2016 ATD Lineup Advice Thread

Iceman

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A training camp decision that coach Demers will have to make:

Could Craig Hartsburg or Craig Ludwig steal a starting-six job from Randy Carlyle ?

One of those three would play alongside Jean-Guy Talbot on the third pairing.


Not really. Ludwig is a nice pickup if you want some more physicality that Carlyle doesn't bring... but then again, your defense is probably the least in need of more physicality (whatever much of that Ludwig could possibly bring) so you should probably keep it as it is with Carlyle and Talbot.

Can you improve your special teams by swapping in and out dmen of the bottom pairing?
 

Johnny Engine

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What's the ideal way to use Babe Siebert? I've got him on the first pairing with Vasiliev, and since VV doesn't get any powerplay time, if I use Siebert in more than one special teams scenario at all, he ends up leading my team in ice time by a mile. How should I address this?
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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What's the ideal way to use Babe Siebert? I've got him on the first pairing with Vasiliev, and since VV doesn't get any powerplay time, if I use Siebert in more than one special teams scenario at all, he ends up leading my team in ice time by a mile. How should I address this?

Somebody has to lead in ice time. Just put guys where they belong on your roster.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Somebody has to lead in ice time. Just put guys where they belong on your roster.

Yeah, but Babe Siebert probably shouldn't be getting #1 minutes across the board. In the past, I've used him on the 2nd pairing at even strength so I can use him on both special teams. Not sure if that's an option for JE.
 

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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Yeah, but Babe Siebert probably shouldn't be getting #1 minutes across the board. In the past, I've used him on the 2nd pairing at even strength so I can use him on both special teams. Not sure if that's an option for JE.

It might be an option. The R-L balance on my defense does lend itself to moving around the guys who are getting special teams time.

Considering:

Art Ross - Valeri Vasiliev
Babe Siebert - Jiri Bubla
Gary Bergman - Red Horner

Horner is also bumped down for the same reason: he has a bit in common with a guy like Kevin Hatcher, if not quite as notorious for big brain fart moments.
 

ImporterExporter

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Kicking around these two options:

Ovechkin-Messier-Recchi
Smokey Harris-Bowie-Ernie Russell
Pavelich-Walsh-Curry
Alexandrov-McGee-Loktev

or

Ovechkin-Messier-Recchi
Alexandrov-Bowie-Loktev
Pavelich-Walsh-Curry
Harris-McGee-Russell

As my bio on Alexandrov will show, i don't see any gap at all between he and Starshinov (a consistent ATD top 6 F) and Loktev has been quite underrated as well up until the revelations from the European Top Hockey Player project.

I'm leaning towards putting the Russians up on the 2nd line with Bowie. Bowie was a puck dominant player, but in the early 1900's you hear about combination work a lot. And Loktev was more of a play maker when you read his bio as well with Alexandrov being balanced. Loktev also brings strong grit, corner work and was known for his relentless work up and down the ice. All 3 players understand the puck possession game and of course you get the added bonus of the Alexandrov-Loktev connection from real life. Bowie was quite able to make plays if you put stock into the re-constructed assist project and some of the quotes that are in newspapers from game reports.

Plus the, 4th line is probably still well above the norm for a scoring 4th line with Harris, McGee, and Russell. Getting that line against 2nd and even 3rd pairings should work to my favor in many match ups.

Thoughts?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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It might be an option. The R-L balance on my defense does lend itself to moving around the guys who are getting special teams time.

Considering:

Art Ross - Valeri Vasiliev
Babe Siebert - Jiri Bubla
Gary Bergman - Red Horner

Horner is also bumped down for the same reason: he has a bit in common with a guy like Kevin Hatcher, if not quite as notorious for big brain fart moments.

Is Bubla good enough for top 4 duty?
 

jarek

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Aug 15, 2009
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Kicking around these two options:

Ovechkin-Messier-Recchi
Smokey Harris-Bowie-Ernie Russell
Pavelich-Walsh-Curry
Alexandrov-McGee-Loktev

or

Ovechkin-Messier-Recchi
Alexandrov-Bowie-Loktev
Pavelich-Walsh-Curry
Harris-McGee-Russell

As my bio on Alexandrov will show, i don't see any gap at all between he and Starshinov (a consistent ATD top 6 F) and Loktev has been quite underrated as well up until the revelations from the European Top Hockey Player project.

I'm leaning towards putting the Russians up on the 2nd line with Bowie. Bowie was a puck dominant player, but in the early 1900's you hear about combination work a lot. And Loktev was more of a play maker when you read his bio as well with Alexandrov being balanced. Loktev also brings strong grit, corner work and was known for his relentless work up and down the ice. All 3 players understand the puck possession game and of course you get the added bonus of the Alexandrov-Loktev connection from real life. Bowie was quite able to make plays if you put stock into the re-constructed assist project and some of the quotes that are in newspapers from game reports.

Plus the, 4th line is probably still well above the norm for a scoring 4th line with Harris, McGee, and Russell. Getting that line against 2nd and even 3rd pairings should work to my favor in many match ups.

Thoughts?

Alexandrov-Bowie-Loktev

Might be one of the worst lines defensively in the draft as far as I can tell. None of those players bring any defensive game that I am aware of and they aren't good enough offensively to really dominate the play against the units they'd typically be out against.
 

ImporterExporter

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Alexandrov-Bowie-Loktev

Might be one of the worst lines defensively in the draft as far as I can tell. None of those players bring any defensive game that I am aware of and they aren't good enough offensively to really dominate the play against the units they'd typically be out against.

Well if you agree that Alexandrov is at least slightly better than Starshinov in an all time sense (read my entire bio and it's almost impossible to argue otherwise) and you take credence in the fact that his domestic scoring totals and per game % was even better than Firsov (they are), I'd say that Benny is a pretty damn good 2nd line offensive player.

Bowie, again, offensively speaking is one of the better 2nd line scoring options as a C. A Vs2 look inside how dominant he was among his peers puts him at 141.7 over his best 7 years, and when considering the average length of career was much shorter over the first 2 decades of the 1900's, stands as quite an insane average. Obviously context matters, and 1900 to 1908 is not the same as even 1910 to 1920 but even if you want to look at Bowie's 3 toughest years in terms of competition with Vs2, he scored 100 (06 ECHA) 100 (07 ECHA) and 111 (08 ECHA), where he was likely past his prime for that era of hockey, aged 26-28.

And there is no damning evidence that the Russians, or Bowie are poor defensive players. In fact Loktev was praised multiple times, for his work without the puck (bio) while playing an unusually selfless and physical game. I'd say Alexandrov is the weakest (and that is based on one single quote in his bio) but none of them should be confused with Bill Cowley ;)

I think the gap between Yakushev and Alexandrov is quite smaller than people realize and Alexandrov is better than Starshinov in an all time sense. Both of those guys are consistent 1st or 2nd line players, ever year in the ATD.
 

jarek

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Well if you agree that Alexandrov is at least slightly better than Starshinov in an all time sense (read my entire bio and it's almost impossible to argue otherwise) and you take credence in the fact that his domestic scoring totals and per game % was even better than Firsov (they are), I'd say that Benny is a pretty damn good 2nd line offensive player.

Bowie, again, offensively speaking is one of the better 2nd line scoring options as a C. A Vs2 look inside how dominant he was among his peers puts him at 141.7 over his best 7 years, and when considering the average length of career was much shorter over the first 2 decades of the 1900's, stands as quite an insane average. Obviously context matters, and 1900 to 1908 is not the same as even 1910 to 1920 but even if you want to look at Bowie's 3 toughest years in terms of competition with Vs2, he scored 100 (06 ECHA) 100 (07 ECHA) and 111 (08 ECHA), where he was likely past his prime for that era of hockey, aged 26-28.

And there is no damning evidence that the Russians, or Bowie are poor defensive players. In fact Loktev was praised multiple times, for his work without the puck (bio) while playing an unusually selfless and physical game. I'd say Alexandrov is the weakest (and that is based on one single quote in his bio) but none of them should be confused with Bill Cowley ;)

I think the gap between Yakushev and Alexandrov is quite smaller than people realize and Alexandrov is better than Starshinov in an all time sense. Both of those guys are consistent 1st or 2nd line players, ever year in the ATD.

I don't think you should be using where guys are used in the ATD to make your case..

Alexandrov and Loktev were ranked 28th and 39th, respectively, in the HOH Euros project. Even if you isolate that among just wingers, they are 11th and 15th. The 8th ranked winger in the Euros project, Helmuts Balderis, was ranked 54th in the HOH wingers project. This is obviously an extremely crude comparison (and notably before the great info about these guys came out via Sturm), but that means, at least in the last published record of a top wingers list, Alexandrov and Loktev would be, at best, 55th or lower. This would put them at a level of bad 2nd line wingers here.

So, in an updated view, how high should these guys be ranked among wingers? In order for them to even be respectable among 2nd line wingers, they'd need to be at least on par with Sweeney Schriner, for example. Are they as good or better than a guy like Schriner?

Yes, your guys are definitely underrated, but I really don't know if they're anything better than bottom of the barrel 2nd liners here. Even Bowie, while like you said a good offensive player, would still be pretty low on the list of centers drafted in a scoring role in this draft. There's a reason he falls as far as he does.

I'm happy to have my mind changed on this, but for now, that's where I'm at.
 

ResilientBeast

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I don't think you should be using where guys are used in the ATD to make your case..

Alexandrov and Loktev were ranked 28th and 39th, respectively, in the HOH Euros project. Even if you isolate that among just wingers, they are 11th and 15th. The 8th ranked winger in the Euros project, Helmuts Balderis, was ranked 54th in the HOH wingers project. This is obviously an extremely crude comparison (and notably before the great info about these guys came out via Sturm), but that means, at least in the last published record of a top wingers list, Alexandrov and Loktev would be, at best, 55th or lower. This would put them at a level of bad 2nd line wingers here.

So, in an updated view, how high should these guys be ranked among wingers? In order for them to even be respectable among 2nd line wingers, they'd need to be at least on par with Sweeney Schriner, for example. Are they as good or better than a guy like Schriner?

Yes, your guys are definitely underrated, but I really don't know if they're anything better than bottom of the barrel 2nd liners here. Even Bowie, while like you said a good offensive player, would still be pretty low on the list of centers drafted in a scoring role in this draft. There's a reason he falls as far as he does.

I'm happy to have my mind changed on this, but for now, that's where I'm at.

100% agree sorry 87and71 I have a hard time buying those two as top 6 wingers
 

monster_bertuzzi

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So, in an updated view, how high should these guys be ranked among wingers? In order for them to even be respectable among 2nd line wingers, they'd need to be at least on par with Sweeney Schriner, for example. Are they as good or better than a guy like Schriner?

?!? Schriner is a first line player with a VS score of 91.8. He is a quality first line ATD player.
 

monster_bertuzzi

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Fine, Schriner was a bad example to use. It does not change my point.

I'm not disagreeing that 87 has serious problems on line #2 (thats the price you pay by ignoring your second line in favour of bottom pairing defenseman), but using a stud like Schriner as a benchmark for second line wingers was, strange.
 

jarek

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I'm not disagreeing that 87 has serious problems on line #2 (thats the price you pay by ignoring your second line in favour of bottom pairing defenseman), but using a stud like Schriner as a benchmark for second line wingers was, strange.

I used that example forgetting that those player ranks were among all wingers, not just wingers at their respective positions.
 

monster_bertuzzi

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I was also going to chime in and say Schriner is easily a first line player, not a "decent second liner".

I think the most underrated/unknown thing about Schriner is how much better his playoff performances got when he got to Toronto, and left an inept NHL team in the New York Americans. The guy won two cups, and was a huge part both of them for the Leafs.
 

BenchBrawl

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Yeah not to boost my own player more than it's permitted, but it was a very poor choice to compare him to 2nd liners.

Schriner was soft and brings nothing but offense.But that's fine.That's mostly what 1st lines are there for.He is one of the best offensive LWer in the league, so of course he's a 1st liner.
 

Rob Scuderi

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Yeah not to boost my own player more than it's permitted, but it was a very poor choice to compare him to 2nd liners.

Schriner was soft and brings nothing but offense.But that's fine.That's mostly what 1st lines are there for.He is one of the best offensive LWer in the league, so of course he's a 1st liner.

I'm still not sure if Schriner was soft as much as lazy and no good defensively.

Either way, yeah he's a great offensive talent. I'd draft him every year if I could.
 

monster_bertuzzi

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Anatoli Firsov - Alex Delvecchio (C) - Jaromir Jagr (A)
Cy Denneny - Doug Weight - Theoren Fleury
Adam Graves - Russell Bowie - John Pie Mckenzie
Simon Gagne - Walt Tkaczuk - Floyd Curry



^What do people think?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Anatoli Firsov - Alex Delvecchio (C) - Jaromir Jagr (A)
Cy Denneny - Doug Weight - Theoren Fleury
Adam Graves - Russell Bowie - John Pie Mckenzie
Simon Gagne - Walt Tkaczuk - Floyd Curry



^What do people think?

Delvecchio line - awesome, as close to a perfect Jagr line as you can get.
Weight line - weakest 2nd line center in the draft? Other than that, good offensive chemistry, though I'm uncertain about Weight as the defensive conscience of an Atd line
Bowie line - who is getting Bowie the puck?
Tkaczuk line - Good two-way defensive line, are they going to take all the defensive assignments for the team?
 

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