Ploen,(as a kid) as he was friends with my neighbor, and he and the team would go there to party together.( Jerry James, Leo Lewis, and all the guys would attend)

I'd go on to say that this Bomber team has the 1960's feel to it, under Bud Grant-( 4 Grey Cups) you just never know what their going to do, but they always found a way to win.

This team could surprise, but I do think they need a tough middle linebacker, and a couple of talented tall corner backs. A couple of NFL late cuts would be "great."

You keep saying that it doesn't make much sense. Chris Randle is one of the CFL's elite CB's. So we don't need one there. Carmichael could stand be replaced at the other corner, but "tall" cornerbacks aren't a thing in the CFL. There's very few tall cornerbacks.

Also, this is brought up every year. Airlifting players in from NFL never helps that season unless the player is an ex-CFL player. Players are never successful while learning a new game right away, without a TC or time to learn the intricacies of the CFL. NFL cuts is a chance to add depth to your organization for future years, not for a chance to bulk up roster for a playoff push.

 

[bustamente]

Wally really screwed the pooch with Harris, he is a great runner and a great receiver and his passport is the icing on the cake, player of the week no others need apply.

 

[GNP]

You keep saying that it doesn't make much sense. Chris Randle is one of the CFL's elite CB's. So we don't need one there. Carmichael could stand be replaced at the other corner, but "tall" cornerbacks aren't a thing in the CFL. There's very few tall cornerbacks.

Also, this is brought up every year. Airlifting players in from NFL never helps that season unless the player is an ex-CFL player. Players are never successful while learning a new game right away, without a TC or time to learn the intricacies of the CFL. NFL cuts is a chance to add depth to your organization for future years, not for a chance to bulk up roster for a playoff push.

Well I disagree with you Holden, although Chris Randle may be just as good as you say - haven't watched him to closely, and missed a couple Bomber games. The other corner can go, as well as the middle linebacker.( especially him)

If you watched the game against Montreal, which they should have lost, the Als ran right thru the Bombers defence(4-th qtr) with very little resistance, and there is "no dominance in the middle." I like the style and size of Seattle's corners- big tall and fast. These are the kind of late NFL cuts I'm referring to, and their out there.

As far as adjusting to the CFL game from the NFL- no problem, as you don't need an IQ of 140 to run tackle, and do basic things. An IQ of around 90 will suffice. These NFL guys all play 4 down football, and adjusting to 3 down football, is no big deal, as most of the CFL guys are American college players, or late NFL cuts anyways. I think the Bombers have a couple holes to fill- "especially at middle linebacker" - the Als ran right thru them in the 4-th quarter, and this has to be addressed.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree Holden, but I'll defer to you on Chris Randle, as you've seen more games than I have. I think tho- the future prototype for Cornerbacks- is the Seattle types- big, tall, and fast, that can tackle. Hard to find guys like that, but their out there.

 

[Round John]

Watching Rams camp with Andy Mulumba. Mulumba is battling to make the Rams, looks like his ticket will be as a special teamer. He has to make the 52 man roster, as he has used up his practice roster eligibility. I believe he is still on the Bombers list.

The possibility of adding Mulumba, getting some of the injured guys back on defense will give an extra boost heading into September, and that's when the games really start to mean more.

Oh and top 5 QB's...
5 - Dunigan
4 - Ploen
3 - Brock
2 - Jacobs
1 - Clements

 

[blueandgoldguy]

^I dunno, man (re: Nichols/Khari). Khari was good, but he never had a stretch as effective as Nichols in these last 18-20 games. Even at his best, Khari was a bit of a turnover machine. And as HannuJ mentioned, he had an insanely good receiving corps to work with.

Context. The league rules or at least the way the league rules were interpreted in the late 90s/early 2000s were more favorable to defenses than today. Back then, calls on defensive backs for pass interference were called much more sparingly as the refs "let them play." It really had to be obvious for a call to be made. Nowadays, a defensive back can barely hinder a receiver and it will be called for a penalty. I believe this has caused many defenders to play off the receiver more...perhaps a more timid style for fear of a penalty. I also think Defensive coordinators have leaned more towards zone defense rather than man-to-man coverage as a result of the crackdown on PI.

10-20 years ago, the typical QB might throw 15-25 INts sometimes more, a passer rating of 85 - 90 and pass completion percentage of 55-60%. Nowadays, any QB who throws around 20 INTs is considered a turnover machine, 60% completion percentages are below average (65% is usually the bare minimum for a decent QB while 70% is now considered good but not necessarily otherworldly as it would have been only a few years ago), and passer ratings of 95- 100 can be attained by decent but not great Qbs.

The protection the Qbs receive from the officials in the present versus Khari's era is also a factor in their improved numbers. What was considered borderline and not called in the early 2000s is now called which leads to sustained drives due to penalties for roughing the passer and also probably a degree of timidness on the part of defenses for fear of hitting a QB late or not hitting him in the miniscule sweet spot between the chest and groin (any lower or higher and it might be considered a head shot or a hit below the knees).

Khari was the number 1 - 3 qb in the league from 2000-2003. If he played in the current era there isn't much doubt that his completion percentage, qb rating would increase while his INTs would drop. Nichols is playing well but other than this brief period he has never been considered a top-3 QB in the league like Khari. At this point there is no comparison between the two.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Context. The league rules or at least the way the league rules were interpreted in the late 90s/early 2000s were more favorable to defenses than today. Back then, calls on defensive backs for pass interference were called much more sparingly as the refs "let them play." It really had to be obvious for a call to be made. Nowadays, a defensive back can barely hinder a receiver and it will be called for a penalty. I believe this has caused many defenders to play off the receiver more...perhaps a more timid style for fear of a penalty. I also think Defensive coordinators have leaned more towards zone defense rather than man-to-man coverage as a result of the crackdown on PI.

10-20 years ago, the typical QB might throw 15-25 INts sometimes more, a passer rating of 85 - 90 and pass completion percentage of 55-60%. Nowadays, any QB who throws around 20 INTs is considered a turnover machine, 60% completion percentages are below average (65% is usually the bare minimum for a decent QB while 70% is now considered good but not necessarily otherworldly as it would have been only a few years ago), and passer ratings of 95- 100 can be attained by decent but not great Qbs.

The protection the Qbs receive from the officials in the present versus Khari's era is also a factor in their improved numbers. What was considered borderline and not called in the early 2000s is now called which leads to sustained drives due to penalties for roughing the passer and also probably a degree of timidness on the part of defenses for fear of hitting a QB late or not hitting him in the miniscule sweet spot between the chest and groin (any lower or higher and it might be considered a head shot or a hit below the knees).

Khari was the number 1 - 3 qb in the league from 2000-2003. If he played in the current era there isn't much doubt that his completion percentage, qb rating would increase while his INTs would drop. Nichols is playing well but other than this brief period he has never been considered a top-3 QB in the league like Khari. At this point there is no comparison between the two.

I'm fully aware that the game has evolved and things are stacked heavily in favour of the passing game when compared to 15-20 years ago. Doesn't change my point.

And Khari was not the number 1-3 QB in the league over that time frame you give.

-2000, not a damn chance. Everyone loved him because he could run and wasn't Kerwin Bell, but many tend to forget he was extremely erratic and had some absolute stinker games that season.

-2001 he was named MOP, but Maas, Calvillo and Crandell were more efficient passers than him that season. Make no mistake, the Bomber D carried that team. In hindsight, his MOP was a bit of a joke; part of it was that 2001 was just horribly watered down football, probably the worst quality of play I saw since the American expansion years.

-2002 he was damn good, definitely top 3 by that point.

-2003 he started hot, but regressed badly behind a ****** O-Line. He most certainly wasn't considered a top 3 CFL QB by the end of that season.

If Nichols' Bomber career ended today, Khari would be considered the better all-time QB for sure. But no comparison? This is likely the best stretch of football we've seen from a Bomber QB since Dunigan's 1993 and 1994 seasons (which of course were interrupted at various times by injury).

 

[GNP]

Watching Rams camp with Andy Mulumba. Mulumba is battling to make the Rams, looks like his ticket will be as a special teamer. He has to make the 52 man roster, as he has used up his practice roster eligibility. I believe he is still on the Bombers list.

The possibility of adding Mulumba, getting some of the injured guys back on defense will give an extra boost heading into September, and that's when the games really start to mean more.

Oh and top 5 QB's...
5 - Dunigan
4 - Ploen
3 - Brock
2 - Jacobs
1 - Clements

MY Top 5- all time bomber quarterbacks ( not just passing-"all around"- in order of talent.

1) Tom Clements
2) Matt Dunigan
3) Ken Ploen
4) Dieter Brock -lacked smarts though-"but great arm"
5) tie between Kevin Glenn and Khari Jones

NOTE- Nichols has the "potential" of making my #1 or 2 spot -we'll see !!!

 

[Eyeseeing]

Watching Rams camp with Andy Mulumba. Mulumba is battling to make the Rams, looks like his ticket will be as a special teamer. He has to make the 52 man roster, as he has used up his practice roster eligibility. I believe he is still on the Bombers list.

The possibility of adding Mulumba, getting some of the injured guys back on defense will give an extra boost heading into September, and that's when the games really start to mean more.

Oh and top 5 QB's...
5 - Dunigan
4 - Ploen
3 - Brock
2 - Jacobs
1 - Clements

I absolutely like the top 5 QB's

 

[csk]

MY Top 5- all time bomber quarterbacks ( not just passing-"all around"- in order of talent.

1) Tom Clements
2) Matt Dunigan
3) Ken Ploen
4) Dieter Brock -lacked smarts though-"but great arm"
5) tie between Kevin Glenn and Khari Jones

NOTE- Nichols has the "potential" of making my #1 or 2 spot -we'll see !!!

No Jack Jacobs???

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Watching Rams camp with Andy Mulumba. Mulumba is battling to make the Rams, looks like his ticket will be as a special teamer. He has to make the 52 man roster, as he has used up his practice roster eligibility. I believe he is still on the Bombers list.

The possibility of adding Mulumba, getting some of the injured guys back on defense will give an extra boost heading into September, and that's when the games really start to mean more.

Oh and top 5 QB's...
5 - Dunigan
4 - Ploen
3 - Brock
2 - Jacobs
1 - Clements

I like this list, even though I'm only old enough to remember one (Dunigan).

As for Mulumba, what are the chances he goes straight to the Bombers? He hasn't played three down ball since HS, so almost 10 years. He's probably going to need to shed 15-20 pounds to play LB in the CFL effectively. Having said all that, he would probably still be better than Hurl...

Biggest thing is that he's probably going to wait on any NFL teams that may sign him for special teams help. I think the most likely scenario is that he joins the Bombers for 2018.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I like this list, even though I'm only old enough to remember one (Dunigan).

As for Mulumba, what are the chances he goes straight to the Bombers? He hasn't played three down ball since HS, so almost 10 years. He's probably going to need to shed 15-20 pounds to play LB in the CFL effectively. Having said all that, he would probably still be better than Hurl...

Biggest thing is that he's probably going to wait on any NFL teams that may sign him for special teams help. I think the most likely scenario is that he joins the Bombers for 2018.

It's not that common that guys that spend that long in NFL even bother coming back to CFL. We saw the with former Bombers pick and ex-Bengal and ex-Raider Christopher Bilukidi. He decided to retire rather than come back north.

It does happen sometimes though. He'd be a solid special teamer right away, but not sure he would be straight to starter at MLB. Like you mention he would likely be a better option than Hurl in 2018, but I have doubts he would be able to come in and make an impact on defense right away.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

It's not that common that guys that spend that long in NFL even bother coming back to CFL. We saw the with former Bombers pick and ex-Bengal and ex-Raider Christopher Bilukidi. He decided to retire rather than come back north.

It does happen sometimes though. He'd be a solid special teamer right away, but not sure he would be straight to starter at MLB. Like you mention he would likely be a better option than Hurl in 2018, but I have doubts he would be able to come in and make an impact on defense right away.

Main thing influencing that decision is whether or not they qualify for an NFL pension. Once you have that, I can understand not wanting to come up north and sacrifice your body and long-term health for another 50-100K per season.

I'm not sure whether Bilukidi or Mulumba have qualified. I've heard it's three seasons, but I'm not 100% sure if that's accurate or what counts as a season for pension purposes. All I know is the story of Doug Brown being one game short of qualifying, poor guy.

 

[Whileee]

Nichols reminds me a bit of Tommy Burgess but faster. Not spectacular at anything but adequate at pretty much everything.

He looked like a slower Tommy Clements against the Esks. I have to admit, he's caught on to LaPo's offensive schemes and he's executing very effectively. I haven't been a big fan, but he's improving and is now performing at a high level.

 

[Whileee]

I like this list, even though I'm only old enough to remember one (Dunigan).

As for Mulumba, what are the chances he goes straight to the Bombers? He hasn't played three down ball since HS, so almost 10 years. He's probably going to need to shed 15-20 pounds to play LB in the CFL effectively. Having said all that, he would probably still be better than Hurl...

Biggest thing is that he's probably going to wait on any NFL teams that may sign him for special teams help. I think the most likely scenario is that he joins the Bombers for 2018.

Hurl is so soft and slow. If the Bombers could find a fast and tough MLB, they would be a much stronger team on D.

 

[GNP]

No Jack Jacobs???

Jack Jacobs was before my time, but my father told me he was really good, and passed the ball a lot, in an era where the run game was big. I don't think Jacobs won any Grey Cups though ? It would have been interesting to see him play. Don 747 Jonas, was also a good passer. I think I'll stick with my top 5

 

[GNP]

Right on Post Here !!!

Hurl is so soft and slow. If the Bombers could find a fast and tough MLB, they would be a much stronger team on D.

I view the middle linebacker spot as the Bombers weakest link, and if they could pick up a big strong fast middle linebacker from a late NFL cut, that's what I'd do. I don't think you could do much worse than what we have right now. If we had a "dominant" MLB the Bombers would be a formidable force, and could win the Cup.

 

[ps241]

I view the middle linebacker spot as the Bombers weakest link, and if they could pick up a big strong fast middle linebacker from a late NFL cut, that's what I'd do. I don't think you could do much worse than what we have right now. If we had a "dominant" MLB the Bombers would be a formidable force, and could win the Cup.

They just need a guy like O'Shea was in his prime

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I view the middle linebacker spot as the Bombers weakest link, and if they could pick up a big strong fast middle linebacker from a late NFL cut, that's what I'd do. I don't think you could do much worse than what we have right now. If we had a "dominant" MLB the Bombers would be a formidable force, and could win the Cup.

Problem is the ratio. Hurl is a National, they would need a national to replace him. They are only starting 7 right now, so if you replace Hurl with an international you need to change ratio elsewhere. Not sure there's an option for that in Bombers current setup.

Current starters: DE (Westerman/Chorney), C (Goosen), RG (Chung), REC (Feoli-Gudino/Coates), RB (Harris), S (Loffler), MLB (Hurl)

There's not alot of good options to place another National in lineup. The only one realistic is moving Johnson/Nevis into a rotation and Thomas/Ekakatie into the other spot of rotation. Bombers have not been using Ekakatie much though. Only other options are benching Adams, Thorpe, Denmark, or Dressler/Flanders to start both Coates and Feoli-Gudino, but with Richards retirement they don't really have much in the way of options for National backups at receiver, the other options (Blascko and Wolitarsky) haven't been on 46 man roster all year.