2009 Top 100 Update Preliminary Discussion Thread

FissionFire

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Dec 22, 2006
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Just throwing my 2 cents in.....

Gordie Howe should be #1 (see prior discussion threads)
Ted Lindsay should be above Mark Messier (see prior discussion threads)
Rod Langway belongs somewhere on every list
Henri Richard should be closer to 100 than 50 (see the vote 10 thread)
 

Dark Shadows

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Just throwing my 2 cents in.....

Gordie Howe should be #1 (see prior discussion threads)
Ted Lindsay should be above Mark Messier (see prior discussion threads)
Rod Langway belongs somewhere on every list
Henri Richard should be closer to 100 than 50 (see the vote 10 thread)

As I posted in the other thread, what is your take on Schmidt?
 

FissionFire

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Not really sure. I was never high on him before, but the discussion made me think about it. Facing him in ATD9 taught me alot more. Honestly, I think he's a bit overrated. The intangibles argument really doesn't sway me much, especially with other players. Journalistic writing styles were more, for lack of a better term, graphically poetic back then. As such some of the stories written about these guys most likely take a little artistic license for the same of a good story and imagery. He might be a top 50 guy, but I'd have to sit down and really dig into the numbers again (it's been awhile). Intangibles should tweak a guy up or down a few spots in a close debate, not leap them far up over players who simply produced better and/or longer.
 

Triffy

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- I think Kharlamov and Firsov should be close. In my opinion, they belong to top 30
- Makarov and Fetisov should also be in top 50
- Krutov was better than Larionov and should be included before him
- Maltsev was probably the biggest omission on the last list, he should definitely be in top 100
- Holecek and Tretiak should be close
- If you include Nedomansky, Martinec should probably be in too. I actually have Martinec slightly ahead of Nedomansky
- Jan Suchy should be given consideration. I know he had a short peak but when talking about the best ever European D-men, I don't think he can be excluded
 

Dark Shadows

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- I think Kharlamov and Firsov should be close. In my opinion, they belong to top 30
Fetisov and tretiak belong ahead of Firsov

- Makarov and Fetisov should also be in top 50
Do you prefer Makarov over Mikhailov?

- Krutov was better than Larionov and should be included before him
Uh, no he was not. Larionov was the best defensively of the KLM line, and apparently, Russians did not count secondary assists(So someone told me) so his numbers look a bit lower. But in reality, neither of those players are making this list so debating it is moot.


- Maltsev was probably the biggest omission on the last list, he should definitely be in top 100
I have Maltsev at 110, but cannot see him getting into top 100. Unless you can show me why he is better than those already on the list

- Holecek and Tretiak should be close
I start agreeing with this argument more and more. But I have them a fair bit apart.
I know Holecek outperformed Tretiak 3 out of 4 times they faced off, but it is such a small sample size. Tretiak's 5 MVP's in the Soviet league given his competition is no small feat.

- If you include Nedomansky, Martinec should probably be in too. I actually have Martinec slightly ahead of Nedomansky
I do as well. In fact, the Czech's voted top 10 all time looked something like this.
1. DOMINIK HAÅ EK 472
2. JAROMÃR JÃGR 357
3. VLADIMÃR ZÃBRODSKÃ 240
4. VLADIMÃR MARTINEC 235
5. IVAN HLINKA 181
6. VLASTIMIL BUBNÃK 160
7. JAN SUCHÃ 154
8. JIRÃ HOLÃK 136
9. JOSEF MALECEK 121
10. VÃCLAV NEDOMANSKÃ 98
11. Jirí Holecek 97
12. Bohumil Modrý 93

No idea why they voted Holecek so low. This is just a copy paste.

- Jan Suchy should be given consideration. I know he had a short peak but when talking about the best ever European D-men, I don't think he can be excluded
Starting from guys who did not make the top 100
My top 50 all time Defensemen.
1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Raymond Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly
8. Larry Robinson
9. Viacheslav Fetisov
10. Brad Park
11. Chris Chelios
12. Paul Coffey
13. Pierre Pilote
14. Dit Clapper
15. King Clancy
16. Earl Seibert
17. Tim Horton
18. Bill Gadsby
19. Al Macinnis
20. Sprague Cleghorn
21. Borje Salming
22. Valeri Vasiliev
23. Rod Langway
24. Scott Stevens
25. Brian Leetch
26. Serge Savard
27. Mark Howe
28. Eddie Gerard
29. Black Jack Stewart
30. Guy Lapointe
31. George Boucher
32. Bill Quackenbush
33. Chris Pronger
34. Harry Cameron
35. Scott Niedermayer
36. Lionel Hitchman
37. J.C Tremblay
38. Jan Suchý
39. Ching Johnson
40. Alexei Kasatonov
41. Emile Butch Bouchard
42. Doug Wilson
43. Lionel Conacher
44. Sylvio Mantha
45. Alexander Ragulin
46. Jacques Laperriere
47. František Pospíšil
48. Rob Blake
49. Harry Howell
50. Marcel Pronovost
51. Ebbie Goodfellow

There are a ton of guys I would consider ahead of Sychy. his chances are remote at best.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Starting from guys who did not make the top 100
My top 50 all time Defensemen.
1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Raymond Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly
8. Larry Robinson
9. Viacheslav Fetisov
10. Brad Park
11. Chris Chelios
12. Paul Coffey
13. Pierre Pilote
14. Dit Clapper
15. King Clancy
16. Earl Seibert
17. Tim Horton
18. Bill Gadsby
19. Al Macinnis
20. Sprague Cleghorn
21. Borje Salming
22. Valeri Vasiliev
23. Rod Langway
24. Scott Stevens
25. Brian Leetch
26. Serge Savard
27. Mark Howe
28. Eddie Gerard
29. Black Jack Stewart
30. Guy Lapointe
31. George Boucher
32. Bill Quackenbush
33. Chris Pronger
34. Harry Cameron
35. Scott Niedermayer
36. Lionel Hitchman
37. J.C Tremblay
38. Jan Suchý
39. Ching Johnson
40. Alexei Kasatonov
41. Emile Butch Bouchard
42. Doug Wilson
43. Lionel Conacher
44. Sylvio Mantha
45. Alexander Ragulin
46. Jacques Laperriere
47. František Pospíšil
48. Rob Blake
49. Harry Howell
50. Marcel Pronovost
51. Ebbie Goodfellow

There are a ton of guys I would consider ahead of Sychy. his chances are remote at best.

Wow... I have Goodfellow roughly 25 spots higher than you do (well, when looking only at d-men in my Top-120 list - and that's considering Goodfellow played a part of his career at C, so he would actually be a little bit lower in an All-Dmen list). I don't understand how somebody could rank Clapper so high and Goodfellow so low in a D-only list.



This said, I considered Eddie Gerard for my list, but in the end, he would have ended up 130th or something like that.
 

MXD

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I'll take Guy Lapointe over Serge Savard and hope they'll be close enough in the ranking so we can discuss it.

Ken Dryden's words in The Game also strongly support that claim, but he also put Lapointe above Robinson (at least, for the first years of Robinson's career, which were his best anyways.
 

seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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I had Quackenbush just outside of my top 100. Quackenbush and Jack Stewart were two of my toughest omissions. Big fan of both. Quackenbush is a sort of poor man's Lidstrom - a sublime two-way, clean defenceman. Stewart has a lot in common with Scotty Stevens - my all-time favourite defenceman.

A poor man's Lidstrom is exactly what he is. But more physical. Earlier, I thought he was closer to the Housley of his time but that is highly unfair to him.

On the all-star front. Do you think Quackenbush would have done any better than Savard if Quackenbush was playing in the 60s and 70s? I don't. Orr, Park, Potvin, Robinson and Salming are certain top 100 players. Lapointe is close.

There's no saying for sure. Probably not. But then we'd talk about Quackenbush the same way we talk about Savard now.

Who's to say what's better - not being as good as Orr, Park, Potvin, Robinson, and Salming, and about as good as Lapointe? Or being better than Bouchard and about as good as Stewart? That's what we're dealing with here. These guys played 20 years apart and obviously some comparisons need to be made that show what their status was within the context of their league.

Savard's lack of all-star nods could have something to do with reduced viewing opportunities caused by expansion. If he would have played in the Original 6, when voters saw each player 14 times per season, I think he would have had several all-star births, even if he played in the Kelly/Harvey/Gadsby days. There'd be more appreciation for a player like Savard. Playing post-expansion, voters didn't see Savard as much, and so there's a greater reliance on stats. Savard wasn't a stats guy. He's one of the best defensive defencemen of all-time, but there isn't a stat to truly measure how truly good a defensive defenceman is. It's easier to gauge how good Lapointe and Salming are, based on stats, than Savard.

Expansion meant that the voters saw every player less often though, not just Savard. None of the defensemen who were better than Savard were solely stats-based defensemen, either. They all played excellent defense.

How do you account for Rod Langway? His offensive output was even less than Savard's, yet he managed two Norrises and three all-star berths, and was top-5 for the Hart twice. The league was even larger in his prime as well (21 teams compared to 18 in Savard's prime) so voters would have seen him even less too, and his greateness was even more sparsely based on stats.

Formulas don't work in hockey. Adjusted for era stats are like chasing after the wind. They don't work. We saw that they are a truly abysmal failure with one of the lists that was submitted last time. (Note: If you think that Alexander Mogilny is a top 120 player ever, this project is NOT for you).

While I agree I wouldn't have Mogilny in my top-250, who's talking about formulas?

And formulas especially don't work for defencemen. Unless you can devise a formula that demonstrates a defenceman's ability to thrive playing against an opponent's best player on a nightly basis (especially in best-of-seven series), his ability to win battles in the corners, his ability to block shots, his ability to make the right decisions on a split-second basis, and his ability to effectively move the puck and quarterback a power play, then you are concocting a hypothesis that doesn't work.

No, you don't need formulas to tell you that. But most of those supposed intangibles you speak of are things that would show up in a player's point totals, goals for and against numbers, their team's overall record, PP or PK ranking, and other standard stats. Not to mention recognized by the voters for awards and all-star teams.

In the end, the best players are the ones who have the knack for causing their teams to score more goals and/or allow fewer goals, to what degree, for how long they had this knack, and how important the situations are in which they are able to do so. It doesn't matter how they do it, it just matters if they do it. For example, I don't care that Lidstrom doesn't hit or block shots. When he's on the ice, he stops his team from being scored on. And I know he can move the puck and quarterback a powerplay because he has run one of the best powerplays in the league and put up a lot of points there. If he wasn't that great at it, they'd find someone else to do it.
 
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Dark Shadows

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Wow... I have Goodfellow roughly 25 spots higher than you do (well, when looking only at d-men in my Top-120 list - and that's considering Goodfellow played a part of his career at C, so he would actually be a little bit lower in an All-Dmen list). I don't understand how somebody could rank Clapper so high and Goodfellow so low in a D-only list.



This said, I considered Eddie Gerard for my list, but in the end, he would have ended up 130th or something like that.
Admittedly, Goodfellow was an afterthought, and I lazily threw him in on the end. He certainly was not going to jump 25 spots. Especially since he did not become a defenseman until 1934-35. Granted he did win a Hart as a Dman so I will need to shuffle him in accordingly.


I'll take Guy Lapointe over Serge Savard and hope they'll be close enough in the ranking so we can discuss it.
Not me. From the Big 3, Obviously Robinson is #1. But Savard and Lapointe were both very very good and close.

Savard after he buggered up he knee, still went on to become one of the top 3 Defensive Defensemen I have ever seen(Harvey and Langway being the 2 I rank ahead of him). Defensively, Lapointe was no slouch and offensively, he was better, but the gap in defense was larger.

Savard rarely got the same type of PP time as the other 2. The one year he did get more PP time, he scored 20 goals and 60+ points.

Lapointe always finished higher in the voting though. Voters do love their offense. Its just a personal opinion of mine.

One other notable thing is playoff performance. Lapointe was a 0.70 PPG player in the RS, and a 0.57 PPG player in the playoffs. Savard was a 0.42PPG player in the regular season and a 0.52 PPG player in the playoffs, and has a Conn Smythe to throw into it.

Savard only played in 5 games for the Canadians in the Summit series, but in those 5 games, the Canadians went 4-0-1.

When He went to the Jets at the end of his career, the Jets previous 2 seasons had been 50 points and 32 points. Savard and Hawerchuk arrived and the team suddenly made the playoffs with 80 points.
 

Dark Shadows

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Expansion meant that the voters saw every player less often though, not just Savard. None of the defensemen who were better than Savard were solely stats-based defensemen, either. They all played excellent defense.

How do you account for Rod Langway? His offensive output was even less than Savard's, yet he managed two Norrises and three all-star berths, and was top-5 for the Hart twice. The league was even larger in his prime as well (21 teams compared to 18 in Savard's prime) so voters would have seen him even less too, and his greateness was even more sparsely based on stats.

And, one final thing to note about Savard: he was a tremendous playoff performer. That's why he should be a shoo-in for the top 100.
The first thing I will say is, I think Langway is underrated, and I voted for him ahead of Savard, and even ahead of Leetch and Stevens.

In the context of this argument though.

Langway was more visible than Savard because of the trade and immediate impact people saw him make on the Capitals. Savard was a great player on a great team, overshadowed by great teammates, yet every bit as important.

Langway was the expendable Montreal Defenseman who went to a terrible team that had never made the playoffs and had a Horrid GAA, and he turned them into a playoff team overnight, and Dropped their GAA by a metric ton. Did he do this alone? No, but he was the main visible reason for the teams change in fortunes.

As I said above. Savard was second fiddle to PP time behind Robinson and Lapointe, and the one year they did Savard him a lot of PP time, he set his career highs. His point totals suffered being second fiddle for PP time. Which is unfortunate. But Montreal had a unique situation for Defensemen.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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As many (all?) of you know, Howie Morenz was voted the NHL's most outstanding player of its first half century, ahead of Eddie Shore. I think evaluations by people who actually saw players play are very important. Does this mean we should put Morenz a spot or two above Shore in the top 10? Or do you think there was some kind of pro-Montreal bias in the vote?
 

Jungosi

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As many (all?) of you know, Howie Morenz was voted the NHL's most outstanding player of its first half century, ahead of Eddie Shore. I think evaluations by people who actually saw players play are very important. Does this mean we should put Morenz a spot or two above Shore in the top 10? Or do you think there was some kind of pro-Montreal bias in the vote?

I think the voters were still thinking about the Bailey incident. I doubt that they wanted to have someone as they're most outstanding athlete who almost killed somebody and was a pretty unfair player in general. Also I think the fact that Morenz had died influenced the vote a bit.
 

Big Phil

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Triffy;17157048[QUOTE said:
]-- Makarov and Fetisov should also be in top 50

I can live with both of them in the top 100. 50 might be a stretch though.

- Krutov was better than Larionov and should be included before him
[/QUOTE]

Negative. Now, if you are looking at pure peak performance you might be right. I don't think Larionov was ever as good as Krutov was at his best. But overall Larionov blows him out of the water. He excelled in Russia and in the NHL. Larionov kills him in longevity. Krutov had one NHL season and that was it, he got wildly out of shape at 30 years old indulging in the North American food.
 

Dark Shadows

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As many (all?) of you know, Howie Morenz was voted the NHL's most outstanding player of its first half century, ahead of Eddie Shore. I think evaluations by people who actually saw players play are very important. Does this mean we should put Morenz a spot or two above Shore in the top 10? Or do you think there was some kind of pro-Montreal bias in the vote?
Voted on by who?
Do those voters matter as much as the people who were voting for awards in the time these two player played?

Eddie Shore also won 4 Hart Trophies(also a runner up and two 3rd place finishes for the Hart) and had 7 first and 1 second team all star selection. And He was a lock for at least 2 more 1st team selections had they existed prior to 30-31. That's 9 years in which Shore was considered at least top 2 on Defense, and 1 other year in which he was top 4.

Morenz has 3 Hart wins and a Single runner up. 2 first and 1 second team selection. Adding up the likely years he would have had selection pre-30-31, He ends up with 4 first team selections and 3 second team, with a possible 3rd second team(1926-27 had 2 Centers ahead of him in hart Voting, but he outscored 1 of them.)
 

MXD

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Morenz has 3 Hart wins and a Single runner up. 2 first and 1 second team selection. Adding up the likely years he would have had selection pre-30-31, He ends up with 4 first team selections and 3 second team, with a possible 3rd second team(1926-27 had 2 Centers ahead of him in hart Voting, but he outscored 1 of them.)

Possible explanation : Hart winner was a Hab that year, and while I don't think Gardiner cannibalized Morenz votes (played at different positions and had very different roles), it makes sense to think that if the majority of the voters thought that a mainly defensive D-Men was the MVP to the Habs, they certainly wouldn't think a mainly offensive Center was their MVP.
 

God Bless Canada

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Howe: Best forward ever IMO. Better than Gretz and Mario. Not as good offensively, but the gap between them in the offensive zone is offset by all that Howe brought to a team. Still not as good as Orr, though. Nobody did more at such a high level than Bobby Orr.

On the Schmidt front: I think he's unquestionably top 50 material, and a good case can be made for him in the top 25. (Trust me, pappy did it). Just an incredible two-way player. Very, very similar to Bryan Trottier. Point-per-game seasons in his time were like 120-point seasons in the 80s. A tremendous offensive player who was likely one of the top five defensive forwards voted into the top 100. (Clarke, H. Richard and Keon are the only ones who stand out in Schmidt's class). After the war, he was often the only real offensive threat that the Bruins had.

Dit Clapper was one of my toughest omissions from the top 50. I don't know if there was any player, ever, who did it all like Dit Clapper. The only thing he wasn't great at was face-offs. And that's because he was a winger. He could be a scoring winger. He could be an offensive defenceman. He could be a defensive stalward as a winger or a defenceman. He hit. He was a great leader. He was a tremendous competitor. He was an excellent fighter, but nobody wanted to challenge him. There's never been another one like him. There might never be another one like him. Everything you could ever want in a player, he brought it.

I would say that Shore was the better player than Morenz, but Morenz had a greater impact on the game. He's been labelled hockey's first superstar and the Babe Ruth of hockey. After the last great western league folded in 1926, it meant that almost all of the game's best were in the NHL. Morenz became the focal point for the league, it's top draw, it's top star. The Habs weren't a powerhouse before Morenz arrived. Some credit Morenz for saving big league hockey in Montreal. He transcended the game in ways that Shore never did, and few - Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux, Richard, maybe Hull - ever have.

As for Savard: it's true that his contempories, like any other defenceman, can't be evaluated based on stats. But with Savard, it goes to another level. There isn't a stat to measure what Savard does so well. The PP ice time is a factor, although I'd have Lapointe on the point for the PP than Savard, too. But I'd take Savard five-on-five or on the penalty kill. I'd love to have him on the ice for every single minute that he was lined up against the opponent's top line. One of the best defensive defencemen of all-time. And one of the best playoff performer defencemen of all-time. Love that Conn Smythe. His offence rose in the playoffs, while not taking away from his leadership or his contributions in his own zone.

I think Thornton's on to something when he talks about Langway getting that extra prominence, not normally reserved for defensive defencemen, because of his impact on the Washington franchise. Would he have received the same notoriety if he would have starred in Montreal or the Islanders or the Bruins, or if he was in hockey obscurity in LA in the early 80s? Probably not. But his arrival (along with that of Bryan Murray the year before) resulted in a dramatic reversal of fortune (at least in the regular season) for an organization that had never won more than 27 games, so people stood up and took notice.
 

Dark Shadows

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Howe: Best forward ever IMO. Better than Gretz and Mario. Not as good offensively, but the gap between them in the offensive zone is offset by all that Howe brought to a team. Still not as good as Orr, though. Nobody did more at such a high level than Bobby Orr.
We can agree to disagree here:)

On the Schmidt front: I think he's unquestionably top 50 material, and a good case can be made for him in the top 25. (Trust me, pappy did it). Just an incredible two-way player. Very, very similar to Bryan Trottier. Point-per-game seasons in his time were like 120-point seasons in the 80s. A tremendous offensive player who was likely one of the top five defensive forwards voted into the top 100. (Clarke, H. Richard and Keon are the only ones who stand out in Schmidt's class). After the war, he was often the only real offensive threat that the Bruins had.
This is how Schmidt's scoring stacks up in regards to his peers in regards to top 10 in points.
Points
1939-40 NHL 52 (1)
1940-41 NHL 38 (10)
1946-47 NHL 62 (4)
1950-51 NHL 61 (4)
1951-52 NHL 50 (10)

He missed 3 years in his prime, but the "what if game" is going to have to come into play.

I try to tell people Henri Richard is a good comparable to those guys defensively, but it seems to not matter.

But back to Schmidt. Does his Defense really elevate him this far ahead of the Bentley's? Doug Bentley was also one of the best backcheckers of that era, and he put up some fine offensive numbers too.
Dit Clapper was one of my toughest omissions from the top 50. I don't know if there was any player, ever, who did it all like Dit Clapper. The only thing he wasn't great at was face-offs. And that's because he was a winger. He could be a scoring winger. He could be an offensive defenceman. He could be a defensive stalward as a winger or a defenceman. He hit. He was a great leader. He was a tremendous competitor. He was an excellent fighter, but nobody wanted to challenge him. There's never been another one like him. There might never be another one like him. Everything you could ever want in a player, he brought it.
I agree.

As for Savard: it's true that his contempories, like any other defenceman, can't be evaluated based on stats. But with Savard, it goes to another level. There isn't a stat to measure what Savard does so well. The PP ice time is a factor, although I'd have Lapointe on the point for the PP than Savard, too. But I'd take Savard five-on-five or on the penalty kill. I'd love to have him on the ice for every single minute that he was lined up against the opponent's top line. One of the best defensive defencemen of all-time. And one of the best playoff performer defencemen of all-time. Love that Conn Smythe. His offence rose in the playoffs, while not taking away from his leadership or his contributions in his own zone.
Could not agree more

I think Thornton's on to something when he talks about Langway getting that extra prominence, not normally reserved for defensive defencemen, because of his impact on the Washington franchise. Would he have received the same notoriety if he would have starred in Montreal or the Islanders or the Bruins, or if he was in hockey obscurity in LA in the early 80s? Probably not. But his arrival (along with that of Bryan Murray the year before) resulted in a dramatic reversal of fortune (at least in the regular season) for an organization that had never won more than 27 games, so people stood up and took notice.

And Langway deserves his accolades for it.
 

lextune

I'm too old for this.
Jun 9, 2008
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The first thing I will say is, I think Langway is underrated, and I voted for him ahead of Savard, and even ahead of Leetch and Stevens.

Same here.

My list has already been submitted and I have Langway at 83, Savard at 84, Stevens at 86 and Leetch at 94.
 

lextune

I'm too old for this.
Jun 9, 2008
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New Hampshire
The interesting part is that even though I have Langway several spots higher than you we both have them all grouped so closely to one another....

If I am not mistaken Langway did not even make the last top 100 list......?

*goes to check* ;)
 

FissionFire

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Dec 22, 2006
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Just a reminder.....

With the rebirth of discussions over some players now seems a good time to launch the update efforts. Unlike the initial list, there will be a few minor changes this time around. Posted below will be the expected guidelines and procedures for this.

  1. Preliminary Discussion
    • Thread for discussion of players will be posted
    • Players not on original list can be discussed
    • Posting any ranking/order of players is prohibited
 

Dark Shadows

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Just a reminder.....

Oops. Sorry. I missed that. But that was from last year right, when we did not want people just copy pasting lists and making adjustments?

It kind of goes out the window this year since most of the members who are participating have their master list and voting records visible for anyone to see already right?
 

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