Injury Report: 2017/18 Puck off the Foot Report (Upshall out indefinitely)

[CCBC]

I'll come back in this thread after one month of played. Blues will be central div. 2nd last or dead last spot. If I'm wrong you guys can rip me half.

The Stoics said grief was the death of one's expectations. You must not witness much grief, huh?

Curious what you gain—aside from the avoidance of grief—that makes you negatively perceive every potential possibility?

 

[Stealth JD]

The Stoics said grief was the death of one's expectations. You must not witness much grief, huh?

Curious what you gain—aside from the avoidance of grief—that makes you negatively perceive every potential possibility?

Expect the least and you'll never be disappointed.

 

[Edgar Carrow]

Preseason stats don't mean anything. Most of the time, the team playing in front of you is full of guys that won't be on the team.

I never stated that preseason stats mean anything so I'm not sure how your response is relevant. Allen has looked bad in the games he has played in and it's not out of the ordinary for Allen to suck.

I'm not saying he will, I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he starts the season like he did last year.

 

[TruBlu]

I never stated that preseason stats mean anything so I'm not sure how your response is relevant. Allen has looked bad in the games he has played in and it's not out of the ordinary for Allen to suck.

I'm not saying he will, I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he starts the season like he did last year.

Jake actually started last season doing pretty well. It was in mid to late November, if I remember right, when he started to struggle. The team as a whole was struggling during that time. I remember several games where we'd score a goose egg, one, or two goals.

 

[Brian39]

Allen's preseason doesn't concern me at all. In the interest of fairness, I think that starting goalies get less out of preseason than any other position and there is little to no value in extrapolating preseason performance for goalies (outside prospects trying to make a name for themselves). I'm a goalie and when I played competitively any game that didn't count was used as an opportunity to focus on a specific aspect of my game. It makes you better when it counts, but there is a decent chance you aren't going to play well if you are consciously thinking about something instead of relying on instinct/habit like you should in a real game.

I don't know if Allen was working on something or if he just played like garbage. But either way, I really don't think it has any real impact on the games that matter.

With all of that said, he very well could start out the season poorly. Even if he is an above average starter this year, he is going to have a couple valleys. I don't think Allen will ever be a guy without his peaks and lows. The key to his success as an NHL starter is to limit the lows and bounce out of them quicker. Last year told me that he is mentally tough enough to step his game up when it is needed, so hopefully he is ready to embrace that tonight with a banged up lineup.

 

[bluesfan94]

Allen's preseason doesn't concern me at all. In the interest of fairness, I think that starting goalies get less out of preseason than any other position and there is little to no value in extrapolating preseason performance for goalies (outside prospects trying to make a name for themselves). I'm a goalie and when I played competitively any game that didn't count was used as an opportunity to focus on a specific aspect of my game. It makes you better when it counts, but there is a decent chance you aren't going to play well if you are consciously thinking about something instead of relying on instinct/habit like you should in a real game.

Essentially this. I don't think that preseason games mean much for starting goalies and the sky is falling narrative is odious before the season starts.

Allen has looked like ****; pretend the preseason games haven't happened all you want.

They happened, but see above. I'm not worried until it happens in the regular season. It's like pitchers in baseball. A lot of times in ST they're working on one pitch or one aspect and their numbers don't matter much

Did you read the entire post?
Also, Allen has only been one of the worst goalies in the preseason. It clearly means something, the organizations 2nd best center will be scratched because of it apparently.

Centers ≠ goalies. Plus, if your namesake was truly the 2nd best center, he would have, idk, shown enough to not be scratched. And yes, I read the entire post. I should have been more explicit that I was using the paragraph to open up the post more broadly than a direct response to you. Mea culpa.

I'll come back in this thread after one month of played. Blues will be central div. 2nd last or dead last spot. If I'm wrong you guys can rip me half.

Promise? I'd make an avatar bet but I'm pretty sure you've sold your soul eight other ways already.

 

[Evocable Manager]

Re

Essentially this. I don't think that preseason games mean much for starting goalies and the sky is falling narrative is odious before the season starts.


They happened, but see above. I'm not worried until it happens in the regular season. It's like pitchers in baseball. A lot of times in ST they're working on one pitch or one aspect and their numbers don't matter much


Centers ≠ goalies. Plus, if your namesake was truly the 2nd best center, he would have, idk, shown enough to not be scratched. And yes, I read the entire post. I should have been more explicit that I was using the paragraph to open up the post more broadly than a direct response to you. Mea culpa.


Promise? I'd make an avatar bet but I'm pretty sure you've sold your soul eight other ways already.

Except for us centers are even more valuable because our center core itself is already one of the weakest among playoff contending teams. The only team that is in worse shape is Montreal, but if their Drouin experiment works than we're in the worst shape down the middle. Scratching a center that has proven in regular season play that he can create offense and be effective defensively, playing on both special teams is not going to help us win hockey games.

Factoring in that one of our better forwards in Steen (when it comes to generating offense) is injured only makes the deployment of Barbashev more critical.

And yes, he is the 2nd best center in the organization. He's a hell of a lot better than Sundqvist, Brodziak and Schenn isn't even a center.

 

[AwesomeSince86]

Anecdotal evidence is pointless. I returned to college lacrosse at 6 months with no issues. No doctor is going to clear a player before they are ready and before the knee is structurally recovered. The risk of re-injury is always there, that's just the inherent risk with surgery.

This is not true. Countless studies have shown that ACL grafts take time to heal. No amount of rehab can make the graft as strong at 6 months as it will be at 12. You can only improve supporting muscle strength and range of motion.

 

[bleedblue1223]

This is not true. Countless studies have shown that ACL grafts take time to heal. No amount of rehab can make the graft as strong at 6 months as it will be at 12. You can only improve supporting muscle strength and range of motion.

What did I say was not true? What claim did I make that was false?

 

[AwesomeSince86]

What did I say was not true? What claim did I make that was false?

Doctors won't clear an athlete until the knee is structurally recovered. And insinuating that at 6 months your ACL was healed.

I wasn't calling you out. My point was just that any athlete you see returning to competition in under 9 months is doing so with a graft that isn't fully healed. As a professional athlete they have demands to return quicker (and doctors know that) and having better muscularity in supporting muscles limits the chances of re-injury. But no matter have much rehab they do, they graft is still not at 100% and is at a higher risk to fail.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Doctors won't clear an athlete until the knee is structurally recovered. And insinuating that at 6 months your ACL was healed.

I wasn't calling you out. My point was just that any athlete you see returning to competition in under 9 months is doing so with a graft that isn't fully healed. As a professional athlete they have demands to return quicker and having better muscularity in supporting muscles limits the chances of re-injury. But no matter have much rehab they do, they graft is still not at 100% and is at a higher risk to fail.

I agree that the more time you take to recover, the stronger you will make you knee, but I also completely disagree with your implication that these doctors and the team would send Fabbri out on the ice before his specific case was ready to go. That's my point.

My ACL was healed, and doctors are going to clear an athlete before the knee is ready. If they do, that's a doctor to never go to. But, like I said, anecdotal evidence like that is pointless, I brought my experience up just to highlight that.

Now, there are times where advice from the doctors is ignored, but in a scenario like this, it doesn't make any sense to ignore the advice of a doctor.

 

[Alklha]

Doctors won't clear an athlete until the knee is structurally recovered. And insinuating that at 6 months your ACL was healed.

I wasn't calling you out. My point was just that any athlete you see returning to competition in under 9 months is doing so with a graft that isn't fully healed. As a professional athlete they have demands to return quicker (and doctors know that) and having better muscularity in supporting muscles limits the chances of re-injury. But no matter have much rehab they do, they graft is still not at 100% and is at a higher risk to fail.

The average time for an NHL player to return to play from an ACL tear is just under 8 months. That means they were skating and cleared for contact significantly before that. You can argue that Fabbri was back fast, but he was right on the average. He would also have had multiple scans and physicals to make sure the knee was ready.

Could we have waited longer and reduced the chance of the injury reoccurring? Yes, but we are probably talking about taking a 3% chance down to a 1-2% chance.

People have lots of preconceptions about knee injuries because they are getting their information from across various sports. An ACL tear to an NFL linebacker is potentially career ending for a variety of reasons. An ACL tear to an NHL player is typically 7-9 months out and largely picking up where his career left off.

If people are wanting to attribute blame for the injury, then look at our own medical staff choosing not to take swelling in the knee seriously enough to get a scan done.

 

[AwesomeSince86]

I agree that the more time you take to recover, the stronger you will make you knee, but I also completely disagree with your implication that these doctors and the team would send Fabbri out on the ice before his specific case was ready to go. That's my point.

My ACL was healed, and doctors are going to clear an athlete before the knee is ready. If they do, that's a doctor to never go to. But, like I said, anecdotal evidence like that is pointless, I brought my experience up just to highlight that.

Now, there are times where advice from the doctors is ignored, but in a scenario like this, it doesn't make any sense to ignore the advice of a doctor.

I think we're in agreement in general, it's just the details where our opinions differ. I don't think the doctors sent him out there before he was ready, I'm saying because he's a professional athlete with a timetable they may have put him out there before the optimal time which increased his change at re-injury.

And regarding your ACL, I'm glad you didn't re-injure it at 6 months, but your graft wasn't 100% healed at that point. It's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Any medical study will tell you it takes an ACL graft 7-9 months at a minimum. It was obviously strong enough and your surrounding muscles were strong enough to support it, but the graft was definitely not as strong as it would've been at 8-9 months. How significantly stronger would it have been is the question.

The average time for an NHL player to return to play from an ACL tear is just under 8 months. That means they were skating and cleared for contact significantly before that. You can argue that Fabbri was back fast, but he was right on the average. He would also have had multiple scans and physicals to make sure the knee was ready.

Could we have waited longer and reduced the chance of the injury reoccurring? Yes, but we are probably talking about taking a 3% chance down to a 1-2% chance.

People have lots of preconceptions about knee injuries because they are getting their information from across various sports. An ACL tear to an NFL linebacker is potentially career ending for a variety of reasons. An ACL tear to an NHL player is typically 7-9 months out and largely picking up where his career left off.

If people are wanting to attribute blame for the injury, then look at our own medical staff choosing not to take swelling in the knee seriously enough to get a scan done.

I'm not blaming the doctors, I just think it's smarter to wait the additional 1-2 months to get to the optimal stage of graft recovery before returning to full contact.

I agree that chance of ACL re-injury is very sport specific. I did mine playing soccer which along with football have the highest chance of ACL injury. Hockey is better due to less abrupt change of directions as well as less friction between the foot and the ground.

The swelling issue not being taken seriously does surprise me. Something like a microfracture could still cause swelling significantly mid to long term but an ACL graft should cause swelling that long after surgery. That should have been an immediate red flag.

Does anyone know why he went with Bach for his surgeon? Not saying it has anything to do with it, but I thought the Wash U group was the typical Blues surgeons and physicians? One of the Blues physicians (Brophy) is the one that did my ACL and microfracture surgery.

 

[PiggySmalls]

I don’t get why folks are still arguing about recovery time. I watched Jumbo Joe play last night. He had torn both his ACL and MCL had surgery 2 months after Fabbri, is ~17 years older, much larger body and he looked good last night. Sports medicine isn’t my thing so I won’t make assumptions but I have to agree with Army. All signs point to it being a hockey injury and Fabbri was unfortunately part of the 3%.

 

[TruBlu]

That makes me worry about the future of Fabbri's career. Is this going to be something he is prone to? Even if he does recover, I'd have to guess there is probably a good chance he doesn't have that explosive burst and start/stop ability he has. I'm not sure how he fares without that, given his size.

 

[AwesomeSince86]

I wouldn't label Fabbri injury prone yet since ligament injuries tend to be fluke things. Now if was constantly missing due to different ailments or different muscular injuries I would say he's injury prone, but that hasn't been the case.

As far as losing his burst, I'd say it's fairly likely he loses some acceleration and speed, but how much is player dependent. I'd imagine the first year back from this second surgery he'll be noticeably slower because it takes time to re-learn how to move with the new knee. But the second season back should be the telling one on what to expect from him going forward.

 

[AwesomeSince86]

I don’t get why folks are still arguing about recovery time. I watched Jumbo Joe play last night. He had torn both his ACL and MCL had surgery 2 months after Fabbri, is ~17 years older, much larger body and he looked good last night. Sports medicine isn’t my thing so I won’t make assumptions but I have to agree with Army. All signs point to it being a hockey injury and Fabbri was unfortunately part of the 3%.

True, but Thornton is at the end of his career. He played for several weeks last season with both torn and by doing so likely did damage to his meniscus. He's just trying to squeeze out as many more years as possible. It's completely different than a guy that's just starting his career.

 

[Ranksu]

 

[Stealth JD]

Shouldn't this be "Fabbri/Stanford out ROS, Bergy-months, Steen/JBo-weeks"? Army made it sound like Mack Stanford would be out at least the regular season, maybe beyond.

 

[thigpen]

Shouldn't this be "Fabbri/Stanford out ROS, Bergy-months, Steen/JBo-weeks"? Army made it sound like Mack Stanford would be out at least the regular season, maybe beyond.

Can we dispense with the deliberate mangling of Sanford's name, already? It's gone on way too long, isn't funny anymore, and isn't fair to the guy to have his name the butt of jokes for several months now. Just sayin'.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

Can we dispense with the deliberate mangling of Sanford's name, already? It's gone on way too long, isn't funny anymore, and isn't fair to the guy to have his name the butt of jokes for several months now. Just sayin'.

Its still pretty funny to me. What makes Sanford the butt of the joke, and not the author of the mangled tweet at the trade deadline, if anyone is? Its just an inside joke on the forum, that has taken on an entertaining life of its own. Its no different than calling Tarasenko 'Frank'.

 

[BlueDream]

I wouldn't label Fabbri injury prone yet since ligament injuries tend to be fluke things. Now if was constantly missing due to different ailments or different muscular injuries I would say he's injury prone, but that hasn't been the case.

As far as losing his burst, I'd say it's fairly likely he loses some acceleration and speed, but how much is player dependent. I'd imagine the first year back from this second surgery he'll be noticeably slower because it takes time to re-learn how to move with the new knee. But the second season back should be the telling one on what to expect from him going forward.

Well that's wrong. He's had other injuries. In training camp in 2014 he got injured before being sent back to Juniors. He missed most of the WJC in 2015 with a high ankle sprain. He got a concussion as a rookie. And now two ACL injuries.

Anyone who is trying to convince themselves this guy isn't injury-proned is out to lunch. So far he's averaging multiple injuries per season and it's almost certainly going to take its toll and slow him down.

 

[BuLLeT1291]

Not our Blues, but did anyone else see Backes is out a month due to some bowel tract disease of some sort. Man I loved me some David Backes but that contract hasn’t looked good since the day they signed him to it. I’m glad we passed.

 

[KilmKostin]

Not our Blues, but did anyone else see Backes is out a month due to some bowel tract disease of some sort. Man I loved me some David Backes but that contract hasn’t looked good since the day they signed him to it. I’m glad we passed.

Very glad we let him walk. Great guy, but clearly a bad contract. 38 points last year, lowest total in 10 years. He'll be lucky to play 60 games this year.

Still three years with a cap hit of 6m after this season.

 

[Splatter]

To think it was just that one extra year that kept the Blues from resigning Backes. It would probably still be a bad deal. I appreciate everything he did as a Blue, but yeah. It was best to part ways.