2017-2018 Blues Discussion Thread Part Three

[rumrokh]

I'll give Sundqvist the benefit of the doubt, but based on his NHL stats to this point, he can't even match Ty Ratties (abysmal) production. Granted, stats don't tell us anything about his intensity, possession, hockey IQ, defensive ability, etc. but by all accounts (from Pens fans) he's a borderline NHL'er who offers very little in terms of production. If that's the case, and the best we can hope for is for his line to force a scoreless stalemate, I have a hard time believing we arent better off with him on the bench.

I'll give him 20 games or so before judging him...but I don't expect much.

He only played 10 games with them last year and was a 21 year old rookie the previous season. I've also seen Penguins fans assuming he'd be their 3rd line center. It's not easy to judge young players, especially on the words of fans who are rationalizing a trade.

That doesn't mean Sundqvist will amount to much, but he looks to be at least a serviceable player who also seems to have room to grow.

I think Blues fans are abnormally low on anyone they've never heard of. Sanford, for example, as a rookie, produced at a rate with the Blues that's very close to Sobotka's career production rate with the Blues, but posters here were fairly down on his potential. It just seems like a pattern of self-protection through pessimism. If they fail, we get to be right, if they succeed, we celebrate alongside everyone else.

 

[stl76]

Player most likely with 20G this season

Jaskin
Thompson
Sobotka
Barbashev

I'll take Sobotka for $200, Alex! Given a full season and a healthy dose of top 6 usage, I think 20 goals is possible. Jaskin and Barbashev have an outside shot as well depending on usage, tho I think its a lot slimmer of a chance. Thompson has very little chance IMO.

He only played 10 games with them last year and was a 21 year old rookie the previous season. I've also seen Penguins fans assuming he'd be their 3rd line center. It's not easy to judge young players, especially on the words of fans who are rationalizing a trade.

That doesn't mean Sundqvist will amount to much, but he looks to be at least a serviceable player who also seems to have room to grow.

I think Blues fans are abnormally low on anyone they've never heard of. Sanford, for example, as a rookie, produced at a rate with the Blues that's very close to Sobotka's career production rate with the Blues, but posters here were fairly down on his potential. It just seems like a pattern of self-protection through pessimism. If they fail, we get to be right, if they succeed, we celebrate alongside everyone else.

Bolded is so true it hurts.

 

[Majorityof1]

I think Blues fans are abnormally low on anyone they've never heard of. Sanford, for example, as a rookie, produced at a rate with the Blues that's very close to Sobotka's career production rate with the Blues, but posters here were fairly down on his potential. It just seems like a pattern of self-protection through pessimism. If they fail, we get to be right, if they succeed, we celebrate alongside everyone else.

Or its their honest assessment. I am the most down on Sanford (or at least the most vocal about it), but I believe I was also the first person to vote for Sunqvist on the prospect rankings, as I had him relatively high and told people not to sleep on him. So I don't fit your pattern of always being down on new players. Granted, I was aware of both players and had watched both players prior to our acquisition of them. My assessment of both is based on what I have seen of them while not playing for the Blues.

 

[Splatter]

Blues season preview on KMOX now.

http://player.radio.com/listen/station/newsradio-1120-kmox

 

[rumrokh]

Or its their honest assessment. I am the most down on Sanford (or at least the most vocal about it), but I believe I was also the first person to vote for Sunqvist on the prospect rankings, as I had him relatively high and told people not to sleep on him. So I don't fit your pattern of always being down on new players. Granted, I was aware of both players and had watched both players prior to our acquisition of them. My assessment of both is based on what I have seen of them while not playing for the Blues.

I'm in no way saying that everyone who is ever down on any player adheres to this pattern or motive. But it seems to be a pattern for the fan base as a whole.

Of course there will be informed and honest appraisals. But people come by their biases "honestly" as well.

 

[BlueDream]

Player most likely with 20G this season

Jaskin
Thompson
Sobotka
Barbashev

I'd take Barbashev very easily.

As pessimistic as I am about the current lineup, I am looking forward to seeing what the young guys do. I'm surprised Thompson made the team. I thought he needed a full year in the AHL and then would be ready to contribute next season. We'll see what he's made of, but if he doesn't have it we can always swap him out with Blais.

Jaskin I have certainly been critical of and I'm not expecting much of anything, but if we could even salvage himself into a 3rd liner that'd be a huge success at this point. Hopefully he somehow can find ways to pop in more than just 1 goal this season.

Regarding the Sundqvist talk, no idea what to expect from him. I don't view him as a guy with a high offensive ceiling, but he did produce well in the AHL last year. We'll see. He's probably got the same skill level as Sanford, which might only be as a 3rd liner but just like Jaskin - we could really use that right now if they could at least stabilize that 3rd line for us. We need a couple of these guys to become more than 4th-line caliber. If they can do that and we can get Steen and Berglund back without much more bad luck, it could be a fine year.

Tomorrow should be fun.

 

[PiggySmalls]

I'm in no way saying that everyone who is ever down on any player adheres to this pattern or motive. But it seems to be a pattern for the fan base as a whole.

Of course there will be informed and honest appraisals. But people come by their biases "honestly" as well.

That is very true. The second Sanford got here many were down on him. Too many set out to make it a Barbashev vs. Sanford no holds bar match. I don’t get it. A rookie came here at the trade deadline with a coach who became the HC less then a month prior. Yet folks threw him aside as another bad return on Shattenkirk.

 

[shpongle falls]

Ha, stl76 as I was reading through this thread I was so going to post that Sobotka playoff goal as evidence that Sobi looks like he improved his shot while playing an offensive role in the KHL. But you beat me to it. lol

I'm curious to see how he performs as a temporary top 6 forwards with us.

 

[thigpen]

I never really had much of a problem with the Upshall signing, but I do have a problem with him penciled in on the 4th line opening night. He just got back on the team and he's already a starter? That just doesn't seem right at all.

Couldn't agree more that it doesn't fit with the Yeo mantra and neither does Thorburn in the starting lineup. Vet bias will see those plugs running around the ice taking penalties, mmw. It would make more sense to me to send a message to Barbashev by limiting his TOI on the 4th line in place of Thorburn. I really hope Thorbs is only dressing to square off against a motivated Reavo, and then disappears.

 

[Majorityof1]

I'm in no way saying that everyone who is ever down on any player adheres to this pattern or motive. But it seems to be a pattern for the fan base as a whole.
Of course there will be informed and honest appraisals. But people come by their biases "honestly" as well.

Absolutely, people can be both biased and informed. Just because someone comes to a conclusion based on more evidence, does not necessarily make that conclusion more correct. I just dislike it when someone attaches a psychological reasoning to opinions that differ from theirs as a way to undercut said opinion. It is lazy and counter-productive to discussion. Even if you don't mean to include everyone, you are undercutting the opinion itself by creating a straw-man of you perception of the fan-base as a whole, and then on top of that adding an ad hominem attack on that straw man's psychological reasoning for holding their opinion. Nowhere does it discuss the actual issue at hand, in this case are Sanford or Sunqvist valuable prospects. I am not saying you did this or it was your intention necessarily. Because you did actually discuss Sunqvist's merits. But the Sanford thing seemed tacked on, more for brevity than any nefarious reasoning, I'm sure.

That is very true. The second Sanford got here many were down on him. Too many set out to make it a Barbashev vs. Sanford no holds bar match. I don’t get it. A rookie came here at the trade deadline with a coach who became the HC less then a month prior. Yet folks threw him aside as another bad return on Shattenkirk.

He WAS a bad return for Shattenkirk. It wasn't just Blues fans. Caps fans , neutral fans and experts for the most part also thought the return was low. In retrospect, Caps fans may disagree given what they got out of Shatty. However, at the time, the general consensus was that it was a bad return, with not a single cap's fan too upset about what they gave up, which says a good deal.. It does not matter the least that Sanford is a rookie, or if the coach has been there a month or a day. What matters is that the prospect has an expected value based on the likelihood of them becoming a useful player in the future and exactly how useful. We can disagree what that value is, but that disagreement should be based on the player and have nothing to do with Barbashev. I am not sure where you are getting that they were compared, except for maybe discussion on competition for a roster spot on a healthy team.

 

[Splatter]

Player most likely with 20G this season

Jaskin
Thompson
Sobotka
Barbashev

Jaskin is a puzzle that nobody with the Blues has been able to figure out yet. Maybe the new Wolves coaches can fix him. He was a beast in juniors and looked promising a few years ago. I think he has it in him, but it would really surprise me if he did. A lot of his problems seem like they're mental. He hasn't seemed like a confident player in the past few seasons.

As much praise as that line has been getting from Yeo, I don't see Thompson getting 20 goals pairing with Paajarvi and Sundqvist. Maybe I'm wrong though. Similarly, I don't know if Barbashev will have the support to knock in 20. First things first, he needs to get the coaching staff back behind him. Maybe what's going on now is just a brief blip. I hope so.

Sobotka will have the best opportunities, so I think he's most likely. The coaching staff sees him as somebody they can count on, which I don't believe is the case with the rest of them right now. I don't see Sobotka potentially losing favor and ice time like the rest. His place is the third line, but he's going to be the first guy plugged in the top six or power play when somebody is hurt.

 

[thigpen]

Couldn't agree more that it doesn't fit with the Yeo mantra and neither does Thorburn in the starting lineup. Vet bias will see those plugs running around the ice taking penalties, mmw. It would make more sense to me to send a message to Barbashev by limiting his TOI on the 4th line in place of Thorburn. I really hope Thorbs is only dressing to square off against a motivated Reavo, and then disappears.

Besides, we could use one or both of Barbashev and Megan's superior ability manning the PK.

 

[frostyflo]

Hey guys, does anyone know where to watch fsmidwests Blues season preview? Couldn't find it on their HP

Thanks!

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

Besides, we could use one or both of Barbashev and Megan's superior ability manning the PK.

Did you mean for this to be in blue font because I actually think it would do wonders to have them on the PK. Players with some actual offensive prowess? Maybe score a shorty?

 

[Renard]

Absolutely, people can be both biased and informed. Just because someone comes to a conclusion based on more evidence, does not necessarily make that conclusion more correct. I just dislike it when someone attaches a psychological reasoning to opinions that differ from theirs as a way to undercut said opinion. It is lazy and counter-productive to discussion. Even if you don't mean to include everyone, you are undercutting the opinion itself by creating a straw-man of you perception of the fan-base as a whole, and then on top of that adding an ad hominem attack on that straw man's psychological reasoning for holding their opinion. Nowhere does it discuss the actual issue at hand, in this case are Sanford or Sunqvist valuable prospects. I am not saying you did this or it was your intention necessarily. Because you did actually discuss Sunqvist's merits. But the Sanford thing seemed tacked on, more for brevity than any nefarious reasoning, I'm sure.



He WAS a bad return for Shattenkirk. It wasn't just Blues fans. Caps fans , neutral fans and experts for the most part also thought the return was low. In retrospect, Caps fans may disagree given what they got out of Shatty. However, at the time, the general consensus was that it was a bad return, with not a single cap's fan too upset about what they gave up, which says a good deal.. It does not matter the least that Sanford is a rookie, or if the coach has been there a month or a day. What matters is that the prospect has an expected value based on the likelihood of them becoming a useful player in the future and exactly how useful. We can disagree what that value is, but that disagreement should be based on the player and have nothing to do with Barbashev. I am not sure where you are getting that they were compared, except for maybe discussion on competition for a roster spot on a healthy team.

We do not know how good Sanford will be for a couple of years. Lets consider the return when we know what we have.

 

[Majorityof1]

We do not know how good Sanford will be for a couple of years. Lets consider the return when we know what we have.

GMs don't have that luxury. They have to evaluate the trade now. So we can and should be able to evaluate the trade in the now. There is definitely a chance that a trade that is bad now, can end up being good. Just like a 7th round draft pick can end up being Pavelski. But that doesn't mean that if someone traded a 1st rounder for that 7th that it was a good trade. Because they could have gotten that 7th and a lot more as well.

Also, Sanford is 24. If he misses the year, he'll be 25 when he returns. Give him a couple of years and he'll be a UFA. Do we really need to wait until someone is 27 to know what we got? People have written off Jaskin at a much earlier age. Sanford is hitting his physical prime and is not strong enough to stay on his skates against a slow breeze much less a hit. That's why he's injured. And he's not going to be bulking up while recuperating. He needs to get much stronger on his skates very quickly or it will be too late.

 

[Brian39]

Couldn't agree more that it doesn't fit with the Yeo mantra and neither does Thorburn in the starting lineup. Vet bias will see those plugs running around the ice taking penalties, mmw. It would make more sense to me to send a message to Barbashev by limiting his TOI on the 4th line in place of Thorburn. I really hope Thorbs is only dressing to square off against a motivated Reavo, and then disappears.

I'm not a fan of the Thorburn acquisition as I am one who thinks that the traditional enforcer role doesn't really fit in today's NHL. With that said, he is on the roster and our GM and/or coach clearly disagrees with me. I'm hopeful that he bounces in and out of the lineup and only dresses when we are playing physical/nasty teams or teams with a true heavyweight.

I know we all tend to read a lot into the opening night lineup as a forecaster of the next 20 games, but none of us really know where Yeo's head is at. Hopefully, Thorburn isn't penciled in as a regular for 70 games. With that said, if there is any night you want to dress your tough guy, it's when Ryan Reaves is lining up on the opponent's 4th line.

Also, there is Blues hockey tonight!

 

[SirPaste]

Player most likely with 20G this season

Jaskin
Thompson
Sobotka
Barbashev

I don't think any of these guys get close to 20 but best chance is probably Sobotka, I could see him getting around 13-15

 

[BlueDream]

GMs don't have that luxury. They have to evaluate the trade now. So we can and should be able to evaluate the trade in the now. There is definitely a chance that a trade that is bad now, can end up being good. Just like a 7th round draft pick can end up being Pavelski. But that doesn't mean that if someone traded a 1st rounder for that 7th that it was a good trade. Because they could have gotten that 7th and a lot more as well.

Also, Sanford is 24. If he misses the year, he'll be 25 when he returns. Give him a couple of years and he'll be a UFA. Do we really need to wait until someone is 27 to know what we got? People have written off Jaskin at a much earlier age. Sanford is hitting his physical prime and is not strong enough to stay on his skates against a slow breeze much less a hit. That's why he's injured. And he's not going to be bulking up while recuperating. He needs to get much stronger on his skates very quickly or it will be too late.

Actually it's not that concerning. Sanford is only 22 right now. So he has time to fill out and add another 5-10 pounds of muscle over the next year. He will only be 23 next year (about to turn 24 a month after the season starts) when he should crack our lineup and stay in the NHL. So giving this season to him as a year to get healthy and develop isn't the end of the world. We still have plenty of time to see what he has.

 

[Majorityof1]

My bad, I was a year off. My brain shut-off for a second there. But still, point stands. Everyone had written Jaskin or Rattie off last year when they were 23, some even at 22, and nobody batted an eyelash. Yet try to say Sanford is bad or is a long shot to being more than a depth player and people are up in arms. Sanford will be 23 before we see him again and close to 24. He is not some fresh kid who is just growing into his body. He just seems like it. Tage is 3 years younger and already stronger than Sanford. Tage still needs to get stronger still too, which highlights how far behind Sanford is. Its not impossible for Sanford to get there, but its not promising to me.

 

[David Dennison]

I think Jaskin could pot 20 with more quality ice time, I think he has gotten buried on some deep Blues rosters over the past few years. I would certainly call him a complementary player, but he might find openings if Schenn and Schwartz can do the heavy lifting.

 

[izzy]

yeah hes big and has hands

put him in front on the pp and let him gain confidence

 

[David Dennison]

Schenn is 10, used to be Upshall. Upshall is 9, used to be Schwartz. Schwartz is 17, used to be Sobotka now 71. f*** you, figure it out.

 

[Lakas]

Schenn is 10, used to be Upshall. Upshall is 9, used to be Schwartz. Schwartz is 17, used to be Sobotka now 71. **** you, figure it out.

I wonder what Malkin wants his new number to be.

 

[TheDizee]

petro leading the league in goals