World Cup: 2016 World Cup — Team Canada (Part II)

[JTD]

I think that Muzzin is getting recognition that he deserves. He's damn great defenseman and one of the most underrated defenseman in the NHL, imo. He scored 40 points in 2 consecutive seasons, he's rock solid defensively, LHD, and did not refuse to join the WHC team.

Subban and Letang are better than him, but they are also RHD, and unfortunately for them, Canada is trying to build the team, not absolute all-star roster although I would prefer them to build the team from BPA because I don't really care about the results in this tournament. But I can see why they went with Muzzin, he fits to Canada's defensive structure and I can imagine that Babcock really wanted him on his roster.

I would prefer either Subban or Letang over Pietrangelo.

Both Letang and Subban are better than Pietrangelo and Weber. They could have had Doughty, Burns, Subban and Letang as their 4 RH d men. That would make too much sense though, apparently

 

[TT1]

Both Letang and Subban are better than Pietrangelo and Weber. They could have had Doughty, Burns, Subban and Letang as their 4 RH d men. That would make too much sense though, apparently

Weber gets picked due to his reputation (pretty sure everyone saw how poorly he played in the playoffs), Pie got picked because he played for us in the Olympics and his GM is TC's GM, obvious choice. Standard TC politics.

 

[Regal]

Both Letang and Subban are better than Pietrangelo and Weber. They could have had Doughty, Burns, Subban and Letang as their 4 RH d men. That would make too much sense though, apparently

It's not always just taking the "best" players though. You have to look at what they're strengths and weaknesses are. Letang and Subban are both excellent puck movers which is part of what puts them ahead of Weber for some. But this is more valuable on an NHL team of lesser players where they can make up for their teammates deficiencies. On Team Canada, everyone can move the puck, which makes Weber's worse transition game less of a negative. Canada should have no problem getting out of their zone and setting up in the offensive zone, which is where Weber's at his best. He has by far the best point shot on the team, which is hugely valuable in a tournament where goals will likely be at a premium.

As well, Canada's MO recently has always been about playing it safe. Playing a perfect defensive game, and letting the offense come. While Subban and Letang are no slouches defensively, they're not as good in their own zone as Pie and Weber. They may be similar or better shot suppressors, but again this comes from their transition games which is less valuable on an all star team like this. With that style of play also comes more turnovers and odd man rushes, which balances out over a season or most 7 game playoff series'. In single game elimination, these can be far more backbreaking.

 

[Voight]

People need to realize Babcock likes playing LD-RD.... it was going to be very hard for Subban/Letang to make it with how stacked our RD is.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Muzzin over Giordano is Kunitz over Giroux/MSL bad. Whatever keeps Dooty happy I guess. That pairing failed to shut down the Sharks, can't wait to watch Russia blow em up for 3 goals.

 

[Pandaman11]

Muzzin over Giordano is Kunitz over Giroux/MSL bad. Whatever keeps Dooty happy I guess. That pairing failed to shut down the Sharks, can't wait to watch Russia blow em up for 3 goals.

I neither knew that Muzzin & Doughty started playing hockey in May of 2016, nor that Canada & Russia are in the same group, nor that Weber or Pietrangelo shut down the Sharks. Very interesting.

Also, as far as I remember, Kunitz scored in the Olympic final, won gold, and MSL was his teammate, so I also didn't know you could do better than gold.

 

[TT1]

People need to realize Babcock likes playing LD-RD.... it was going to be very hard for Subban/Letang to make it with how stacked our RD is.

no one is arguing that, Pie shouldnt get picked ahead of Subban if we're factoring in defensive play tho, the numbers dont lie.

Muzzin was picked because he played/plays with Doughty, he'll probably be paired with him, everyone understands that.

 

[Limekiller]

Overall pretty decent and very deep but very puzzled with Thornton instead of Hall or O'Reilly

Perhaps because he is one of the best centers in the NHL? Who had more points this year than any other center besides Crosby? Who had the most assists in the NHL by anyone not named Erik Karlsson? Because he is an outstanding 2-way player and a beast defensively as well as offensively?

I mean, seriously. He outscored Tavares by 12, Getzlaf by 19 points, and Toews by 24 points, which are not inconsequential numbers. Hell, Thornton was tied for 4th in scoring in the NHL, tied with the aforementioned Erik Karlsson. Tavares was tied for 16th, Getzlaf tied for 28th, and Toews was tied for 51st. Thornton also was a +25 on the year, (good for 11th in the league) and is one of the best possession players in the NHL.

Oh and yeah, one more thing: maybe the fact that he's the primary setup man for the most lethal powerplay in hockey (at least in these playoffs), and has an obvious rapport with Burns (who one assumes will be on at least one of the power play units) also has something to do with him getting picked?

So, why again should he not have been picked, or have one of those 3 start ahead of him at center?

 

[SharksCyclops]

It's not always just taking the "best" players though. You have to look at what they're strengths and weaknesses are. Letang and Subban are both excellent puck movers which is part of what puts them ahead of Weber for some. But this is more valuable on an NHL team of lesser players where they can make up for their teammates deficiencies. On Team Canada, everyone can move the puck, which makes Weber's worse transition game less of a negative. Canada should have no problem getting out of their zone and setting up in the offensive zone, which is where Weber's at his best. He has by far the best point shot on the team, which is hugely valuable in a tournament where goals will likely be at a premium.

As well, Canada's MO recently has always been about playing it safe. Playing a perfect defensive game, and letting the offense come. While Subban and Letang are no slouches defensively, they're not as good in their own zone as Pie and Weber. They may be similar or better shot suppressors, but again this comes from their transition games which is less valuable on an all star team like this. With that style of play also comes more turnovers and odd man rushes, which balances out over a season or most 7 game playoff series'. In single game elimination, these can be far more backbreaking.

This makes the decision less perplexing for me, thank you.

 

[PecnoTrunk]

I think tha muzzin was also brought in for his size

Weber burns muzzin are really big

The other defence are pretty big

This is done too break up the cycle game the americans will try to bring in

Im just a little worried about the transition game

Most of the defence has a great transition game but how is transition for
Muzzin?
Vlasic?
Burns?

Also i think our forwards are very defensive oriented

I hope we dont have problems scoring, like we did in sochi

Hi All

Can anyone who knows the answer to my transition question above?

Thanks in advance

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

Team Canada went from

Niedermayer
Pronger
Keith

In 2010 on the left side to what they have now.

Canada isn't producing elite world beating left hand defensemen anymore, or that was a Golden Age that will never be matched. There's not even elite prospects for Canada on the left side. Muzzin, Giordano, are names talked about, I mean okay players, but the standard has definitely gone way down on that side of the spectrum for left shot dmen compare to right shot dmen.

 

[Budddy]

Perhaps because he is one of the best centers in the NHL? Who had more points this year than any other center besides Crosby? Who had the most assists in the NHL by anyone not named Erik Karlsson? Because he is an outstanding 2-way player and a beast defensively as well as offensively?

I mean, seriously. He outscored Tavares by 12, Getzlaf by 19 points, and Toews by 24 points, which are not inconsequential numbers. Hell, Thornton was tied for 4th in scoring in the NHL, tied with the aforementioned Erik Karlsson. Tavares was tied for 16th, Getzlaf tied for 28th, and Toews was tied for 51st. Thornton also was a +25 on the year, (good for 11th in the league) and is one of the best possession players in the NHL.

Oh and yeah, one more thing: maybe the fact that he's the primary setup man for the most lethal powerplay in hockey (at least in these playoffs), and has an obvious rapport with Burns (who one assumes will be on at least one of the power play units) also has something to do with him getting picked?

So, why again should he not have been picked, or have one of those 3 start ahead of him at center?

Defensive much? Lol

Wasn't a slight against Thornton...I think Hall is over him as a natural winger, play with Team Canada plus a better skater and I think O'Reilly simply deserves it more.

And I don't think Getzlaf deserved it either, but that pick was already done

 

[Regal]

Perhaps because he is one of the best centers in the NHL? Who had more points this year than any other center besides Crosby? Who had the most assists in the NHL by anyone not named Erik Karlsson? Because he is an outstanding 2-way player and a beast defensively as well as offensively?

I mean, seriously. He outscored Tavares by 12, Getzlaf by 19 points, and Toews by 24 points, which are not inconsequential numbers. Hell, Thornton was tied for 4th in scoring in the NHL, tied with the aforementioned Erik Karlsson. Tavares was tied for 16th, Getzlaf tied for 28th, and Toews was tied for 51st. Thornton also was a +25 on the year, (good for 11th in the league) and is one of the best possession players in the NHL.

Oh and yeah, one more thing: maybe the fact that he's the primary setup man for the most lethal powerplay in hockey (at least in these playoffs), and has an obvious rapport with Burns (who one assumes will be on at least one of the power play units) also has something to do with him getting picked?

So, why again should he not have been picked, or have one of those 3 start ahead of him at center?

As the other guy said, it's more about who was originally chosen. You already have Crosby, Getzlaf and Toews who don't make sense on the wing, and Thornton doesn't either, so that means Tavares likely moves over which could be ok but probably isn't ideal. And you already have Giroux, Stamkos, Carter and Duchene all as natural centers moving to wing. Usually the extra guys are more versatile and can play multiple positions up and down the lineup. I guess they figured Thornton is playing too well to pass up, and if they had a full roster redo, they probably leave out Getzlaf and have Thornton take the big play making center role, especially since they didn't take Perry, but he seems a little redundant with what they had already selected.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Muzzin over Giordano is Kunitz over Giroux/MSL bad. Whatever keeps Dooty happy I guess. That pairing failed to shut down the Sharks, can't wait to watch Russia blow em up for 3 goals.

Muzzin and Doughty were not a pairing for the vast majority of the season, that was one of the biggest problems--Doughty was dragging around the corpse of Rob Scuderi and Muzzin Luke Schenn. They played together literally less than 10% of Doughty's minutes in the playoffs And EVERYONE thus far has been outmatched by the Sharks. And funny enough while it was Doughty's worst hockey of his career, pretty much everyone that watched called Muzzin LA's best player...

I guess if you completely ignore historical performance via stats and the eye test and use the outlier series to judge players though...

Muzzin is clearly getting grossly underrated now and I'm glad this will be a good coming out party for him. I DO think Brodie and Gio are 'better,' but not grossly as is the suggestion, and apparently Muzzin's loyalty and consistency is being rewarded. I just think it's hilarious to watch the groupthink trashtalk Doughty all year because apparently Muzzin is the real pulse behind LA, then when Muzzin is selected for an honorable position based on performance, everyone turns around and trashtalks Muzzin...

 

[Mass]

Weber gets picked due to his reputation (pretty sure everyone saw how poorly he played in the playoffs), Pie got picked because he played for us in the Olympics and his GM is TC's GM, obvious choice. Standard TC politics.

Naturally the narrative has gone from one poor game to a poor series, to a poor playoffs

 

[Limekiller]

Muzzin and Doughty were not a pairing for the vast majority of the season, that was one of the biggest problems--Doughty was dragging around the corpse of Rob Scuderi and Muzzin Luke Schenn. They played together literally less than 10% of Doughty's minutes in the playoffs And EVERYONE thus far has been outmatched by the Sharks. And funny enough while it was Doughty's worst hockey of his career, pretty much everyone that watched called Muzzin LA's best player...

I guess if you completely ignore historical performance via stats and the eye test and use the outlier series to judge players though...

Muzzin is clearly getting grossly underrated now and I'm glad this will be a good coming out party for him. I DO think Brodie and Gio are 'better,' but not grossly as is the suggestion, and apparently Muzzin's loyalty and consistency is being rewarded. I just think it's hilarious to watch the groupthink trashtalk Doughty all year because apparently Muzzin is the real pulse behind LA, then when Muzzin is selected for an honorable position based on performance, everyone turns around and trashtalks Muzzin...

Honestly, I doubt they even pair Doughty with Muzzin. The Vlasic/Doughty pairing was just too insanely good at Sochi for them not to be planning on reuniting them. Gods, can you imagine those two as a pairing on a normal NHL team? /drool. How about you Kings guys do us a solid and trade us Doughty, so we can do that? You wouldn't mind, right?

 

[Limekiller]

Naturally the narrative has gone from one poor game to a poor series, to a poor playoffs

Not that I disagree with your overall premise, because I agree that anyone calling Weber washed up is probably several french fries short of a happy meal. But, against the Sharks it was more than just one bad game. He really didn't have a very good overall series, either. (neither did Josi, really). I thought your best D pairing vs us was Ekholm/Ellis. Like I said in the series thread: Weber was by no means terrible, but his play certainly wasn't at a level you'd expect from someone who is regularly in the conversation of "Best D-man in the NHL".

On the other hand, The Sharks managed to make Doughty look bad in that series, and Pietrangelo not look very good in THAT series, so I suspect the play of the Sharks might have something to do with why Weber didn't look very good in OUR series.

 

[tade]

Muzzin and Doughty were not a pairing for the vast majority of the season, that was one of the biggest problems--Doughty was dragging around the corpse of Rob Scuderi and Muzzin Luke Schenn. They played together literally less than 10% of Doughty's minutes in the playoffs And EVERYONE thus far has been outmatched by the Sharks. And funny enough while it was Doughty's worst hockey of his career, pretty much everyone that watched called Muzzin LA's best player...

I guess if you completely ignore historical performance via stats and the eye test and use the outlier series to judge players though...

Muzzin is clearly getting grossly underrated now and I'm glad this will be a good coming out party for him. I DO think Brodie and Gio are 'better,' but not grossly as is the suggestion, and apparently Muzzin's loyalty and consistency is being rewarded. I just think it's hilarious to watch the groupthink trashtalk Doughty all year because apparently Muzzin is the real pulse behind LA, then when Muzzin is selected for an honorable position based on performance, everyone turns around and trashtalks Muzzin...

Fully agree, and obviously I am not the Kings fan, but I can appreciate how great and underrated defenseman Muzzin is. He is definitely deserving his spot on this team over Giordano and Brodie. While we know that he's very good defensively, it is not like he's slouch offensively (with two 40-point seasons).

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Absolutely disgusting and embarrassing that subban didn't make the team I have no idea how they can justify that decision

He's easily not as good as the RHD picked ahead of him. Pretty simple.

 

[Scotty B]

It's not always just taking the "best" players though. You have to look at what they're strengths and weaknesses are. Letang and Subban are both excellent puck movers which is part of what puts them ahead of Weber for some. But this is more valuable on an NHL team of lesser players where they can make up for their teammates deficiencies. On Team Canada, everyone can move the puck, which makes Weber's worse transition game less of a negative. Canada should have no problem getting out of their zone and setting up in the offensive zone, which is where Weber's at his best. He has by far the best point shot on the team, which is hugely valuable in a tournament where goals will likely be at a premium.

As well, Canada's MO recently has always been about playing it safe. Playing a perfect defensive game, and letting the offense come. While Subban and Letang are no slouches defensively, they're not as good in their own zone as Pie and Weber. They may be similar or better shot suppressors, but again this comes from their transition games which is less valuable on an all star team like this. With that style of play also comes more turnovers and odd man rushes, which balances out over a season or most 7 game playoff series'. In single game elimination, these can be far more backbreaking.

I wouldn't say ' playing it safe'. Euro teams sit back, clog the neutral zone, play kitty bar the door, eagerly pouncing on their opponents mistakes, relying on quick transition and outnumbered rushes for much of their offense.

Canada's game is predicated on rapid puck movement, dumping and chasing, keeping the puck hemmed deep --- our D pinch very aggressively inside the blue -- and dominating possession in all three zones...

Canada's A team has the luxury of rolling 4 lines. They keep their shifts short and hit their opponents with wave after wave, at a pace they cannot match, in the long run, since most other teams are more top heavy/ talent thin...

We didn't play it safe in Sochi. We took the game to our opponents at every opportunity. Both time of possession, and shots for and against( which were heavily weighted in Canada's favor ) were telling...

 

[Shockmaster]

Both Letang and Subban are better than Pietrangelo and Weber. They could have had Doughty, Burns, Subban and Letang as their 4 RH d men. That would make too much sense though, apparently

Weber and Pietrangelo get more excuses made on their behalf than Letang and Subban do when they falter. Like it or not, there are double-standards for certain players.

 

[Scotty B]

Perhaps because he is one of the best centers in the NHL? Who had more points this year than any other center besides Crosby? Who had the most assists in the NHL by anyone not named Erik Karlsson? Because he is an outstanding 2-way player and a beast defensively as well as offensively?

I mean, seriously. He outscored Tavares by 12, Getzlaf by 19 points, and Toews by 24 points, which are not inconsequential numbers. Hell, Thornton was tied for 4th in scoring in the NHL, tied with the aforementioned Erik Karlsson. Tavares was tied for 16th, Getzlaf tied for 28th, and Toews was tied for 51st. Thornton also was a +25 on the year, (good for 11th in the league) and is one of the best possession players in the NHL.

Oh and yeah, one more thing: maybe the fact that he's the primary setup man for the most lethal powerplay in hockey (at least in these playoffs), and has an obvious rapport with Burns (who one assumes will be on at least one of the power play units) also has something to do with him getting picked?

So, why again should he not have been picked, or have one of those 3 start ahead of him at center?

Because we had a plethora of natural centers picked already, including guys who really wouldn't be comfortable/don't make sense playing wing... picking a guy like Hall, a natural left winger and excellent skater , who has already demonstrated great chemistry with Crosby ( someone we had trouble finding suitable line mates for in the past ) woulda been a helluva lot smarter/ better, especially for the frenetic pace TC prefers to play at

Thornton will be 37 friggen years old... largely superfluous at center...And Much better suited to be sitting at home, beer in hand, watching on TV

 

[Habsawce]

People need to realize Babcock likes playing LD-RD.... it was going to be very hard for Subban/Letang to make it with how stacked our RD is.

Except Subban and Letang are both better than Weber and Pietrangelo. Doughty is arguable, but probably on par with Subban and better than Letang.

So realistically a player like Subban is a better all around defenseman than everyone on the team but 2 players doesn't make it because? Probably the same reason his idiot GM and coach don't stand up for him.

 

[Stopsight]

Except Subban and Letang are both better than Weber and Pietrangelo. Doughty is arguable, but probably on par with Subban and better than Letang.

So realistically a player like Subban is a better all around defenseman than everyone on the team but 2 players doesn't make it because? Probably the same reason his idiot GM and coach don't stand up for him.

Not realistic to anyone outside of habsland

 

[Scotty B]

Defensive much? Lol

Wasn't a slight against Thornton...I think Hall is over him as a natural winger, play with Team Canada plus a better skater and I think O'Reilly simply deserves it more.

And I don't think Getzlaf deserved it either, but that pick was already done

Agreed. Especially since Perry wasn't one of the last 7 picked either. I mean, many would argue that its Getzlaf + Perry or neither. Alas, TC's brain-trust wasn't allowed any eraser/ do overs...Moreover, by adding Thornton they only compounded their earlier mistake.

Ideally, you can pick Thornton, you can pick Getzlaf, but picking both for the same team, seems patently stupid imo