20 Toews versus 20 Ovechkins

[Dekes For Days]

That's why I used a 3 year peak for both players

Claiming Toews to be a 40 goal, 90 point player is not using a 3 year peak. That is taking a small sample size, extrapolating out one single season from it, and then applying an incorrect adjustment to it.

I have already posted their respective 3 year peaks multiple times, and Ovechkin has a significant advantage.

ES P/60

Ovechkin: 3.21
Toews: 2.65

ES P1/60

Ovechkin: 2.77
Toews: 2.17

PP P/60

Ovechkin: 5.68
Toews: 4.54

PP P1/60

Ovechkin: 4.44
Toews: 2.85

no You jst haven't answered the question because you don't like the answer.

Actually, I have answered the question. We have never seen 20 generational players play with each other through their peaks. It is entirely possible that a team get 100 shots, or whatever you want to believe is necessary. That said, the offensive advantage can maintain through keeping the same ratio of shots between them - something you have continuously refused to address.

I laid out based 100% on facts what Ovi did and how he did it (with such a high number of SOG) and how that type of production would be virtually impossible across a team of 20 Ovechkin's

You did not lay out any data or reasoning for why those shot counts or shot ratios or the offensive seperation between them would change. Not a single piece of support for that. You essentially just looked at the shot totals, said "nah - that's too high" for Ovechkin, and then because Toews sucks more and is closer to a normal team, you claimed it to be a-okay. You have not substantiated this at all, and every time you have been asked to, you either refuse, deflect, or give up the conversation altogether, only to claim it again in conversations with others.

 

[GreatGonzo]

So freaking waht, are you taking to a mirror, the only person freaking out here seems to be you.

Maybe this is what happens when social distancing takes place and there is no hockey to watch?



no you are right he only played in 47 of the 48 games but he still had 48 points so that would make him a PPG type of player right for that season?



Last time I looked up NHL.com or hockey reference or heck any other site that's a full season.

Different seasons over time have had different amounts of games.



Sure that's why I qualified it at his peak SEASON ADJUSTED and in his peak 3 seasons he is a PPGish type of player.

Look if he is a couple of points over or under a PPG for 3 seasons WTF does it really matter?

The fact that you have to adjust his offensive peak proves how weak offensively Toews was at his peak.

You don’t have to adjust anything for Ovechkin during his peak. He was the top player in the league. For Toews, you need to adjust and move goal posts to make that an argument.

You are making up for games that were never played and calling it how it didn’t happen.

That's why I used a 3 year peak for both players and that was 186 games for Toews 2 of which were pretty much full NHL season and the other a 59 game sandwiched in between where he had 57 points.





no You jst haven't answered the question because you don't like the answer.

I laid out based 100% on facts what Ovi did and how he did it (with such a high number of SOG) and how that type of production would be virtually impossible across a team of 20 Ovechkin's, you simply can't handle the truth and the absurd question being asked here in this thread.

Why do you keep bringing up their peaks as if Toews has more of an argument if you just adjusted the stats for full seasons?

you say “can’t handle the truth” yet you continue going against the obvious truth with your what if arguments.

truth is, offensively. Ovechkin is superior, especially in his peak. Go ahead and move some goal posts around to stay away from that fact, I’ll be here to wait for your nonsense.

 

[SimpleJack]

I strenuously object!

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well, pretty much that Toews is/was a winner and during his prime, a team of Toews, in somebody's words in this thread, was pretty much unbeatable. From 10 to 15 Toews won three cups and it was stated Toews team, the Hawks, was a team of Toews.

The closest prime Toews will ever come to prime Ovi was Stamkos in 15. And Toews shut him down in the finals. Completely.

To think a team of prime Toews couldn't shut down prime Ovi is just wishful thinking.

But I do say Current Ovi would mop current Toews.

It wasn’t a team of Toews though, it was a team consisting of top quality players from top to bottom. Don’t forget Toews was paired with Kane during his first cup run while Bolland handled the defensive match ups. He was also shut down in the finals where his team still maintained full control.

2013, he went 20 games while only scoring 1 goal and I think 9 points(?). The offense was carried by guys like Sharp, Kane, Hossa, and Bickell. While guys like Crawford and Keith were very much lights out.

2015, definitely Toews most impressive on both ends of the ice. But let’s not forget his offensive struggles early in the playoffs that were complimented further with being put with Kane. Kane lead his team in points and goals while Keith was by far their best and most valuable player.

Toews only had a goal and 3 points during the 2015 finals. He finished 9th on his own team in scoring that series. Besides, Stamkos was never at the level of peak Ovechkin. Stamkos that year In the playoffs, finished 4th in points and 5th in goals on his team, he wasn’t even their main threat offensively.

 

[wetcoast]

Actually, I have answered the question. We have never seen 20 generational players play with each other through their peaks. It is entirely possible that a team get 100 shots, or whatever you want to believe is necessary. That said, the offensive advantage can maintain through keeping the same ratio of shots between them - something you have continuously refused to address.

It's not what I believe or what you believe, Ovi actually reached those totals based on those SOG, I took the actual stats, so for him to do so he needs do replicate it for all 20 players and not agasint just any NHL team but against a peak Toews who was the top selke guy and 2 way forward in the league by a significant margin in his 3 year peak.

I also laid out the giveaway/takeaway stats for each player in their peaks.

Also their possession stats are very similar so it's basically impossible for Ovi to reach that kind of SOG total in the scenario the OP has presented.

Heck it's pretty unlikely that a team of Ovechkin's even averages half that amount of SOG in the scenario.

You did not lay out any data or reasoning for why those shot counts or shot ratios or the offensive seperation between them would change. Not a single piece of support for that. You essentially just looked at the shot totals, said "nah - that's too high" for Ovechkin, and then because Toews sucks more and is closer to a normal team, you claimed it to be a-okay. You have not substantiated this at all, and every time you have been asked to, you either refuse, deflect, or give up the conversation altogether, only to claim it again in conversations with others.

sure I laid it out based on his actual stats and normalizing each players to pre 60 MPG and the impossibility of that translating to the same ratio against 20 Toews you just keep on saying to quote you above

It is entirely possible that a team get 100 shots

Toews didn't suck more his level of play is more repeatable in this scenario and I even admitted that his totals would go down as well but they are starting at a more reasonable place as he doesn't need an inflated SOG total to reach his offensive production.

Just because the OP laid out a hypothetical impossible question doesn't mean we have to throw logic and reason based on actual stats out the window right?

But I guess you will continue to do so.

 

[spiny norman]

Since many of you here are more interested in attacking each other, I'm closing this one.