2009 Top 100 Update Preliminary Discussion Thread

[FissionFire]

With the rebirth of discussions over some players now seems a good time to launch the update efforts. Unlike the initial list, there will be a few minor changes this time around. Posted below will be the expected guidelines and procedures for this.

1. Eligibility
   • Any person who played hockey will be eligible
   • Players will be judged only on hockey accomplishments
   • Players currently active are eligible
2. Preliminary Discussion
   • Thread for discussion of players will be posted
   • Players not on original list can be discussed
   • Posting any ranking/order of players is prohibited
3. Voting
   • Round 1
     • All participants submit a list of players ranked in order
     • Lists will be submitted via email or private message
     • Lists will consist of 120 players
     • Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking
     • Points will be awarded 120 points for a 1st place vote down to 1 point for a 120th place vote
     • An aggregate list of the top 120 players will be compiled ranking the players in order of the most total points
     • Participants MUST submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible for Round 2
   • Round 2
     • The top 15 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
     • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
     • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
     • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, also by email or private message
     • Top 10 players will be added to the list
     • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 10 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained
   • In the event that two players are tied after Round 2, the higher spot will be awarded to the player with the most top votes (1st, then 2nd, etc.)
4. Quality Assurance
   • Questionable lists will be subject to an evaluation process
   • The submitter will be given an opportunity to defend or justify any selection under question

If there are any objections or questions/suggestions on this procedure please feel free to voice them now.

Click to read more...

 

[FissionFire]

This thread will serve as the Preliminary Discussion thread. At this time discussions are open. Round 1 lists will be due no later than Sunday, January 25th. Round 2 is tentatively scheduled to begin on Sunday, February 1st. There will be 10 votes total with each vote inducting 10 players meaning that Round 2 will last for 10 weeks total. This means it will be scheduled to conclude on Monday, April 13th. Just in time to get ready for the playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thanks for doing this again. It will be interesting to see how the new list compares to the old one. I look forward to participating - the reason I didn't participate the last time is because I didn't know enough about players before the 1980s to competently judge them, but I learned a lot from lurking during the last version of the list.

It will be interesting to see which players had their stock rise in the past year. I would assume Lidstrom would have the biggest rise, winning another Norris (by a blowout) and captaining his team to the Cup. Brodeur should probably rise a bit after capturing another Vezina.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that anybody did to tarnish their legacy (like post-97 Messier), so any big drops would have to be due to change of opinion.

Did any players accomplish enough to sneak in the bottom of the list? I could see Iginla sneaking into the bottom end of a few more lists, after being a finalist for another Hart.

 

[FissionFire]

I think you'll see alot of names that were close but not quite come up again here. I'm a big fan of Rod Langway and feel he's a Top 120 guy. Others like Gilmour. It's hard to say. Some of the most contested players like Henri Richard could find their ranking rise or fall qiute a bit based on something as small as a different voting base. I really hope all those who took part last time choose to do so again. I'm also hoping to add some new faces to the project. The first list had 27 participants. I hope to get at least 35-40 if not more this time around.

Please, tell a friend. Try to get as many people involved as we can. The more who partake, the better the results will be. I especially encourage our Swedish, Russian, Finnish, and other european posters to get involved. They will have a different view of who is great compared to the North American posters I'd wager.

 

[seventieslord]

Thanks for doing this again. It will be interesting to see how the new list compares to the old one. I look forward to participating - the reason I didn't participate the last time is because I didn't know enough about players before the 1980s to competently judge them, but I learned a lot from lurking during the last version of the list.

It will be interesting to see which players had their stock rise in the past year. I would assume Lidstrom would have the biggest rise, winning another Norris (by a blowout) and captaining his team to the Cup. Brodeur should probably rise a bit after capturing another Vezina.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that anybody did to tarnish their legacy (like post-97 Messier), so any big drops would have to be due to change of opinion.

Did any players accomplish enough to sneak in the bottom of the list? I could see Iginla sneaking into the bottom end of a few more lists, after being a finalist for another Hart.

While it's true that some top-100 players impacted their legacies last season, I think their ranking will be affected even more by the further discussion that takes place.

 

[DaveG]

I would definitely like to see a bit more input from the Euro contingent about some of the players missed last time.

In terms of recent players, I'm going with a 10 year rule; So Thornton, who wasn't on my list last time, will likely find his way onto the bottom part at least. Iginla is doing more and more to cement his place on my list as well. That said, those are the only two drafted between 1994 and 1998 that I can think of that have a shot at my list.

Oh, and I still say Francis was underrated last time.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Thanks for doing this again. It will be interesting to see how the new list compares to the old one. I look forward to participating - the reason I didn't participate the last time is because I didn't know enough about players before the 1980s to competently judge them, but I learned a lot from lurking during the last version of the list.

It will be interesting to see which players had their stock rise in the past year. I would assume Lidstrom would have the biggest rise, winning another Norris (by a blowout) and captaining his team to the Cup. Brodeur should probably rise a bit after capturing another Vezina.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that anybody did to tarnish their legacy (like post-97 Messier), so any big drops would have to be due to change of opinion.

Did any players accomplish enough to sneak in the bottom of the list? I could see Iginla sneaking into the bottom end of a few more lists, after being a finalist for another Hart.

Brodeur is always an interesting argument.

Though winning another Vezina may enhance his status with some, the fact that his first prolonged absence due to injury has not empacted the Devils at all could be fodder for his critics.

 

[Foy]

Brodeur is always an interesting argument.

Though winning another Vezina may enhance his status with some, the fact that his first prolonged absence due to injury has not empacted the Devils at all could be fodder for his critics.

I disagree that his absence hasn't impacted the devils. They've had to change the style of game they've played in order to compensate for his absence, scoring far more goals than they did with him in the net.

The Devils are 3-2 this season with brodeur in the net when scoring 2 goals or less.
They are 1-11 in those games with Weekes or Clemmensen.

Have they been able to get the Ws? Yeah, but they lost 5 of their first 6 games without Brodeur, the only win being a shootout win against Tampa. Theye've been able to get it done, but they've had to completely change their identity in the process.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I most certainly will be participating again.

I certainly hope you will this time around Fission Fire. I know you wanted to avoid participating in a project you were running, but I think I speak for everyone when I say I know you are a reliable trustworthy source, and if we get one more member participating this time around, I hope it is you.

 

[reckoning]

I'm glad we're getting rid of ties. I also like the idea of doing 10 players at a time instead of 5. One suggestion I would make long-term is that after this, maybe we go for a different category next time (i.e. 100 greatest goalies, 100 greatest defencemen, 100 greatest coaches, etc.) so we're not having the same debates about the same players every year. But it's good we're doing the main list again this time as a lot of us (myself included) have likely decided on several changes from our initial list.

Also, let's hope that all the people who complained about the last list will submit lists this time around.

 

[Foy]

I would gladly like to join in this time, and reduce one person who has complained (albeit mildly) about the lists.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I disagree that his absence hasn't impacted the devils. They've had to change the style of game they've played in order to compensate for his absence, scoring far more goals than they did with him in the net.

The Devils are 3-2 this season with brodeur in the net when scoring 2 goals or less.
They are 1-11 in those games with Weekes or Clemmensen.

Have they been able to get the Ws? Yeah, but they lost 5 of their first 6 games without Brodeur, the only win being a shootout win against Tampa. Theye've been able to get it done, but they've had to completely change their identity in the process.

Brodeur's goals against this year was 2.16, with a .916 save percentage. 6-2-2.
Clemmensen, 2.17, .926, 14-6-1.

Those numbers would tell me the difference is Brodeur's puck handling skills result in less shots on goal. And not much else. You would think the difference might be more significant going from an all-time great to a 31 year old goalie with 19 NHL starts before this season.

 

[MXD]

Nice, I'll be in again. My revised list is done, from Gretzky to Doug Bentley (which really only says that I have Bentley in my list). And no more Two Hortons and No Coffees.

 

[kmad]

I'm gonna try to submit a list. I've been reading a lot about the 20s/30s/40s/50s and I think I have a decent handle on the players from that era.

But I know next to nothing about the Russians and Czechs from the bloc era.

Is there any reading I could do on those guys?

 

[TANK200]

I'll throw together a list if I have time/am not too lazy. I meant to last year too, but the lazy part got me.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I'm good to go again, looking forward to ranking the pre-26 players with help from The Trail.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm in. This time I'll put more time into my preliminary list.

What are the odds that Henri Richard is the most contentious player?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I'm looking very much forward to participating this time. Last year things were just too busy.

 

[Roke]

I'm in. This time I'll put more time into my preliminary list.

What are the odds that Henri Richard is the most contentious player?

Him or Messier would be my bet.

I considered throwing my hat in this time, but seeing how I don't know much about the pre-26 players and only have 1 resource for that, and know next to nothing about the Soviet/Bloc players (with 0 resources) I think I'll do what TheDevilMadeMe did last year, lurk/apprentice, and take a shot in 2010 (assuming you update it again).

Good luck.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I will be involved again, although maybe not in the same capacity as last time.

And I hope that we will have the same "quality control" standards as last time.

 

[DaveG]

Him or Messier would be my bet.

I considered throwing my hat in this time, but seeing how I don't know much about the pre-26 players and only have 1 resource for that, and know next to nothing about the Soviet/Bloc players (with 0 resources) I think I'll do what TheDevilMadeMe did last year, lurk/apprentice, and take a shot in 2010 (assuming you update it again).

Good luck.

good shot at some heated discussions on Jagr and the Soviet Era players as well.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brodeur's goals against this year was 2.16, with a .916 save percentage. 6-2-2.
Clemmensen, 2.17, .926, 14-6-1.

Those numbers would tell me the difference is Brodeur's puck handling skills result in less shots on goal. And not much else. You would think the difference might be more significant going from an all-time great to a 31 year old goalie with 19 NHL starts before this season.

It's not just puck handling. It's also rebound control. Clemmensen's rebound control is terrible, but he's been on a hot streak, so he's able to constantly get in the way of shots. I can't see it lasting.

Clemmensen is a mediocre goalie on an extended hot streak, like Ty Conklin last year or Cam Ward in the 2006 playoffs. It happens. The great ones are the guys like Brodeur who can do it consistently.

Clemmensen's play has also been a great case of "the stats don't tell the whole story." As Foy pointed out before, if the Devils don't score at least 3 goals, they are almost guaranteed a loss with Clemmensen in net, despite his gaudy stats. While this certainly makes for exciting hockey, it isn't the way to win in the playoffs.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Save it for when their names come up for voting fellas
(Or create a thread)

 

[Dark Shadows]

good shot at some heated discussions on Jagr and the Soviet Era players as well.

Ill likely be addressing the gap between the Bentley Brothers. I have been talked into Max being ahead on my list after a long debate with Pappy, but they are side by side as far as I am concerned.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Thanks for doing this again. It will be interesting to see how the new list compares to the old one. I look forward to participating - the reason I didn't participate the last time is because I didn't know enough about players before the 1980s to competently judge them, but I learned a lot from lurking during the last version of the list.

It will be interesting to see which players had their stock rise in the past year. I would assume Lidstrom would have the biggest rise, winning another Norris (by a blowout) and captaining his team to the Cup. Brodeur should probably rise a bit after capturing another Vezina.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that anybody did to tarnish their legacy (like post-97 Messier), so any big drops would have to be due to change of opinion.

Did any players accomplish enough to sneak in the bottom of the list? I could see Iginla sneaking into the bottom end of a few more lists, after being a finalist for another Hart.

Not only that, but Lidstrom also had a top 4 Hart finish for the first time. Captaining a cup and winning another Norris along with that at age 39 has made me bump him ahead of Potvin. Something I never thought would happen.