GDT: #20 – Sabres at Stars – Sat Nov 21, 8:00PM ET – MSG-B, Bell TV

[OkimLom]

Refreshing honesty. Reinhart has been OK, but his skating and board play still leaves a lot to be desired. And when he is being outplayed by numerous forwards from the same draft, it's a worthy conversation whether people want to hear it or not. In a redraft, right now he'd probably be the 4th, maybe fifth forward taken. Draisaitl, Bennett, Larkin, and possibly Ehlers. Murray was hired specifically to get that draft right.

And it's too soon to say he didn't. But it don't matter since Reinhart will always be looked at as apparently the 5th best forward to you.

There's nothing wrong with criticizing Reinharts play and rightfully so some people are, but to bring up how someone else from that draft is doing and how it was the wrong choice, its becoming nauseating.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Huh?

Dan Bylsma did and they've been together for several games.

Not many options. ROR or Eichel are getting stuck with bad wings no matter what Dan does. Its going to be like this until Ennis starts being a top 6 player.

 

[OkimLom]

Not many options. ROR or Eichel are getting stuck with bad wings no matter what Dan does.

How about:

Eichel-ROR-Reinhart
Kane-Larsson-Ennis
Gionta-Girgensons-McGinn
Moulson-Legwand-Deslauiers

 

[Sabre Dance]

How about:

Eichel-ROR-Reinhart
Kane-Larsson-Ennis
Gionta-Girgensons-McGinn
Moulson-Legwand-Deslauiers

I dont know.

IMO the best 6 players have been, in no order, ROR, Eichel, Reinhart, Kane, Girgensons, and McGinn.

I would say, and its changed a million times, my top 6 is...

Kane - ROR - Reinhart
McGinn - Eichel- Girgensons (Maybe play Girgs at C and Eichel at wing)

Bottom 6
Ennis - Larsson - Gionta
Moulson - Legwand - Des

 

[joshjull]

Not many options. ROR or Eichel are getting stuck with bad wings no matter what Dan does. Its going to be like this until Ennis starts being a top 6 player.

You could put Eichel on ROR's wing. It would allow Eichel to have less responsibility defensively since he's not center. He's been struggling quite a bit the last few weeks. But he would still get challenged going against the best every night. It would also give us an incredible two way line with the "pair" of ROR/Eichel anchoring it.

You then have Reinhart, Girgs and Larsson as options to center lines 2 and 3.

 

[Sabre Dance]

You could put Eichel on ROR's wing. It would allow Eichel to have less responsibility defensively since he's not center. He's been struggling quite a bit the last few weeks. But he would still get challenged going against the best every night. It would also give us an incredible two way line with the "pair" of ROR/Eichel anchoring it.

You then have Reinhart, Girgs and Larsson as options to center lines 2 and 3.

Ive liked Reinhart more than Eichel without the puck so I would pencil in ROR and Reinhart as a pair right now. I think Kane's style would fit in well with these two.

I may try Eichel on Girgenson's wing. Then put McGinn at the other Wing. McGinn has looked good with Eichel IMO, the few times they have played together. McGinn also likes to work in front of the net and has the speed to keep up.

 

[joshjull]

Ive liked Reinhart more than Eichel without the puck so I would pencil in ROR and Reinhart as a pair right now. I think Kane's style would fit in well with these two.

I may try Eichel on Girgenson's wing. Then put McGinn at the other Wing. McGinn has looked good with Eichel IMO, the few times they have played together. McGinn also likes to work in front of the net and has the speed to keep up.

I like these ideas as well. But if I were a betting man, I bet Bylsma goes right back to Girgs as the 3rd line center when he returns with ROR/Eichel as the top 6 centers.

 

[joshjull]

I would also like to see Bylsma try to develop our bottom 6. Part of that is giving the 4th line minutes. The last two games their ice time was ridiculously low. Tim Murray made it pretty clear that the type of team he is looking to build has a 4th line that plays about 9 minutes a night. Not 5-6min. This would allow the top players to be fresher if we need to make a push late in a game. He can't keep riding a handful of forwards every game.

 

[Sabre the Win]

The problem is we dont have adequate depth yet; and we have a few anchors. Its not hard to see this team is not in the contend mode yet. Its also obvious this is an experiment year. If you read the Bylsma article posted earlier on page 1 or 2 he said the difference between coaching Pittsburgh and the Sabres is that the Sabres aren't in win now mode. This season is basically trials for future consideration considering we have quite a few RFA/UFA's needing contracts this year. Therefore that would explain the sporadic and bad player usage.

I know it; Murray knows it; Byslma knows it they are still hoping for a decent draft position this year and this is the year we stock up on Wingers since last year was D.

PS - I hate the power forward. We have tried to have good power forwards and they dont work. Mold Eichel into a playmaking center.

 

[Man of Principles]

Kane-ROR-Reinhart
McGinn-Eichel-Ennis
Moulson-Larsson-Gionta
Deslauriers-Girgensons-Foligno

Zemgus needs to earn his way back into the top 9 after coming back from injury. He's had a quiet year and we need more from him. Honestly I'm not seeing anywhere else to put Ennis, but I like Jack and McGinn together.

 

[dotcommunism]

I would also like to see Bylsma try to develop our bottom 6. Part of that is giving the 4th line minutes. The last two games their ice time was ridiculously low. Tim Murray made it pretty clear that the type of team he is looking to build has a 4th line that plays about 9 minutes a night. Not 5-6min. This would allow the top players to be fresher if we need to make a push late in a game. He can't keep riding a handful of forwards every game.

See, now you're cherry picking. You're treating a handful of games as if they're representative. In addition to O'Reilly not averaging 25 minutes per game, Deslauriers, Legwand and McGinn (the lowest forwards in TOI/game other than Schaller) are averaging about 10-11 minutes per game, not 5-6.

Unless these skewed ice times end up being continuing trends beyond a few games, there's not really any reason to assume that they reflect a shift in player usage in general rather than Bylsma changing how he divvies up ice time based on the opponent (and game situation).

Edit: This isn't to say that there aren't issues in who Bylsma chooses to give more minutes to (i.e. Gionta), but how he's dividing up the minutes isn't anywhere near as skewed, over the season, as you're portraying it.

 

[BowieSabresFan]

Refreshing honesty. Reinhart has been OK, but his skating and board play still leaves a lot to be desired. And when he is being outplayed by numerous forwards from the same draft, it's a worthy conversation whether people want to hear it or not. In a redraft, right now he'd probably be the 4th, maybe fifth forward taken. Draisaitl, Bennett, Larkin, and possibly Ehlers. Murray was hired specifically to get that draft right.

Actually, Reinhart has been very good so far this year. He's been playing a very quiet, smart game all year. He knows where to be, and when. He is never going to be the highlight reel guy, so those who judge someone based on that will never see him for what he is.

It's highly debatable that he is the 4th or 5th best from that draft, and I would take him over all but a couple of offensive players on this team right now.

 

[Punished ROR]

I also liked McGinn with Eichel. McGinn created a lot of havoc along the boards with his body and high energy play, and that jives with Eichel's more perimeter-style game. Once Eichel gets better about figuring out how to find/slip into open, high % shooting areas, he'll really benefit from a pairing like that.

I agree that Eichel would benefit from getting some time with ROR to build his confidence and see the game from another perspective. I know Eichel's future is at C, but he's really not using his teammates well -- he only really creates offense off the rush at this point. Get him some playing time with a cerebral guy like ROR, who creates by cycling and breaking the D down, and maybe things will start to click for Jack. Who knows, it might really pay off in the long term.

With skaters playing to their potential, and with Girgs back, I'd try:

Kane-ROR-Ennis *
McGinn-Eichel-Reinhart
Moulson-Girgensons-Larsson
Foligno/Des-Legwand-Gionta

*I hate to put Ennis and Kane on the same line, but Ennis is one of the most problematic skaters to ice. ROR's patient/sit-back-and-see-WTF-my-teammates-are-going-to-do play style would help cover the mistakes of two guys that tend to play with reckless abandon, while also playing to their strengths.

... But actually, in trying to build these lines, you realize what a mess the makeup of this roster is. It's hard when you've got guys like Kane and Ennis who don't really use teammates well. Especially Ennis, who carries the puck, but whose turnovers make him a defensive liability, and yet isn't a top line threat. And even Eichel, for that matter, though I'm not dogging him for it -- he's young and learning. Like someone said earlier, his individual talent is so great it's totally likely he hasn't really had to learn how to get the most out of smart positioning yet.

That said, I am not willing to defend Bylsma on his Moulson-ROR-Gionta masterpiece. I can defend him for trying it but at this point he has to understand that it's broken and try something else.

Hopefully, that's the silver lining of this shutout. I was honestly kind of waiting for a blowout/bad loss before he broke Moulson-ROR-Gionta up. Now's your chance Disco, don't disappoint.

 

[joshjull]

Kane-ROR-Reinhart
McGinn-Eichel-Ennis
Moulson-Larsson-Gionta
Deslauriers-Girgensons-Foligno

Zemgus needs to earn his way back into the top 9 after coming back from injury. He's had a quiet year and we need more from him. Honestly I'm not seeing anywhere else to put Ennis, but I like Jack and McGinn together.

Considering how much Bylsma loves Girgs and how much he likes to use him defensively. There is little chance Girgs centers the 4th line.

 

[joshjull]

See, now you're cherry picking. You're treating a handful of games as if they're representative. In addition to O'Reilly not averaging 25 minutes per game, Deslauriers, Legwand and McGinn (the lowest forwards in TOI/game other than Schaller) are averaging about 10-11 minutes per game, not 5-6.

I made it pretty clear I was referring to the last two games with the 4th lines ice time. I also never said anything about ROR averaging 25mins a night. Though I did say previously its not good to have ROR play 25mins in a night. He's currently averaging 21:44 a night. Only Risto is averaging more of the players who have played a good chunk of games.

Btw the players you referenced have played up and down the lineup. So their average ice time is not a direct reflection of how the 4th line is used. Legwand is probably the closest but he has extra d-zone starts in place of others outside of his 4th line shifts.

Unless these skewed ice times end up being continuing trends beyond a few games, there's not really any reason to assume that they reflect a shift in player usage in general rather than Bylsma changing how he divvies up ice time based on the opponent (and game situation).

Bylsma's heavy reliance on ROR has been going on for quite some time. This is not a new development.

Edit: This isn't to say that there aren't issues in who Bylsma chooses to give more minutes to (i.e. Gionta), but how he's dividing up the minutes isn't anywhere near as skewed, over the season, as you're portraying it.

Really? Go back and look at the ice times. He's been giving a large amount of minutes to a small group of forwards. Its been going on for quite some time. The only thing thats really changed is Ennis fell out of the group in recent games. before that he was averaging 20+mins a night.

 

[sabrebuild]

I like the Armageddon style line of

Kane ROR Ennis.

Let the wings go balls out and ROR clean up the mess. Forecheck would be excellent and maybe they cash in.

Definitely a strong defensive group that could check other team's top lines. At least ROR would have two live bodies that can play at a top level pace.

And when it inevitably fails as a line we can just spin the disco dan wheel of lines.

 

[stokes84]

I like the Armageddon style line of

Kane ROR Ennis.

Let the wings go balls out and ROR clean up the mess. Forecheck would be excellent and maybe they cash in.

Definitely a strong defensive group that could check other team's top lines. At least ROR would have two live bodies that can play at a top level pace.

And when it inevitably fails as a line we can just spin the disco dan wheel of lines.

What's armageddonstyle about it? It's what they were going with in preseason and it was succeeding. Bylsma inexplicably changed it up before the first game and never looked back. It was bizarre then, and it's still bizarre.

 

[sabrebuild]

What's armageddonstyle about it? It's what they were going with in preseason and it was succeeding. Bylsma inexplicably changed it up before the first game and never looked back. It was bizarre then, and it's still bizarre.

Hmm, perhaps I should have referred to it as boom bust.

That line is either stupendous or a train wreck.