Ironically, I would make the case that Shore was the most out of control "star" player of all-time. Like Richard, he punched out a referee, but he went a little bit further than the Rocket, with the whole Billy Coutu incident, and if you can pleaseshow me something that the Rocket did that was as despicable as Shore's attack on Ace Bailey, I'd like to hear of it.
With that being said Shore and Harvey to me are not a coin flip. Harvey was in my opinion, the most dominant player on the most dominant team ever, and that for me puts him a shade above Shore.
Shore might not have played on as stacked a team, but he managed to do damage all the same. In the form of 4 Hart Trophies, a Runner up and a 5th place finish, as well as a lock for 7-8 Retro Norris trophies and the distinction of being alongside Howie Morenz for best player of that era of Hockey. His offense was considered phenomenal for its time(called the Bobby Orr of his time), and he was a rock in his own end as well, although below Harvey Defensively. I have them ranked 1 after another, but with Shore in front.
Hull is not certainly better than Beliveau. In terms of statistically scoring goals yes. However, I would be hard pressed to find one other aspect of Hull that would help me place him over Beliveau, overall talent in both ends of the rink, ability to elevate his game, effect on teammates play, leadership etc....
Not certainly better. But he is neck and neck with him at least. IMO, better. Initially, I had Beliveau in front, as he was a favorite of mine growing up and I never watched the blackhawks as much back then. But some people and some classic games did a very good job convincing me. I always was under the mistaken impression that Hull played with Mikita, when in fact, they played very very rarely on the ice together at the same time.
In terms of goal scoring, Hull is way ahead of everyone, including Gretzky and Lemieux. In terms of playmaking, Beliveau gets the nod, although teammates should be taken into account here. Hull played with guys like Bill Hay and Todd Sloan, and Later Pit Martin and Chiko Maki instead of Boom Boom Geoffrion or Maurice Richard and Dickie Moore. Obviously, assists are easier to come by with Beliveau's stellar scoring crew. The backend was pretty much a wash between Pilote and Harvey(Harvey is better, but offensively Pilote was equal)
Even so, Hull managed to win 3 Scoring titles to Beliveau's 1 and a wash for Hart Trophies at 2 each. Chicago was also a much more defense first team, lacking the same punch up front, which held scoring back.
Defensively? Both players were good backcheckers. I am not going to lie. I call it a wash, although Hull played on the PK more. Beliveau really did not need to with guys like Backstrom, Provost, Richard and more always there to fill those roles.
And like my earlier post I like to place some weight on playoff performance and I'm sorry that's where Hull is seriously lacking. The Chicago team he played on from 1960 to 1972 maybe be the biggest underachieveing team in league history. And while Beliveau was winning Cup after Cup Hull's Hawks consistently came up short, year after year (with the exception of 1961).
As I said before in deciding between obviously great players for me it comes down to this, who would I want on the ice in that critical game, that critical situation more. For me it would be Beliveau for all that he would bring to the situation.
Uh, Even if you remove Beliveau from that Montreal team, it was twice as strong as the Blackhawks. They had Mikita, Hull and Pilote, with Hall in back, and Hall was, well, not himself in the playoffs most of his career with Detroit or Chicago.
Cup counting when 1 team was a powerhouse and the other not is not the way to go. I know you have a Montreal favoritism, but realistically, if you switched them from team to team, Hull would have the greater number of cups, Beliveau would not. Beliveau's playoff numbers increase by a whopping total of 0.01 points per game, while Hull drops a whopping 0.02 points per game. The real culprit in many of those Hawks losses was Glenn Hall, sad to say.
In any case, I found the real lead by example leadership guy on that Montreal team was Henri Richard, although with that many leaders on the team, it becomes harder to notice individuals. A sentiment Beliveau agrees with.
In Short, I am not trying to drag Beliveau down. I consider him and Hull to be neck and neck, as are all guys in the top 10.
