2017-2018 Blues Discussion Thread Part Three

[MortiestOfMortys]

That’s alright. He’s been off his game lately.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

Tage Thompson reassigned to SA. Sounds like Sanford is ready to be activated.

I wonder if his "injuries" was actually there or just getting him some rest. Still feel like he could have helped them more as the RW for Schenn and Schwartz than Berglund has. God...I hope DA moves one of our plethora of 3rd liners out...preferably an older one.

 

[mw2noobbuster]

I don't see Sanford making an impact at all, has he even gained any weight since his injury?

 

[Majorityof1]

Tage Thompson reassigned to SA. Sounds like Sanford is ready to be activated.

I hope that is not why. From what I have seen, Tage is much more NHL-Ready than Sanford was pre-injury, and has higher upside. I'd much rather play Tage with the Blues and let Sanford continue to rehab in San Antonio.

 

[HighNote]

I don't see Sanford making an impact at all, has he even gained any weight since his injury?

You'd have to think he at least worked on his lower-body strength. He's had 3/4 of the season to improve his skating, but we'll see soon enough. I'm doubtful that we've seen the end of Bambi on ice out there, but let's hope I'm wrong.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

People here were way too hard on Sanford because they were salty about the Shattenkirk trade and that he wasn’t a “big name” prospect, but his production was essentially the same as Barbashev, Thompson, Blais, and Fabbri’s first 20-some odd games with us. That unfair bias against him has of course carried over until now, unsurprisingly.

That said, a shoulder surgery is bound to take awhile to recover from, and I doubt we see him come in looking like a 50 point guy or anything like that this season. That of course will confirm to some of you what you think you know about him and you’ll continue dumping on him.

But I insist that he’s a quality player and is bound to be no worse than a solid top-9 addition to our group, and he has the potential to be more than that. We’ll have to see how he looks next season to see him flourish though, I would imagine. He’s gonna have some rust to knock off, obviously

 

[Majorityof1]

People here were way too hard on Sanford because they were salty about the Shattenkirk trade and that he wasn’t a “big name” prospect, but his production was essentially the same as Barbashev, Thompson, Blais, and Fabbri’s first 20-some odd games with us. That unfair bias against him has of course carried over until now, unsurprisingly.

That said, a shoulder surgery is bound to take awhile to recover from, and I doubt we see him come in looking like a 50 point guy or anything like that this season. That of course will confirm to some of you what you think you know about him and you’ll continue dumping on him.

But I insist that he’s a quality player and is bound to be no worse than a solid top-9 addition to our group, and he has the potential to be more than that. We’ll have to see how he looks next season to see him flourish though, I would imagine. He’s gonna have some rust to knock off, obviously

There is more to it than that, and you know it. We have gone around the bend on this a few times. You may disagree with the opinion and that is fine. But stop mischaracterizing people's arguments with an ad hoc generalization. "People disagree with me...oh, it must be because they are salty about the trade." I thought Sanford sucked long before he was ever rumored to be part of the Shattenkirk trade. I watched Washington a good bit that season, and he was atrocious with them. He got a few lucky (and a few skillful) points with us, but it was over a small sample size where he was incredibly weak everywhere else on the ice. 5 points while falling down everywhere is not exactly promising.

Also Fabbri, Barbashev, Thompson, etc's first 20 something games with us were there first 20 something NHL games. It is unfair to compare their first 20 games in the NHL with Sanford's 27th through 44th games. That is not even accounting for Sanford broke into the league as a 22/23 year old, which is older than Barbashev (21/22), Tage (19/20) and Fabbri (19/20). He is currently closer in age to Jaskin than he is Tage or Fabbri.

If he has rust to knock off, what is wrong with doing it in the AHL? I am not looking to have anything confirmed. I am just looking for the kid to not get killed because he can't stay on his skates. Let him knock off rust in the AHL while focusing hard on getting stronger on his skates.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

There is more to it than that, and you know it. We have gone around the bend on this a few times. You may disagree with the opinion and that is fine. But stop mischaracterizing people's arguments with an ad hoc generalization. "People disagree with me...oh, it must be because they are salty about the trade." I thought Sanford sucked long before he was ever rumored to be part of the Shattenkirk trade. I watched Washington a good bit that season, and he was atrocious with them. He got a few lucky (and a few skillful) points with us, but it was over a small sample size where he was incredibly weak everywhere else on the ice. 5 points while falling down everywhere is not exactly promising.

Also Fabbri, Barbashev, Thompson, etc's first 20 something games with us were there first 20 something NHL games. It is unfair to compare their first 20 games in the NHL with Sanford's 27th through 44th games. That is not even accounting for Sanford broke into the league as a 22/23 year old, which is older than Barbashev (21/22), Tage (19/20) and Fabbri (19/20). He is currently closer in age to Jaskin than he is Tage or Fabbri.

If he has rust to knock off, what is wrong with doing it in the AHL? I am not looking to have anything confirmed. I am just looking for the kid to not get killed because he can't stay on his skates. Let him knock off rust in the AHL while focusing hard on getting stronger on his skates.

Yeah I don’t disagree about the AHL, and in fact I believe that’s what will ultimately happen. I have no problems with that. The idea that he can’t stay on his skates is what I take issue with, because I think it’s completely bogus.

Apparently people have already forgotten what Oshie looked like when he first came into the league. *That* was a guy who couldn’t stay on his skates. People seem to have already forgotten when Rattie had two goals go in off his butt and they took that as a sign that he was finally breaking out and how dare we send down a guy with a huge PPG or whatever. I’ve seen Thompson on the ice dozens of times, with ne’er a peep from the peanut gallery. Same goes for Barbs: that goal he scored from the boards last week was lucky as all get out, not a word. All 3 have shown big glimpses, bright promise, and in particular the way Thompson and Sanford handle the puck for big dudes is very similar. The difference seems to be that people are staring daggers at Sanford, looking for any tiny thing that they can use to hate on the guy.

I just think it’s an unfair perception/reputation that people were happy giving him from day 1, when others have gotten a lot longer leash. That isn’t me being upset that people disagree with me, that’s factual. The conversation isn’t “oh he’s going to need to shake the rust off and get up to speed,” it’s “he sucked before and he’ll suck worse now lolol amiright guys?” It’s like you’re cheering against the guy. It’s silly

 

[Dbrownss]

I can't beleive there is this big of an argument over Zach Sanford.......


I was absolutely a wait and see person during after the trade. I wasn't excited but I'm no scout so what do I know. Personally I just didn't think Vrana was all that, but thats another topic.

My issue is with Zach Sanford coming in and being an impactful player after not playing NHL hockey for close to what...a year? This is coming off of shoulder surgery. Weve seen how bad a fairly lack luster Berglund looked post surgery...Why should we expect anything from Sanford in the NHL. That's my gripe......we're getting Sanford back, not Fabbri. If he plays this year in the NHL, whatever...good for him, but at no point do I expext anything from him. Just like at this point I'm not expecting anything from Barbashev, Thompson or Blais.

 

[EastonBlues22]

<snip>

I just think it’s an unfair perception/reputation that people were happy giving him from day 1, when others have gotten a lot longer leash. That isn’t me being upset that people disagree with me, that’s factual. The conversation isn’t “oh he’s going to need to shake the rust off and get up to speed,” it’s “he sucked before and he’ll suck worse now lolol amiright guys?” It’s like you’re cheering against the guy. It’s silly

What is this based on? Nobody is saying anything that sounds even remotely like that on this forum.

I don't recall reading anything that can be construed as cheering against the guy here, either.

It feels to me like you've constructed one giant straw-man in your mind that you feel the need to push back against.

I suggest quoting posts that you think represent those positions and responding to them directly, giving people a chance to defend themselves if they feel you're misinterpreting their intentions. It'll also help substantiate these claims you are making for those of us who aren't seeing what you're seeing.

 

[Bluesguru]

In all honesty Sanford isn't what this team needs. He's got some nice hands but isn't skilled enough to get away with being soft and the kid is soft. Lacks aggression big time. Hardly a key addition for the playoffs.

 

[PiggySmalls]

I’d be honestly surprised if Sanford does not go to the AHL to work on his timing and what else the coaches need him to do. I’m hoping Blais gets called back up, sucks that kids natural position is LW.

 

[Blanick]

Whoa did I miss something today. Was Sanford activated or expected to be activated by Friday?

 

[Zamadoo]

So, Thompson going down was for Sunqvist coming back up. Is Sanford waiver eligible? Or, could he be sent to the AHL straight from IR? I assume he could do the same thing Sundqvist did with a conditioning assignment to get him back up to speed, which is what I would like to see. I would guess we'd send Barbashev down when Sanford returns (Extras: Thorburn, Butler, Sundqvist).

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

So, Thompson going down was for Sunqvist coming back up. Is Sanford waiver eligible? Or, could he be sent to the AHL straight from IR? I assume he could do the same thing Sundqvist did with a conditioning assignment to get him back up to speed, which is what I would like to see. I would guess we'd send Barbashev down when Sanford returns (Extras: Thorburn, Butler, Sundqvist).

Thompson was sent down because he hadn’t played in awhile due to injury. We still have an open roster spot currently. Sanford will likely also start off in San Antonio when he’s healthy.

 

[The Note in MI]

JR with an article in the Athletic today regarding re-signing Stastny. Seems some fans are ok with letting him walk if he wants more than 4m AAV and would rather just see how we do. Also don’t want Tavares for his contract he’d likely command. But these people also don’t take into account moving 3.5 and 2.8 m off the books in a Gunnarsson and Sobotka trade. We can reasonably add a 3-5m dollar contract winger + resign our needed players + Tavares at 10-12 m and fit under the new cap inflation.



That all said, does anyone see the Blues not as a cap team with this big bump? We’ve spent to the cap every year for years now. 11/12 being the last time we weren’t if I recall

 

[BangarangxRufio]

JESUS! its like none of you remember Bandforts "filthy mitts"!?!? He will lead us to victory one close falling over backhand at a time.

 

[TK 421]

JR with an article in the Athletic today regarding re-signing Stastny. Seems some fans are ok with letting him walk if he wants more than 4m AAV and would rather just see how we do. Also don’t want Tavares for his contract he’d likely command. But these people also don’t take into account moving 3.5 and 2.8 m off the books in a Gunnarsson and Sobotka trade. We can reasonably add a 3-5m dollar contract winger + resign our needed players + Tavares at 10-12 m and fit under the new cap inflation.



That all said, does anyone see the Blues not as a cap team with this big bump? We’ve spent to the cap every year for years now. 11/12 being the last time we weren’t if I recall

Good question. I don't know and I've been wondering myself if we'll stay a cap team. I think Armstrong will only spend more if it's an obvious move like signing JT in UFA.

And lol at anyone thinking Pauly Walnuts is taking 4 mil AAV.

 

[Alklha]

JR with an article in the Athletic today regarding re-signing Stastny. Seems some fans are ok with letting him walk if he wants more than 4m AAV and would rather just see how we do. Also don’t want Tavares for his contract he’d likely command. But these people also don’t take into account moving 3.5 and 2.8 m off the books in a Gunnarsson and Sobotka trade. We can reasonably add a 3-5m dollar contract winger + resign our needed players + Tavares at 10-12 m and fit under the new cap inflation.



That all said, does anyone see the Blues not as a cap team with this big bump? We’ve spent to the cap every year for years now. 11/12 being the last time we weren’t if I recall

Stastny is easily worth more than $4m in the short term, the issue is the term that he is looking for. We need to explore other options first. It would be insane to not go after Tavares, even if he is looking for $12m. I still think he'll take $10m-$11m wherever he signs.

Will we still be a cap team next season? Probably. The issue here is that with our current contracts we are paying $4m more in salary than the cap hit of our players. There is a rough outline of the budget made long in advance, so when Armstrong was giving Steen, Schwartz, Parayko and Berglund $24.45m in salary next season then he would know he'd have salary flexibility. Particularly when 2 of those players aren't getting traded and the other 2 are getting NTC's.

 

[Celtic Note]

Stastny should command $5.5M-ish in my book. I would expect he wants/gets 3-4 years on that deal.

 

[Blueston]

I don't like this team. We keep questioning whether they play hard, but you see that with most teams. They just don't play balls-out every night for 82 games, which is why a team like Vegas is having so much success because they do. Blues really are one of the better teams in the league in terms of consistent effort, quite frankly. My issue with them isn't effort or coaching. I don't like this team because they just aren't talented enough. They have too many players who are just guys. They have gotten basically nothing out of the 3rd line all season. They never replaced Fabbri and they didn't get what they expected from Sobotka or Berglund or Barbs or Jaskin or Pay-r-v or Bennett or the power play (or Allen, but that is different issue). So we don't score. We are a mediocre team who quite frankly isn't very interesting to watch. So I don't like this team.

But I love this organization. I don't mean that I am a fan and love them. That is true, but not my point. I love this organization because we have the Big 4 coming and Blais and Walman and Husso. And we have Bill Armstrong and his guys who look to be really good at finding more young talent. But I also love that Doug Armstrong is our GM. Not because he is perfect. He has made some trades that didn't work out. Some trades that even at the time seemed like they wouldn't work out. But I love that Doug Armstrong doesn't like this team either (and great article by JR tonight, btw). He realizes that this team isn't very good. He isn't going to trade top prospect for a rental because there isn't a rental available who would make us true contender. He gets that better times are ahead. That he committed to vets who haven't played up to their contract and don't fit into our plans. And he is trying to remake us.

I would love to see us deal off Sobie and Berglund over the next 10 days. Gunnar and Jaybo perhaps too if someone is eager for them. But if not over next 10 days, then at the draft. Turn the page on most of our bottom 6 forwards before next season. The game has changed and we need to evolve. More speed, more attacking, more skill. We obviously can't play a half dozen rookies at same time or we will get killed, but we all know that isn't Blues way. We are in transition. The day Backes left our window closed. The Hitch teams had great run (not great enough ultimately), but we have been in transition since that day. And what we have this year is work in progress. Growing pains, if you will. But it is clear that this is not team Doug Armstrong envisions going forward. Loved what he said in JR article- core is Tank, Schenn, JS, Petro, Parayko. Want to keep at least 2-3 of the best prospects. Pretty much everyone else is available. Which is exactly how I would want it. We have a handful of excellent players, but not enough. And we need to increase our payroll flexibility to bring in more talent. Which we desperately need. Because I don't like this team. And our GM doesn't like this team either.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

JR is still pushing the Maroon stupidity. He continues to say “it is believed”, “it is speculation”, etc., so I still take it as “this is just my opinion”, and it’s a stupid one. It just doesn’t fit anything Armstrong says, and it seems like he’s just pasting it into his article to bring up the word count.

He’s also saying that we turned down Fabbri+prospect for Hoffman (he assumes Thomas). If this is true, Armstrong would be an idiot to accept that; Hoffman doesn’t return those kind of assets. If JR was speculating and thought Thomas was a fair ask, then he’s an idiot. My guess is that it was Fabbri+ a non-top 4 prospect. Armstrong was right to say no to that as well.

The good news is that Armstrong is content with staying put, and possibly moving out one of Berglund or Sobotka (according to JR speculation). If you haven’t noticed, I don’t really think JR is good at speculating, but I do think Sobotka is likely on the way out at the very least.

Given Ottawa’s financial issues, and with Dorion seeming committed to Ceci, I think Hoffman will have to be moved eventually. Waiting until the summer, or early next season makes more sense for STL; Hoffman’s price will be lower, and by then we will know the Tavares situation, as well as Thomas and Kyrou’s situations.

If Hoffman is coming here, I doubt it’s for one of our big prospects, and I don’t believe it will include Fabbri. That’s not to say Hoffman will be coming here, but I don’t think the Blues pay the price unless it’s lower than those pieces.

Staying put at the deadline (other than some bottom-6 shuffling, and maybe some depth players) is probably what we will do.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Sell the passengers....give the kids the keys to the bus....

 

[TheDizee]

maroon is the type of player the team needs TBH. someone that will drag people into puck battles and play a physical style, with the ability to finish when called upon. the problem is, we have TOO MANY dead weights on this team in similar 3rd line slots. people like berglund, sobotoka.

bergie had a kickass season last year (outside playoffs) and has been back to being a total bust again, hes gotta go IMO.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Sell the passengers....give the kids the keys to the bus....

I disagree with the “passengers” moniker. We don’t have a passengers issue - there aren’t guys on this team just content with grabbing a paycheck and then moving on with their lives when their contract is up. We do have an issue with talent, though.

Our team is good enough to be good, but not good enough to be in contention for the best team in the Central - not anymore. This is less so an issue with losing that talent in Backes, Oshie, etc., and has more to do with WPG, and NSH getting better via draft and trade. DAL and COL are iffy, but they need to get better before they can start challenging the top 2.

Armstrong mentioned that “your first three lines have to be pretty much interchangeable”, and I believe that to be more or less true - in the Central. He acknowledges that our issues are the forwards, and that we need to have more talent in our top-9.

This shouldn’t be a shock to anyone - we are transitioning from a big and slow team to a fast and skilled team, and we just started that transition. Armstrong realizes this, and I think that is why he is looking on from the old core, and has named the new core Tarasenko, Schwartz, Schenn, Pietrangelo, and Parayko. We will see how the new kids do in the next season, while retaining our older players until they are made obsolete. The players we have now are good complimentary players, so I don’t think Armstrong shares the opinion of “getting rid of the ‘passengers’”, or removing the vets like some on this board do. If you are expecting a bunch of moves clearing out vets, it’s just not going to happen; we are in the middle of a re-tool, and if Armstrong were willing to burn everything to the ground, he would have done that at the end of last season.

We will continue on with transitioning out the old core as the new core establishes itself, but we aren’t going to blindly gift those positions to our youth.