2017-18 stats and underlying metrics thread [Mod: updated season]

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garret9

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I guess it's no use to keep arguing, as this is anyways a pretty much philosophical argument after all. I just am a person who values very much individualism and the differences, strengths and weaknesses that humans can have. All this creates intriguing "stories" and interaction in everything that humans do. Hockey is and even sports are in general are practically individualism used for collective causes in very exciting ways. I just don't see sports benefitting from getting too scientific and "robotized".

As I have said, I'm not really in general interested in advanced stats, but if you guys know if there are any stats about the quality of the shot attempts that NHL players have made for a couple of last seasons, that could be in fact pretty interesting stats for me too. I'm not sure of the predictive value that even those stats would have. But it would in my opinion show at least more about the skills for scoring that each players have.

You are a few years behind the times and ignoring an essential part of the conversation we've been having in this and the last thread then:
https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/10/0...predictor-of-future-scoring-than-corsi-goals/

I've mentioned xGoals (Expected Goals) many times in this and the Laine thread. xGoals is Corsi adjusted for shot quality factors.

XPM is the biggest part of GAR, the stat that brought up this whole debate in the Laine thread.
XPM is Expected Plus-Minus. It's xGoals but adjusted for usage factors (teammates, opponents, coaches, schedule, zone starts, and score effects).
When I gave the five articles on WAR/GAR and what goes into them, one of the articles was on the creation of XPM, which also links to the creation of xGoals.

I find it a bit frustrating that you are arguing against advance stats, yet do not even understand what these advance stats are and how they are used.

That said, even without shot quality factors, shot quantity (Corsi) still exceedingly out performs goals.
 
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lomiller1

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I guess it's no use to keep arguing, as this is anyways a pretty much philosophical argument after all
It really isn’t. The most successful physics model ever developed is fundamental based on events that individually are random but skewed in favor of one result over another so that over increasing sample sizes outcomes don’t just become predictable but inevitable.
I just am a person who values very much individualism and the differences, strengths and weaknesses that humans can have.
Great, but you still need to be able to spate what is actually a strength from “just getting luckyâ€. (You should also keep in mind that game theory shows pretty conclusively how working as a team can produce better overall results than working in your own best interests if you can trust everyone else to do the same)
 

surixon

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It really isn’t. The most successful physics model ever developed is fundamental based on events that individually are random but skewed in favor of one result over another so that over increasing sample sizes outcomes don’t just become predictable but inevitable.

Great, but you still need to be able to spate what is actually a strength from “just getting luckyâ€. (You should also keep in mind that game theory shows pretty conclusively how working as a team can produce better overall results than working in your own best interests if you can trust everyone else to do the same)

Ah game theory and good old prisoners dilemma, that takes me back to some of my favorite classes in university.
 

Peggy

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Advanced stats are useful, But they still need context
Problem is people act as if they speak for themselves and in certain cases they do not

This goes for all stats of course
 

garret9

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Advanced stats are useful, But they still need context
Problem is people act as if they speak for themselves and in certain cases they do not

This goes for all stats of course

Of course, we could replace "stats" with other words like:
eye-test
opinion
etc.

As I like to say:

All statistical models are wrong, but some are useful.
All people are wrong, but some are useful.
Numbers only tell you a part of the picture, but that part is an important part and cannot be ignored.
 

Peggy

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Of course, we could replace "stats" with other words like:
eye-test
opinion
etc.

As I like to say:

All statistical models are wrong, but some are useful.
All people are wrong, but some are useful.
Numbers only tell you a part of the picture, but that part is an important part and cannot be ignored.

Do those stats explain why scheifele and Laine shoot high percentages without saying "luck"

That's a genuine question
 
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Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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Of course, we could replace "stats" with other words like:
eye-test
opinion
etc.

As I like to say:

All statistical models are wrong, but some are useful.
All people are wrong, but some are useful.
Numbers only tell you a part of the picture, but that part is an important part and cannot be ignored.

Great perspective.

I hope that statistical methods, including input data, continue to improve and provide more insights about this fascinating game.

Not to long ago, a colleague of mine, who's a UK-based academic mathematician shared that he thought that ice hockey was one of the best games because it had just the right amount of scoring. Goals are rare enough that there is an element of chance and probabilities involved (in relation to chances), but common enough that they aren't overly influenced by chance. Beyond the statistical principles, from a fan's perspective scoring is just common enough to keep up the interest, and just rare enough that each goal is consequential and exciting.

It's a perfect game for statisticians. Garret has the perfect playground for a career in statistical analysis, but analysts will need to continually push the envelope on methods and refine input data and models to add better predictive capabilities than they are currently able.
 

Peggy

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Eye test can easily tell you why Scheifele gets so much more "lucky " with Laine. Kid plays tap ins for others so those are higher quality scoring chances than normal shots

I'd say it goes for both. Just good plays opening up the net. Not so much puck luck as Laine has been sniping them from far out

This is where I'd like to know what stats are coming into play

Obviously The bigger the target the more likely you are going to hit it
 
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ps241

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Of course, we could replace "stats" with other words like:
eye-test
opinion
etc.

As I like to say:

All statistical models are wrong, but some are useful.
All people are wrong, but some are useful.
Numbers only tell you a part of the picture, but that part is an important part and cannot be ignored.

Great perspective.

I hope that statistical methods, including input data, continue to improve and provide more insights about this fascinating game.

Not to long ago, a colleague of mine, who's a UK-based academic mathematician shared that he thought that ice hockey was one of the best games because it had just the right amount of scoring. Goals are rare enough that there is an element of chance and probabilities involved (in relation to chances), but common enough that they aren't overly influenced by chance. Beyond the statistical principles, from a fan's perspective scoring is just common enough to keep up the interest, and just rare enough that each goal is consequential and exciting.

It's a perfect game for statisticians. Garret has the perfect playground for a career in statistical analysis, but analysts will need to continually push the envelope on methods and refine input data and models to add better predictive capabilities than they are currently able.

As a businessman but not a stats guy what would be the best way to increase the statistical probability of NHL models if you could wave a wand?

A chip in the puck, players uniform, and a sky cam to track all relevant movement on the ice?
 
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WPGChief

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As a businessman but not a stats guy what would be the best way to increase the statistical probability of NHL models if you could wave a wand.

A chip in the puck, players uniform, and a sky cam to track all relevant movement on the ice?

The best ways to improve models would be uniformity and accuracy. It already somewhat hurts NHL statistics right now, with needing a "venue" adjustment because some stats guys at certain arenas may like awarding hits, turnovers, shots, etc. more than others.

A combination of those three would probably yield both those. Here's two presentations from OTTHAC about companies trying to do one or the other:





EDIT: Uniformity meaning all 31 NHL teams have the systems in place at their arenas and agree on definitions. i.e. some teams may regard a zone entry as only successful if they got a 'decent' shot on net; others would consider it successful based on how long they were in the zone; maybe some would say if they maintained possession across the blue line and after for about 2-3 seconds, etc.
 
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garret9

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Do those stats explain why Scheifele and Laine shoot high percentages without saying "luck"

That's a genuine question

As an aside conversation, since the answer yes or no does not refute the previous question:
Sort of...

The reason for "sort of" is because of you asking "why" and also saying "high" and "luck".

"High" is an undefined and relative term.
Mark Scheifele over his four seasons shot 13%, 9%, 15%, and 20%. Last year could be considered "high" relative to league average (9ish), but also "high" relative to his career shooting percentage of 14%.

"Luck" is a loose term too.
Over 100 coin tosses, you will likely be fairly close to 50/50. If you broke down each set of 10 tosses, though, many would significantly differ from 50/50.
In a game where "heads" is a positive result, getting more or fewer than 50/50 could be seen as good or bad luck.
Hockey differs from coin tossing in three ways.
1) The odds are not perfectly 50/50. It is weighted, and you do not know perfectly by how much (but stats and eye test can help you estimate it to some level of confidence).
2) There are many large variables at play causing each coin flip to not be perfectly in the the same environment to some significant degree (coin toss has the same but it is not very significant in pulling from 50/50).
3) The human element is a variable that will cause things to fluctuate slightly from that mean. A player is not equally good one game to the next, so even the underlying weighting outside from the environment and outside variables will fluctuate.
When we hockey statisticians use the term, it's typically to represent results being different from what one should expect moving forward given what the player controls.

Now, if you want an answer to "why" Scheifele shot higher than 14% outside of variance, stats can offer you some solutions.

As I noted earlier, we have a model called expected goals. It looks at variables like:
1) Shot distance - closer => more goals per shot
2) Shot angle - tighter => more goals per shot
3) Shot type - slap, snap, wrist, wraparound, etc. have different sh%
4) Rebound shots - sh% of shots differ given time between last shot
5) Rush shots - sh% of shots differ given time and location from last non-shot event
6) Handedness - sh% from each side of ice differs given a righty or lefty shooting

Now, getting into more of the fun stuff, there are factors in shot quality we currently do not measure: shooter's accuracy, shooter's velocity, etc.

We do not account for those things. However, we (well some of us) do use regressed shooter history to adjust expected goals.
For example: Stamkos historically scores about 41% more goals than expected after accounting for those variables in expected goals. In all likelihood, given his large sample, we can safely say he's better at the things we do not measure which gives him this impact.
We can adjust by his regressed shooter history, severely reducing the impact of his non-accounted for factors.

Now there are two issues with this adjustment:
1) Some people change. Most do not, at least not significantly so, but some do.
2) Not everyone has enough history to account for. One example of this is Laine, as he was a rookie with no past history.

#2 is an issue with Laine, but you can still look at some stuff and make some assumptions.
One assumption I would make is that I expect Laine, given my eye test, to be an above average finisher, so I'm not surprised he has higher goals than xgoals.
One other assumption I would make is that last year's shooting percentage was still somewhat lucky. As I pointed out earlier, Stamkos finishes about 41% more goals than expected after accounting for the shot quality variables we can account for. That's the highest conversion rate for those with sufficient sample. Laine last year out performed xgoals almost with 140% more goals than expected... I do not expect Laine to be 3x better than average than the next best finisher in modern history.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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As a businessman but not a stats guy what would be the best way to increase the statistical probability of NHL models if you could wave a wand.

A chip in the puck, players uniform, and a sky cam to track all relevant movement on the ice?

The best ways to improve models would be uniformity and accuracy. It already somewhat hurts NHL statistics right now, with needing a "venue" adjustment because some stats guys at certain arenas may like awarding hits, turnovers, shots, etc. more than others.

A combination of those three would probably yield both those. Here's two presentations from OTTHAC about companies trying to do one or the other:





EDIT: Uniformity meaning all 31 NHL teams have the systems in place at their arenas and agree on definitions. i.e. some teams may regard a zone entry as only successful if they got a 'decent' shot on net; others would consider it successful based on how long they were in the zone; maybe some would say if they maintained possession across the blue line and after for about 2-3 seconds, etc.


I think collecting better input data more reliably would be an important step forward. I think that's already begun.

However, I also think that the modeling techniques will need to become more "advanced" to account for the complexity of interactions, feed-back loops, threshold effects, etc.

Also, I think that the incorporation of more qualitative research methods, with some focus on structural factors within teams would be of considerable interest.
 

Peggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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As an aside conversation, since the answer yes or no does not refute the previous question:
Sort of...

The reason for "sort of" is because of you asking "why" and also saying "high" and "luck".

"High" is an undefined and relative term.
Mark Scheifele over his four seasons shot 13%, 9%, 15%, and 20%. Last year could be considered "high" relative to league average (9ish), but also "high" relative to his career shooting percentage of 14%.

"Luck" is a loose term too.
Over 100 coin tosses, you will likely be fairly close to 50/50. If you broke down each set of 10 tosses, though, many would significantly differ from 50/50.
In a game where "heads" is a positive result, getting more or fewer than 50/50 could be seen as good or bad luck.
Hockey differs from coin tossing in three ways.
1) The odds are not perfectly 50/50. It is weighted, and you do not know perfectly by how much (but stats and eye test can help you estimate it to some level of confidence).
2) There are many large variables at play causing each coin flip to not be perfectly in the the same environment to some significant degree (coin toss has the same but it is not very significant in pulling from 50/50).
3) The human element is a variable that will cause things to fluctuate slightly from that mean. A player is not equally good one game to the next, so even the underlying weighting outside from the environment and outside variables will fluctuate.
When we hockey statisticians use the term, it's typically to represent results being different from what one should expect moving forward given what the player controls.

Now, if you want an answer to "why" Scheifele shot higher than 14% outside of variance, stats can offer you some solutions.

As I noted earlier, we have a model called expected goals. It looks at variables like:
1) Shot distance - closer => more goals per shot
2) Shot angle - tighter => more goals per shot
3) Shot type - slap, snap, wrist, wraparound, etc. have different sh%
4) Rebound shots - sh% of shots differ given time between last shot
5) Rush shots - sh% of shots differ given time and location from last non-shot event
6) Handedness - sh% from each side of ice differs given a righty or lefty shooting

Now, getting into more of the fun stuff, there are factors in shot quality we currently do not measure: shooter's accuracy, shooter's velocity, etc.

We do not account for those things. However, we (well some of us) do use regressed shooter history to adjust expected goals.
For example: Stamkos historically scores about 41% more goals than expected after accounting for those variables in expected goals. In all likelihood, given his large sample, we can safely say he's better at the things we do not measure which gives him this impact.
We can adjust by his regressed shooter history, severely reducing the impact of his non-accounted for factors.

Now there are two issues with this adjustment:
1) Some people change. Most do not, at least not significantly so, but some do.
2) Not everyone has enough history to account for. One example of this is Laine, as he was a rookie with no past history.

#2 is an issue with Laine, but you can still look at some stuff and make some assumptions.
One assumption I would make is that I expect Laine, given my eye test, to be an above average finisher, so I'm not surprised he has higher goals than xgoals.
One other assumption I would make is that last year's shooting percentage was still somewhat lucky. As I pointed out earlier, Stamkos finishes about 41% more goals than expected after accounting for the shot quality variables we can account for. That's the highest conversion rate for those with sufficient sample. Laine last year out performed xgoals almost with 140% more goals than expected... I do not expect Laine to be 3x better than average than the next best finisher in modern history.

Thanks for taking the time garret

There's still some unanswered questions and I guess we will find out next season
But %140 sounds like really good luck/odds
I've seen about maybe 3 or 4 with some odd bounces
There must be other variables involved with his higher expectations than just good luck
 

garret9

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Thanks for taking the time garret

There's still some unanswered questions and I guess we will find out next season
But %140 sounds like really good luck/odds
I've seen about maybe 3 or 4 with some odd bounces
There must be other variables involved with his higher expectations than just good luck

Statistical luck isn't really luck in the manner of "odd bounces".

Luck merely means that even with doing the right things, you should only expect a certain level of success over a long run. :)

It's saying you are not as good as your best game of golf or your worst game, even if their were no odd bounces in either.
 
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truck

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Thanks for taking the time garret

There's still some unanswered questions and I guess we will find out next season
But %140 sounds like really good luck/odds
I've seen about maybe 3 or 4 with some odd bounces
There must be other variables involved with his higher expectations than just good luck
Beyond bounces...

Player aims for the top left corner of the net:
Shot is on target. Scores.
Shot is on target. Goalie stops puck.
Shot off target. Goalie stop puck.
Shot off target. Scores. (But would have been stopped if shot on target.)

Shot misses wide. No goal.

There is additional luck in shot placement that won't be apparent without knowing the shooter's intended target. There is also a pile of potential variance in how often the player is on target.
 

buggs

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Statistical luck isn't really luck in the manner of "odd bounces".

Luck merely means that even with doing the right things, you should only expect a certain level of success over a long run. :)

It's saying you are not as good as your best game of golf or your worst game, even if their were no odd bounces in either.

You have to be good to be lucky. ;)
 

garret9

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Here's a WAR alternative breakdown on the Jets:
DGSL0EGUQAA9WW6.jpg:large


Methodology can be found on two most recent posts on Hockey-Graphs.com
 

WPGChief

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I haven't read the whole thing yet, unfortunately, but in a nutshell, what's the reasoning behind why Byfuglien's 16/17 season is rated considerably higher than Trouba's (in comparison to DTM's WAR/GAR and such)?

EDIT: I'm going to guess it's related to *points* above replacement versus *goals* above replacement and how they are attributed.
 

garret9

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I haven't read the whole thing yet, unfortunately, but in a nutshell, what's the reasoning behind why Byfuglien's 16/17 season is rated considerably higher than Trouba's (in comparison to DTM's WAR/GAR and such).

Short version:
EW's WPAA is more like Dom's Game Score or DTM's Boxscore Plus-Minus with Corsi added than it is like DTM's entire WAR.
For Byfuglien vs Trouba, I'd guess usage is the largest difference, perhaps shot quality too.


Long version:
EW's WPAA does not usage adjust. There is no adjustment for QoT, QoC, coach, schedule, or zone starts.
There is an adjustment to the shot differentials for score and venue.
The expected goals he uses in the model are Corsica's and not DTM's, which has been shown to be an inferior model and so therefore the WPAA model heavily uses relCorsi, which Byfuglien is better than Trouba at, although Trouba is better at XPM.
For the most part WPAA doesn't seem to like defensive players as much as GAR. It doesn't paint Chris Tanev, Hjalmmarsson, and Brodin as a very good player either.

Overall, WPAA uses:

"Offense"

Goals
Primary Assists
Secondary Assists
Shots on Goal
Individual Corsi (shots + blocked shots + missed shots)
Tango Shots (iCF - Shots on Goal) **
ixG (Corsica's model)
xFsh% (ixG / iFF)

"Defense"

Blocked Shots
Giveaways
Takeaways
Hits For
Hits Against

"Hybrid"

Relative CF/CA per 60 (score & venue adjusted, On Ice - Off Ice) ***
Relative xGF/xGA per 60 (score & venue adjusted, On Ice - Off Ice) ***
Relative GF/GA per 60 (score & venue adjusted, On Ice - Off Ice) ***
Relative goals, corsi, and xG (Corsica) differential/60 (i.e. rel CF60 - rel CA60) ***
 
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lanky

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Thanks for sharing and explaining garret.

Is DTM GAR data for 16-17 publicly available? I think I found his 15-16 document a while ago.
 
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