20 Toews versus 20 Ovechkins

[SimpleJack]

The level of time and effort GreatGonzo puts towards his Toews(and the Hawks in general) bashing is honestly impressive. I admire the passion. I actually agree with a lot of his points in this particular case too lol...

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

He also played a majority of the year with Kane on the same line. But if your point is that given the right PP opportunities and system, that he would score more, you still aren’t correct no matter how you spin it. Toews has always been given the right opportunities to produce more and score more, but simply isn’t that kind of player.
Again, you can use your logic to suggest that he “would have put up more points” but he didn’t and won’t ever regardless. Toews became crap because he relies heavily on his line mates for production, and he was exposed. It was everything we always said it would be.

What does Giroux have to do with this? He isn’t my boy is that your pitiful way of getting out of the conversation? I’m not the one using hypotheticals to boost Toews up as a better offense player than he actually was/is. I’m not the one who likes to stray away from raw stats and cling to this fairytale world where Toews “would have” scored significantly more if not for the better PP.

Toews also ranks 4th in players and 3rd in forwards among is own team in PP TOI from 2011-14. He had the second most PP time in 2011, the fourth most(second among forwards) in 2013, and third most(second among forwards) In 2014. He shared big PP time With Sharp and Kane In 2011 and 2014, yet didn’t produce more...maybe your argument doesn’t hold up and your “what if’s” mean nothing?

by the way, I’m not a philly fan. Just thought I’d tell you that and save you some embarrassment next time you try to pull a power move.

He doesn't rely on his linemates to carry him, but they do need to play his game. It's more about chemistry than talent. Kubalik-Toews-Saad was an excellent line this year because they play his style of game. Same with Hossa and why they were joined at the hip. Toews has had some shooting % variance late in his career, but for the most part when he has down seasons it's his assists taking a hit and not his goals. In the 2-3 seasons that he's scored fewer goals than his usual 28-30 he's had some lower shooting percentages. That's just puck luck. He averages 71 points per 82 and that's what he was on pace to do this year again.

What makes Toews and Kane such a lethal duo is that Kane's presence allowed Toews to develop into an elite 2 way forward. How come nobody complains that Kane gets easier matchups because Toews takes the opposing top line? It goes both ways.

 

[Varan]

The level of time and effort GreatGonzo puts towards his Toews(and the Hawks in general) bashing is honestly impressive. I admire the passion. I actually agree with a lot of his points in this particular case too lol...

He's not trying to bash Toews, but refute the HORRENDOUS takes people are making in this thread

How this thread is at 13 pages is beyond me

 

[Machinehead]

Both teams would be stupid so you go with the better player.

Why does Toews have votes?

 

[Dekes For Days]

And Toews is far superior defensively.

There's actually very little proof of this.

Most of Ovechkin's value is on the power play.

Ovechkin is significantly better at ES and on the PP.

Ovechkin has averaged 47 5v5 points per 82 games over his career. Toews has averaged 43.

If we take each player's respective 3-year peak, which seems to be the preferred method of approaching this question:

ES P/60

Ovechkin: 3.21
Toews: 2.65

ES P1/60

Ovechkin: 2.77
Toews: 2.17

PP P/60

Ovechkin: 5.68
Toews: 4.54

PP P1/60

Ovechkin: 4.44
Toews: 2.85

A massive difference.

The Hawks were a bad to average PP team during the majority of Toews career.

Partly because Toews was bad on the PP, with limited offensive ability.

If you want evidence, look at the current Blackhawks team. They have fairly talented forwards, deep at center, score a lot of goals, even have had borderline elite goaltending and a decent defense but they can't win solely because their forwards are bad defensively outside of Toews, Saad and Kubalik.

Lol, what? Pretty much none of what you said was accurate about the current Blackhawks team.

As the defense of the Chicago team has deteriorated, there is an exact correlation with declining team defense. Because in reality, Toews was never the majority reason for the good defensive results; the surrounding team (especially the all-star defense) was. Forward defensive impact is grossly, grossly overrated.

 

[Dekes For Days]

During his down years Hossa was on the decline and that had a huge effect on his scoring.

Hmm, maybe we can learn something about Toews' individual offensive ability from this.

What makes Toews and Kane such a lethal duo is that Kane's presence allowed Toews to develop into an elite 2 way forward.

More accurately, Kane helped Toews not get deserved criticism for his lack of offensive ability.

How come nobody complains that Kane gets easier matchups because Toews takes the opposing top line?

Because that's not how that works.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I will expand on my previous post.

Peak Toews is a 40 goal 90 point guy with Selke defense and faceoff % of nearly 60% (probably higher against Ovechkin).

Having the puck 60% of the time (and is a possession monster) and being the better checker makes up for the offensive difference Ovi has IMO.

When did Toews ever score 40 goals or have 90 points at his peak?

I'd take Toews prime over Ovi, Ovi right now over a Toews who is a shell of his former self.

Toews during his peak was as good as it gets as a two way player. He would completely shut down Ovi and win faceoffs and control the puck more.

Toews skating and speed during his 2010-2015 prime is getting a little under rated here. Ovis a better shooter by far, but only if he had the puck.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

There's actually very little proof of this.

Ovechkin is significantly better at ES and on the PP.

If we take each player's respective 3-year peak, which seems to be the preferred method of approaching this question:

ES P/60

Ovechkin: 3.21
Toews: 2.65

ES P1/60

Ovechkin: 2.77
Toews: 2.17

PP P/60

Ovechkin: 5.68
Toews: 4.54

PP P1/60

Ovechkin: 4.44
Toews: 2.85

A massive difference.

Partly because Toews was bad on the PP, with limited offensive ability.

Lol, what? Pretty much none of what you said was accurate about the current Blackhawks team.

As the defense of the Chicago team has deteriorated, there is an exact correlation with declining team defense. Because in reality, Toews was never the majority reason for the good defensive results; the surrounding team (especially the all-star defense) was. Forward defensive impact is grossly, grossly overrated.

I want to agree with you, but Toews and Hossa were a huge reason for alot of the Hawks success. Not taking anything away from the Hawks top four D, who, as you stated, are a huge reason why they were very successful, Toews decline started the second Hossa left. They were both on the same page defensively and Toews, more then ever, needs that to have success in his own end.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Toews decline started the second Hossa left.

Even if this were true, it doesn't really help Toews' defensive argument.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Even if this were true, it doesn't really help Toews' defensive argument.

Well, if we're talking about a team of Toews, in his prime, that's a pretty good argument.

Of Toews had another Toews to lean on, it surely makes him that much better.

Even a mini-Toews

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well, if we're talking about a team of Toews, in his prime, that's a pretty good argument. Of Toews had another Toews to lean on, it surely makes him that much better.

We have seen peak Toews with essentially a bunch of other Toews (or better) around him. That's how he got the defensive metrics and reputation he got, even though his defensive metrics weren't even much better than Ovechkin's through his peak.

What we haven't seen, is 5 generational offensive talents playing together at a time. Ovechkin already holds a bigger advantage in offensive metrics than Toews does in defensive metrics, and Toews' defensive potential has been essentially optimized through his peak, while Ovechkin's offensive help has not come anywhere close to the offensive ability of 4 other Ovechkin-level talents.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you want evidence, look at the current Blackhawks team. They have fairly talented forwards, deep at center, score a lot of goals, even have had borderline elite goaltending and a decent defense but they can't win solely because their forwards are bad defensively outside of Toews, Saad and Kubalik.

The Blackhawks are 18th in the NHL in terms of goals scored. Having a hard time squaring that with what you just said.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yes. I believe Power Play stats have more to do with your teammates and coaching than 5v5 play does.

The Hawks had seasons where they were loaded with forwards and had a crappy PP. That was Quenneville's one failing during his tenure with the Hawks. Another case is when Nashville had a top PP for years while not having any top offensive forwards.

I think you are utterly wrong. Since 2005, the best powerplays in the NHL are the Capitals, Penguins, and Sharks - 3 teams that have had excellent high end offensive talent. It's not a coincidence.

Toews's problem on the powerplay is he's an inferior playmaker to Ovechkin, and a far inferior shooter.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

We have seen peak Toews with essentially a bunch of other Toews (or better) around him. That's how he got the defensive metrics and reputation he got, even though his defensive metrics weren't even much better than Ovechkin's through his peak.

What we haven't seen, is 5 generational offensive talents playing together at a time. Ovechkin already holds a bigger advantage in offensive metrics than Toews does in defensive metrics, and Toews' defensive potential has been essentially optimized through his peak, while Ovechkin's offensive help has not come anywhere close to the offensive ability of 4 other Ovechkin-level talents.

Well, peak Toews won three cups in a six year span, if we're saying we've seen a team of Toews already, and that's hard to argue against.

I don't agree with that, nor do I think a team of Ovis could beat a team of prime Toews, but that's just my opinion.

I do believe Toews, during his peak, was driven extremely hard by Q to the point he will never be that player again, and that this fantasy resurgence he's had the last couple years is just window dressing to pump his offense at the expense of his once stellar defense.

Am I short changing Ovi? I don't think so only because I've seen Toews handle and shut down big, physical players like Getzlaf in big games. Those days are obviously gone and the Ovi of today would probably steam roll Toews easily.

The Toewes from 10-15 was very, very good. Over rated? On these forums, sure, but if it's going to take a team of Ovis to beat a team of Toews, that says more about Toews then it does Ovi

 

[wetcoast]

I think you are utterly wrong. Since 2005, the best powerplays in the NHL are the Capitals, Penguins, and Sharks - 3 teams that have had excellent high end offensive talent. It's not a coincidence.

Toews's problem on the powerplay is he's an inferior playmaker to Ovechkin, and a far inferior shooter.

No idea on what you mean by this, his shooting % and shots that actually make the net are as good or better than Ovi.

Ovi is an extremely high volume shooter with a ton of shots missed as well.

The 3 teams you mentioned do have high offensive talent at all positions along with chemistry.

Sometimes those secondary assists really do mean something about talent eh?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well, peak Toews won three cups in a six year span

Cups are team achievements, not individual. And a lot of luck is involved.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Cups are team achievements, not individual. And a lot of luck is involved.

Isn't this a team of Toews tho?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Isn't this a team of Toews tho?

No; while Toews played a lot with similar defensively-effective players, Chicago is not a team of Toews. And they are not facing a team of Ovechkins.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

No; while Toews played a lot with similar defensively-effective players, Chicago is not a team of Toews. And they are not facing a team of Ovechkins.

So this isn't about 20v20 any more?

 

[Dekes For Days]

So this isn't about 20v20 any more?

This scenario is a team of 20 vs 20. I'm not sure what Chicago and Washington's cups have to do with that.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

This scenario is a team of 20 vs 20. I'm not sure what Chicago and Washington's cups have to do with that.

Well, pretty much that Toews is/was a winner and during his prime, a team of Toews, in somebody's words in this thread, was pretty much unbeatable. From 10 to 15 Toews won three cups and it was stated Toews team, the Hawks, was a team of Toews.

The closest prime Toews will ever come to prime Ovi was Stamkos in 15. And Toews shut him down in the finals. Completely.

To think a team of prime Toews couldn't shut down prime Ovi is just wishful thinking.

But I do say Current Ovi would mop current Toews.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well, pretty much that Toews is/was a winner

His team was a winner.

and during his prime, a team of Toews, in somebody's words in this thread, was pretty much unbeatable.

Chicago did not have 20 Toews, and they were not going against teams of 20 Ovechkins.

The closest prime Toews will ever come to prime Ovi was Stamkos in 15. And Toews shut him down in the finals.

This is a ridiculously small sample, and (one) 14-15 Stamkos was not remotely close to (five) peak Ovechkins.

To think a team of prime Toews couldn't shut down prime Ovi is just wishful thinking.

To think prime Ovechkin wouldn't walk circles around prime Toews is wishful thinking.

 

[Midnight Judges]

To think a team of prime Toews couldn't shut down prime Ovi is just wishful thinking.

Nobody ever shut down peak Ovechkin.

 

[Iapyi]

Okay, I will. Again.

You made this false statement:

I asked you to substantiate:

You did your usual avoidance technique of turning it around on the other person:

And even though I did substantiate my position:

You have continued to refuse to answer to that or anything you claim.

Quit playing silly bugger. These were all addressed within the thread, we both know it. Your deflection attempts don't change that. You are an extremely boring poster to attempt discussion with, a self serving narrow minded myopic point of view is just out and out yawn worthy.

 

[Varan]

Nobody ever shut down peak Ovechkin.

it's weird, the poster said how current OV would easily beat current Toews, but PRIME OV would get shut down. lmao