Prospect Info: 2015-16 Calgary Flames Prospect Stats & Discussion Thread (CHL, NCAA & Europe)

[Johnny Hoxville]

Well said Stew, I mean Ace.

 

[TkachuckNotTkaczuk]

Stastny was a 2nd round pick IIRC. Unless you're talking one of the old-school Stastnys.

You've listed about 15 players out of how many thousands? Sure it happens, but it hardly happens as often as you may hope.

Mangiapane (who I don't think 100TG hates per se) is still a project and still a while away from being considered a blue chip, can't miss prospect. For me, all it tells me is that it wasn't a wasted pick and there is potential there, but he's still a long way from being an NHL player.

But I never once said he is a sure fire prospect. All I said and voted was that I think he is a better prospect than Kulak. It is not a slight to Kulak but I just like Mangiapane more as a prospect, he has more upside with his skill imo. And that is my opinion. What I don't like(and is insulting) is someone telling my that my opinion should be disrepected and that whoever voted for him clearly know nothing about him.

List of undrafted NHL players. And this doesn't include all the guys who have been 6th rounders and up.


Adams, Greg
Ahola, Peter
Avery, Sean
Backstrom, Niklas
Bartecko, Lubos
Belfour, Ed
Bergeron, Marc-Andre
Blake, Jason
Bouillon, Francis
Bourque, Rene
Boyle, Dan
Bozak, Tyler
Brashear, Donald
Brathwaite, Fred
Brookbank, Sheldon
Brookbank, Wade
Brooks, Alex
Brown, Doug
Burrows, Alexandre
Campbell, Darcy
Carter, Ryan
Casey, Jon
Charron, Guy
Clarkson, David
Classen, Greg
Colley, Kevin
Collins, Rob
Conklin, Ty
Conner, Chris
Corazzini, Carl
Cote, Riley
Coulombe, Patrick
Courtnall, Geoff
Cowan, Jeff
Cullen, Mark
Dahlquist, Chris
Delmore, Andy
Dubielewicz, Wade
Duchesne, Steve
Dupuis, Pascal
Eaton, Mark
Ellis, Matt
Fairbairn, Bill
Fedotenko, Ruslan
Fiddler, Vernon
Fortier, Marc
Frycer, Miroslav
Gilroy, Matt
Giordano, Mark
Girardi, Daniel
Glencross, Curtis
Glumac, Mike
Godard, Eric
Gorges, Josh
Greene, Andy
Green, Mike
Gretzky, Wayne
Gustavsson, Jonas
Halpern, Jeff
Hamilton, Jeff
Hanson, Christian
Healy, Glenn
Hedberg, Anders
Hicke, Ernie
Hodson, Kevin
Ivanans, Raitis
Jennings, Grant
Johnson, Mike
Jones, Randy
Joseph, Curtis
Kariya, Steve
Keane, Mike
Kerr, Tim
Kisio, Kelly
Klemm, Jon
Konopka, Zenon
Korab, Jerry
Krog, Jason
Kunitz, Chris
Lambert, Denny
Langdon, Darren
Lapointe, Guy
Larose, Chad
Lebda, Brett
Ledyard, Grant
Lefebvre, Sylvain
Lonsberry, Ross
Maciver, Norm
MacLellan, Brian
Macoun, Jamie
Madden, John
Manery, Randy
Marcotte, Don
McDonald, Andy
McLean, Kurtis
McSorley, Marty
Messier, Eric
Michalek, Zbynek
Milbury, Mike
Mullen, Joe
Muir, Bryan
Murdoch, Bob
Niemi, Antti
Oates, Adam
Odgers, Jeff
Ondrus, Ben
Ortmeyer, Jed
Orr, Colton
Paslawski, Greg
Pelletier, Pascal
Pelley, Rod
Penner, Dustin
Perrin, Eric
Pettersson, Jorgen
Pothier, Brian
Potvin, Jean
Poulin, Dave
Preissing, Tom
Rafalski, Brian
Redmond, Mickey
Reinprecht, Steve
Resch, Glenn
Ridley, Mike
Rissmiller, Pat
Robinson, Scott
Robitaille, Randy
Robert, Rene
Robertson, Geordie
Roloson, Dwayne
Rypien, Rick
Salming, Borje
Sejna, Peter
Sexton, Dan
Shannon, Ryan
Simpson, Todd
Sinisalo, Ilkka
Skolney, Wade
Skudra, Peter
Smail, Doug
Snyder, Dan
St. Louis, Martin
St. Pierre, Martin
Stastny, Marian
Stastny, Peter
Thomas, Steve
Thoresen, Patrick
Tinordi, Mark
Tkaczuk, Walt
Unger, Garry
Vandermeer, Jim
Varlamov, Sergei
Weaver, Mike
White, Todd
Winchester, Jesse
Wood, Randy
Wozniewski, Andy

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I always thought it should die at 20.

@ Johnny13 - I interpreted as "missing guys before" and your list of "never drafted players" as an argument that Mangiapane will be an NHL player. If that's not the case, then it is on you to articulate your position better.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I like Mangiapane, I hope he makes it some day, I think everyone would like to see that. Treliving even said though that you have to be careful with getting to high or to low with guys after this tourney.

If someone watched the last Olympics, one would say that Crosby was one of Canada's worst players. Well I would guarantee that despite that, he would be every GM's #1 pick after that Olympics.

I think it's great that Mangiapane had a good few games. He's obviously very skilled, hopefully he keeps his play up and keeps developing.

 

[TkachuckNotTkaczuk]

I always thought it should die at 20.

@ Johnny13 - I interpreted as "missing guys before" and your list of "never drafted players" as an argument that Mangiapane will be an NHL player. If that's not the case, then it is on you to articulate your position better.

No that's not it, it was simply an argument that management and scouts miss guys, never alluded nor said Mangiapane will be an NHLer. My exact quote "Right and scouts and managements haven't missed guys before?" This is simply examples of guys that were missed in 2 drafts and then I followed it up with another post of many more examples of guys who played in the NHL but went undrafted. The argument that he was missed in 11 rounds means nothing imo, he was picked which is more than all the guys listed can say.

 

[TkachuckNotTkaczuk]

Treliving even said though that you have to be careful with getting to high or to low with guys after this tourney.

Fully agree.

 

[Anglesmith]

Personally, I've like the pick since we made it. I know there are a lot of factors which need to be held in mind in order to temper expectations, but I've liked this player more than Karnhaukov since the draft, and have seen nothing to change that perception.

Yes, Mangiapane was passed over in his draft year, but if we'd picked him in 2014, then we'd have been pretty damn impressed with his draft+1 year last season.

 

[Lunatik]

Stastny was a 2nd round pick IIRC. Unless you're talking one of the old-school Stastnys.

You've listed about 15 players out of how many thousands? Sure it happens, but it hardly happens as often as you may hope.

Mangiapane (who I don't think 100TG hates per se) is still a project and still a while away from being considered a blue chip, can't miss prospect. For me, all it tells me is that it wasn't a wasted pick and there is potential there, but he's still a long way from being an NHL player.

I don't dislike Mangiapane at all, just hate the faux hype he's getting when 3 months ago no one even knew who he was, but now that they see some point totals they'll put him ahead of someone like Kulak has a better chance of being a regular NHLer and improved significantly through the season (and as you know I am not extremely high on Kulak either) but it makes no sense for a recent 5th round pick (who was in his 2nd draft) to suddenly jump up the rankings less than 90 days after being drafted. It reminds me of the hype Tim Harrison was getting after his first prospect camp.

 

[Anglesmith]

I don't dislike Mangiapane at all, just hate the faux hype he's getting when 3 months ago no one even knew who he was, but now that they see some point totals they'll put him ahead of someone like Kulak has a better chance of being a regular NHLer and improved significantly through the season (and as you know I am not extremely high on Kulak either) but it makes no sense for a recent 5th round pick (who was in his 2nd draft) to suddenly jump up the rankings less than 90 days after being drafted. It reminds me of the hype Tim Harrison was getting after his first prospect camp.

Tim Harrison is a great example to bring up. Had that awesome dev. camp his first year, and realistically has fallen completely off the map ever since.

 

[RedHot]

Kanzig being a bad skater has to be the most overblown fallacy among Flames fans. Does he need to improve? yeah, of course but it's not anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be.

Said the same thing last summer about Hanowski, and probably got a similar response.

I've watch Kanzig play about 40 games, so its not like I'm just pulling it out of thin air, its what I've seen.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Tim Harrison is a great example to bring up. Had that awesome dev. camp his first year, and realistically has fallen completely off the map ever since.

I don't even think Tim Harrison exists, the Flames didn't even have his picture available when he was drafted

 

[Lunatik]

Said the same thing last summer about Hanowski, and probably got a similar response.

I've watch Kanzig play about 40 games, so its not like I'm just pulling it out of thin air, its what I've seen.

Yet from what I have seen, what people within the organization, former coaches and people watching the most recent development camp say the opposite. Often bigger guys look slower than they are due to the length of their stride and because it is often awkward.

And I do believe Hanowski's problem wasn't as much as speed but his lack of physicality. They tried to convert him into a more physical player and while he tried he just didn't have it in him. Now for his style of game he was not fast enough, but had he been able to step up the physicality that would have become less important. Same goes for Kanzig, as a stay at home defenseman as long as he is making smart decisions as to when to go after the big hit, plays angles well and has an active stick, speed while an asset becomes much less vital.

I'm not suggesting Kanzig is fast, just saying he's not as terrible as he is made out to be. You listen to people and they make it sound like if he doesn't double his speed he has no shot. But his long stride stride allows him to close gaps while it looks like he is going slow.

 

[Lunatik]

Tim Harrison is a great example to bring up. Had that awesome dev. camp his first year, and realistically has fallen completely off the map ever since.

I think Rafikov is another example, look at the hype last year compared to now too. He had a good series of games that people saw and suddenly he had top 4 potential, now he is in the KHL and been a healthy scratch in 6 of 10 games.

 

[Anglesmith]

I think Rafikov is another example, look at the hype last year compared to now too. He had a good series of games that people saw and suddenly he had top 4 potential, now he is in the KHL and been a healthy scratch in 6 of 10 games.

Eh, it's harder to get a read on Rafikov, because I'm not as familiar with the Russian system as I am with the NA systems. I don't know how to interpret playing time and scratches and such in the KHL. I mean, if he was in NA, he wouldn't be playing in the top league at all.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think Mattson is another Rafikov. I don't expect either will play a game in NA.

 

[Lunatik]

Eh, it's harder to get a read on Rafikov, because I'm not as familiar with the Russian system as I am with the NA systems. I don't know how to interpret playing time and scratches and such in the KHL. I mean, if he was in NA, he wouldn't be playing in the top league at all.

Well all I know is they seem to dress 8 defensemen regularly and he has trouble cracking the lineup. I'm not sure if he would be in the AHL or ECHL here to be honest.

 

[joeyabs]

Really liked Karny in the playoffs last year and looks really good this preseason, poised for huge year in dub imo. Looking forward to seeing him play bigger role this year, great pick.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Tim Harrison is a great example to bring up. Had that awesome dev. camp his first year, and realistically has fallen completely off the map ever since.

Not really. He's a Bouma type, so you can't judge him entirely on his stats. we'll see what happens, but it's not like he's trending down. DeBlouw, OTOH....

I think Rafikov is another example, look at the hype last year compared to now too. He had a good series of games that people saw and suddenly he had top 4 potential, now he is in the KHL and been a healthy scratch in 6 of 10 games.

The KHL is a tough league to crack. Culkin, Wotherspoon etc wouldn't be getting guaranteed ice time there either. Hell, didn't Chad Billins flunk out of there last year?

I do think sitting so many games is bad for his development though.

 

[marbsarebad]

Kanzig being a bad skater has to be the most overblown fallacy among Flames fans. Does he need to improve? yeah, of course but it's not anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be.

[mod] I can't tell if you're trolling or not anymore. Kanzig had to have been the worst defenseman at the Penticton tournament this weekend and that's saying something with all the ATO guys. Also, Mangiapane can clearly score and isn't totally dependent on his line-mates.

 

[Lunatik]

[mod] I can't tell if you're trolling or not anymore. Kanzig had to have been the worst defenseman at the Penticton tournament this weekend and that's saying something with all the ATO guys. Also, Mangiapane can clearly score and isn't totally dependent on his line-mates.

I am serious in my assessment on Kanzig. He was far from the worst defenseman at the tournament, the fact you are suggesting he was is simply laughable. He doesn't play a flashy game so people don't notice him most of the time, but they pick up on mistakes he makes. It's what happens with many stay at home type defensemen. But pardon me for developing my own opinions rather than falling into the group think that is present with many prospects.

 

[marbsarebad]

Him and Eric Roy were the two most responsible for chances against our team the whole tournament. I've always been an advocate for Kanzig, but this tournament has shown me he will be an ECHL defenseman, at best. He has no decision making skills, is probably the worst skater in our organization and his defense was lacking. If you pride yourself on defence and you can't play it, then you're not going to go far.

 

[Lunatik]

Him and Eric Roy were the two most responsible for chances against our team the whole tournament. I've always been an advocate for Kanzig, but this tournament has shown me he will be an ECHL defenseman, at best. He has no decision making skills, is probably the worst skater in our organization and his defense was lacking. If you pride yourself on defence and you can't play it, then you're not going to go far.

The fact you are using 2 games to determine anything says everything I need to know.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Yet from what I have seen, what people within the organization, former coaches and people watching the most recent development camp say the opposite. Often bigger guys look slower than they are due to the length of their stride and because it is often awkward.

And I do believe Hanowski's problem wasn't as much as speed but his lack of physicality. They tried to convert him into a more physical player and while he tried he just didn't have it in him. Now for his style of game he was not fast enough, but had he been able to step up the physicality that would have become less important. Same goes for Kanzig, as a stay at home defenseman as long as he is making smart decisions as to when to go after the big hit, plays angles well and has an active stick, speed while an asset becomes much less vital.

I'm not suggesting Kanzig is fast, just saying he's not as terrible as he is made out to be. You listen to people and they make it sound like if he doesn't double his speed he has no shot. But his long stride stride allows him to close gaps while it looks like he is going slow.

His straight away speed is not that bad, you're right. The biggest issue is his lateral agility; he doesn't have a ton of mobility, which is likely to significantly limit his ability to defend against opposing players in the pros. He can compensate to a degree with his size/reach and positioning, but it's still a pretty substantial deficiency for a defenceman to have.

Combine that with his lacklustre puck skills, and it's pretty easy to consider him a longshot.

 

[Lunatik]

His straight away speed is not that bad, you're right. The biggest issue is his lateral agility; he doesn't have a ton of mobility, which is likely to significantly limit his ability to defend against opposing players in the pros. He can compensate to a degree with his size/reach and positioning, but it's still a pretty substantial deficiency for a defenceman to have.

Combine that with his lacklustre puck skills, and it's pretty easy to consider him a longshot.

Agility can be improved and his has improved and will continue to improve once working with our staff on a daily basis. And let's be honest anyone taken in the 3rd round or later is a long shot

The latter point is the one I think makes people worry, they have int in their heads that you can't make it without being excellent at moving the puck. This is simply not true though, it helps sure, but as long as he stays within himself and makes the quick smart play, he will be just fine.

One of the biggest reasons we see so many high end defensemen come out of later rounds in the draft because so much of it depends on their work ethic and how they think the games (and learn), the one thing that always stood out is whether it be someone from the Flames or Dave Lowry in Victoria they also talked about how well he thinks the game and how hard he works.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Kanzig struggled no question. I don't think players should be judged too severely this early in the season... But at the same time, I think the day of the defensive d-man is going the way of the dinosaur.
Puck moving, skating and possession are so key in the modern day and that's why I prefer most of our D prospects to Kanzig.

I'd rank them..

1) Kylington
2) Hickey
3) Andersson
4) Morrison
5) Culkin
6) Kulak
7) Wotherspoon
8) Rafikov
9) Kanzig