GDT: 2/23/13 - Wild @ Flames 9:00 PM CST - Jinx edition
- Thread starter Sharppi
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SwimToTheMoon
Wild fan in WPG
Fletcher is FAR from the problem right now. Anyone expecting us to can Fletcher can keep dreaming. A GM needs at least 4-5 years to put their stamp on a crappy team and to fix everything the past GM screwed up.
Jarick
Doing Nothing
Yes. Other teams do dump and chase, but not all the time. Good teams will carry the puck over the blue line much, much more than the Wild do. If all you do is dump and chase, the other team will just stop moving and block your forecheck. If you mix it up sometimes and handle the puck, they have to respect the option and keep moving. Wild don't mix it up nearly enough.
There is no reason for you to apologize. I am and always will be a target on this board and for good reason. If you can argue the issue (and not the poster), I'm all for a healthy discussion and debate. Sometimes we get a bit heated and arguments will break out that aren't so healthy but that's what happens. We are, for the most part, big hockey fans that have a difference of a opinion on how things are ran. I see patterns develop and recognize them quicker and easier than most people.
As for this team, I really don't know the issue. It seems to be a very wide and deep problem.
I think even dropping Heatley is somewhat unrealistic, because his trade value is at an all-time low, the organization loves him and right now it looks like the buyout will have to be used on Harding. There are strong arguments for why Heatley should go, he's regressing at an alarming rate after all and is pretty much useless on any line you put him on. But I just don't see it happening in the near future.
However, there are no arguments for getting rid of Koivu. Of course I'd like to see more goals and more points, but that goes for every single player on this team, even Parise. Koivu and Parise have been the best forwards on this team this season and I have very few issues with his on-ice performance. He's not on his way out and is one of the untouchables of this organization, despite what you think and hope. But you're going to see what you want to see and you've obviously had your opinion for quite a while.
You'd be hard pressed to come up with a trade suggestion involving Koivu that would a) make sense for both parties and b) be realistic. If someone were to trade a center of that caliber, it would be someone who's a total cancer in the locker room. You really want that?
For all we know Harding will retire and will be given a cushy job with the Wild. They take care of their own.
Parise is scoring about as well as anyone on this team could. Here's the thing, Koivu led a player only meeting and this is the results of that meeting? His soundbites also sound really canned. I mean come on, at least Parise doesn't dance around the issue and when he's not sick, Parise has turned around games. That's what we need to see from Koivu. We were paying for potential on Koivu and he hasn't performed. I had hoped his 71 point season was just the start but nope. He's either been sitting on the sideline or letting the team go down the drain.
The thing is, we're paying Koivu elite money when he's not an elite player. He's a good player. A solid top 6 forward but he's not an elite forward. Parise is an elite forward. Heatley WAS an elite forward.
You calling Joe Thornton? Brad Richards cancers in the locker room? Jordan Staal? Mike Richards and Jeff Carter, sure, there were rumors.
I agree that Parise is scoring just as well as anybody could on this team. But I wouldn't undermine Koivu's production like you do. I haven't seen where he has "let the team go down the drain" any more than Parise has. But like I said, you see what you want to see.
I haven't seen anything worth complaining about, but you've obviously seen it for much longer than this season. And like I've said before, I don't give a flying **** about what the players say in post-game interviews. Same ****, different day. If I took a drink every time someone said "we just didn't show up", I'd be able to get totally wasted every single night. Then they move on to the next game and a lot of the time end up saying the same thing again. It's about as cliched as it gets, but like I said, I don't care.
As for the money, you think Koivu wouldn't have gotten the same money as a UFA? Some other team would've offered it to him, there weren't that many high-quality UFAs that summer. A lot of good players in this league are overpaid and for example there's no way I would've paid Suter the money he ended up getting, but if we hadn't done it, someone would have. It's not the players' fault they have money thrown at them. Most sane people would go for the team offering the most money if they had little preference on where to live, who to play with, etc. My point here is that if you want to call Koivu overpaid, you need to say the same thing about Heatley, Suter and even Parise (considering his current point total is the same as Koivu's).
As for the locker room cancer issue, there are of course exceptions, like J. Staal. He is a fine 2nd line center on any team, but unfortunately for him he happened to be stuck behind Crosby and Malkin. Pittsburgh had three top 6 centers. How many teams are in the same situation now? None. The kind of trades you want to make don't happen often and mostly exist in fantasies. And making that kind of a trade would mean that the Wild had to have at least some interest in giving up Koivu, which they do not have.
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I'm giving Parise a bit of a pass, because he's new to this organization and he will defer to the Koivu. You remember how surprised he looked to have an A on his jersey already.
Koivu is suppose to be this franchise player. And yet he hasn't shown that talent yet. Koivu has as many goals as Cullen and Setoguchi.
It starts to mean something when it's a guy that is suppose to be leading the team. This guy is the guy that everyone looks at. Yes, it might not be great to call people out specifically in the media but to say, yeah some of the guys just didn't bring it. Just really grind into them.
I think he would have gotten more actually but that's beside the point. You think Gaborik is worth the 9-10 million we would have spent on him if he decided to come back?
No, I wouldn't either. But what done is done.
No, because Koivu is being paid like an elite player. Heatley, when his contract was signed, he was an elite player and was not overpaid. Parise is the same way. Suter is a wash (getting a number 1 defenseman is as difficult as getting a legitimate 1st line center). Would Koivu have signed if we offered lower? I'm not going to say Parise or Heatley is overpaid, because it's a different situation. Heatley only has 2 years left on his contract and he was being paid as a 40-50 goal scorer at the time. Parise is a top 3 left wing. I can't say that about Koivu and being a center. I can't say he's a top 5 or even top 10 center. Top 15-30 sure. But he's getting paid like one.
Pittsburgh was also having issues with the cap. But that doesn't mean they needed to trade Staal immediately especially with the uncertainty of Crosby health.
And that's the problem. Koivu is not going to be seen as someone that can be traded because he's like the Jay Bouwmeester of centers. He has a high contract hit for his production value.
The kind of trades that happen is because the team is going in a different direction than the players on it or they want to free up some cap room to go after different players. Sometimes, they just want to retool their team.
Again Brad Richards and Joe Thornton come to mind immediately.
Jarick
Doing Nothing
TSK, I've already shown that Koivu is a top 30 point producing center in the NHL. By definition, that makes him a top line center. No, he's not elite. But he's a top line center.
It makes no sense to trade Koivu. Why would you do it? You're not going to get a player better than him in the deal. Just some spare parts. He's under contract long term and still in his prime.
Are you going to turn that top line center spot over to Brodziak? He was our top line center half of last year and scored a whopping 44 points. Which is what Mikko scored in 55 games. Brodziak played 82. Oh yeah, and Mikko was a +10 while Brodz was a -15.
Literally the only thing he doesn't do is score goals. He sets them up. That's fine. Put goal scorers on the line with him. Put Seto on that right wing. I'll forgive Koivu for only getting 15 goals a year if his linemates combine for 50+.
You say you want this team to get better but you want to trade one of the best forwards on the team? How exactly does that make the team better again?
Because we need to rebuild? What have we ever built? Who are the aging cornerstones of the team? We already moved off all the old players. Gaborik and Brunette and Schultz and Walz and everyone from the mid 2000's.
We're still building. We brought in Parise and Suter and Havlat. Moved Havlat, Burns, and Schultz for Heatley, Setoguchi, Coyle, and Gilbert. We drafted Granlund, Zucker, Larsson, Dumba, Phillips, Bulmer, and some very good goalies.
This is year one of the transition to youth. We're like one quarter of the way through the first year of that transition. Now is not the time to jettison players who help that transition and are still high end NHL'ers.
Does Mikko need to step it up? Hell yes he does. He has 3 points in his last 11 games. But he had 8 points in the previous 6 games. But so does Parise. He has 3 points in his last 12 games. But he had 9 points in the previous 5 games.
It's looking like maybe we ought to split those two up and try to get everyone going. The entire team is so easy to shut down right now. It's hard to point at one or two players when the entire offense has been sputtering for a solid month.
At first I shrugged it off as the depth players not doing well as the top line was brilliant, but now it's looking more like a team/system issue. And Yeo scolds the players for getting into a "track meet"? If Koivu doesn't whiff that one timer, the Wild are up 1-0, not down 1-0. One mistake doesn't mean you completely stop trying to generate offense. And we keep slipping down on the PP as well, getting worse and worse, and the PP is so bad that it completely derails the team for the rest of the night? Yikes.
It makes no sense to trade Koivu. Why would you do it? You're not going to get a player better than him in the deal. Just some spare parts. He's under contract long term and still in his prime.
Are you going to turn that top line center spot over to Brodziak? He was our top line center half of last year and scored a whopping 44 points. Which is what Mikko scored in 55 games. Brodziak played 82. Oh yeah, and Mikko was a +10 while Brodz was a -15.
Literally the only thing he doesn't do is score goals. He sets them up. That's fine. Put goal scorers on the line with him. Put Seto on that right wing. I'll forgive Koivu for only getting 15 goals a year if his linemates combine for 50+.
You say you want this team to get better but you want to trade one of the best forwards on the team? How exactly does that make the team better again?
Because we need to rebuild? What have we ever built? Who are the aging cornerstones of the team? We already moved off all the old players. Gaborik and Brunette and Schultz and Walz and everyone from the mid 2000's.
We're still building. We brought in Parise and Suter and Havlat. Moved Havlat, Burns, and Schultz for Heatley, Setoguchi, Coyle, and Gilbert. We drafted Granlund, Zucker, Larsson, Dumba, Phillips, Bulmer, and some very good goalies.
This is year one of the transition to youth. We're like one quarter of the way through the first year of that transition. Now is not the time to jettison players who help that transition and are still high end NHL'ers.
Does Mikko need to step it up? Hell yes he does. He has 3 points in his last 11 games. But he had 8 points in the previous 6 games. But so does Parise. He has 3 points in his last 12 games. But he had 9 points in the previous 5 games.
It's looking like maybe we ought to split those two up and try to get everyone going. The entire team is so easy to shut down right now. It's hard to point at one or two players when the entire offense has been sputtering for a solid month.
At first I shrugged it off as the depth players not doing well as the top line was brilliant, but now it's looking more like a team/system issue. And Yeo scolds the players for getting into a "track meet"? If Koivu doesn't whiff that one timer, the Wild are up 1-0, not down 1-0. One mistake doesn't mean you completely stop trying to generate offense. And we keep slipping down on the PP as well, getting worse and worse, and the PP is so bad that it completely derails the team for the rest of the night? Yikes.
I still say the Wild need to put in a patsy to get an instant penalty (like catch the PP faceoff drop and dive backwards with it to do a Gollum impression) the second they go on the power play. It's amazing how that can not only be so ineffective, but actually kill all their momentum. A 4-on-4 is better for everyone.
But anyways, we can pick apart the team and the game all we want, but it was a loss before it even started when they kept going over how awful Calgary is, at home, this season, with the moon however full on a 4th Saturday in February when a moose was spotted eating poutine in the prime minister's bathroom. And I'm pretty sure they pulled those stats out of an upside-down Bible that burst into flames when they flipped to that page.
You know what, helpful homer commentators? Tell us how unscoring the Wild are. After making it halfway through February without scoring more than one goal in regulation, those fun stats started popping up nonstop and they went three in a row with three goals (which was the next streak to get brought up). I don't want to hear about how bad the other team's record is for this set of specific events. I want to hear about how slow Heatley is. What's slower than Heatley? There's tons of room for your trivia there. He's still coming off the ice from his first shift in Calgary. The Flames repainted their logo for their next home game and it's got a weird light trail in it from where they had to paint around him as he made his way to the bench. Tell me how slow he is, how many games it's been since he scored. Since he scored two. Since he got a hat trick. "You know, Heatley's gone 670 games without scoring two goals or more when attendance was exactly 16,782 on bobblehead night, so it's pretty unlikely we'll see much from him tonight. He's also never passed anybody on the ice during whale mating season, which started last week." "Ryan Suter is now on minute 372 of not scoring while wearing a Wild jersey. We'll update you every time that number changes." "Koivu is now in his 502nd consecutive game without scoring 8 points in one period." These are stats I want you to inform me of. I don't want to know that nobody on the other team has worn skates before, and that they all stuck their hands out the windows on the flight over and every single one of them had to be amputated, and that no handless backup team with ice allergies has ever beaten the Wild by more than two goals.
So just give me this one thing. That's all. Because otherwise I am left to rely on the players.
But anyways, we can pick apart the team and the game all we want, but it was a loss before it even started when they kept going over how awful Calgary is, at home, this season, with the moon however full on a 4th Saturday in February when a moose was spotted eating poutine in the prime minister's bathroom. And I'm pretty sure they pulled those stats out of an upside-down Bible that burst into flames when they flipped to that page.
You know what, helpful homer commentators? Tell us how unscoring the Wild are. After making it halfway through February without scoring more than one goal in regulation, those fun stats started popping up nonstop and they went three in a row with three goals (which was the next streak to get brought up). I don't want to hear about how bad the other team's record is for this set of specific events. I want to hear about how slow Heatley is. What's slower than Heatley? There's tons of room for your trivia there. He's still coming off the ice from his first shift in Calgary. The Flames repainted their logo for their next home game and it's got a weird light trail in it from where they had to paint around him as he made his way to the bench. Tell me how slow he is, how many games it's been since he scored. Since he scored two. Since he got a hat trick. "You know, Heatley's gone 670 games without scoring two goals or more when attendance was exactly 16,782 on bobblehead night, so it's pretty unlikely we'll see much from him tonight. He's also never passed anybody on the ice during whale mating season, which started last week." "Ryan Suter is now on minute 372 of not scoring while wearing a Wild jersey. We'll update you every time that number changes." "Koivu is now in his 502nd consecutive game without scoring 8 points in one period." These are stats I want you to inform me of. I don't want to know that nobody on the other team has worn skates before, and that they all stuck their hands out the windows on the flight over and every single one of them had to be amputated, and that no handless backup team with ice allergies has ever beaten the Wild by more than two goals.
So just give me this one thing. That's all. Because otherwise I am left to rely on the players.
Top line center sure, but he's not an elite center but being paid for one. The other problem is that it is looking more and more like his 71 point season is an anomaly. We were paying him for potential that just isn't there.
Why? To wake up this team? To tell the team, we're going in an absolutely different direction and that it's time to move on past the Koivu era of this team. We moved on from the Gaborik era. We may not be able to get a better player now in a trade but it would open up so much cap room for this team to look for another player. Hell, ask Capitals what they want for Backstrom and see. They need a good scrubbing.
Why not turn it over to Granlund? Everyone is clamoring him to take up the top line spot anyways.
I don't. He needs to score at least 20-25 yearly, especially at what he's getting paid. But he's either injured or not producing. He's not shooting the puck when we need him to. And he's going to lose a step or two.
By giving this team a new identity and a new plan. Instead of building around a two-way defensive center, build around a dynamic scorer in Parise. By waking this team up. By freeing up cap room. I see this like Boston. Good years but never really taking the next step.
We don't need to rebuild but retool.
And that's the problem. We've moved so many players and yet nothing is fitting because we are building around the wrong player.
I'm giving more of a leeway to Parise only because he's new and the team isn't built around him. Furthermore, Koivu is suppose to be the play maker on the front line. Set up the plays and get people producing. The catalyst of the offense and he isn't. He has as many goals as Cullen and Setoguchi.
PP is an issue and Yeo is looking like an issue but the fact that this team tried to respond by having a team only meeting, and this is the result? I still question where the leadership is on this team. Words can only mean so much. They need to put up or shut up.
I think Koivu is a good player, maybe even great. I think he takes more blame than he deserves, yes, he isn't lighting up the scoreboard, but in general we do not get a lot of point production from the center position. (Cullen lately, but he's hit or miss) If we had a good scoring 2nd line center(Jeff Carter?), I don't think this would be an issue. But, since our centers do not produce much, Koivu takes a lot of heat for not tearing it up. Again, Koivu is a good player, but he would be great with a point scoring 2nd Center. Like a 1A/1B kind of situation where someone would compliment his two way game with pure offense.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, I need to go to bed.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, I need to go to bed.
I understand what you're saying but for me, it's about production vs cost vs what else he provides. He's taking a lot of heat from me because we built this team around him and it is looking more and more like a square peg/round hole situation.
Jarick
Doing Nothing
Why search for bargain bin deals when you have a guaranteed top 30 player at the position? Actually #18 in point production per game since 2008-09.
It's not Fletcher's job to "shake up the team". It's Mike Yeo's. You're not supposed to have to trade players to get their attention. If it comes to that, you need a different coach.
Also, Koivu's not the only guy who's struggling. If he were the only one, yes you may have a point with the square peg round hole bit. But who is this system really working out for?
And who do you want to build around? Parise? If so, we need to find a center who can get the puck deep and work the boards and cycle with him, feed it back and forth out front...isn't that Koivu?
It's not Fletcher's job to "shake up the team". It's Mike Yeo's. You're not supposed to have to trade players to get their attention. If it comes to that, you need a different coach.
Also, Koivu's not the only guy who's struggling. If he were the only one, yes you may have a point with the square peg round hole bit. But who is this system really working out for?
And who do you want to build around? Parise? If so, we need to find a center who can get the puck deep and work the boards and cycle with him, feed it back and forth out front...isn't that Koivu?
Blizzard6411
#benchstoner
Heatley is the square peg in a round hole. People are so concerned about replacing his 24 goals (a pace that continues to drop and by the end of this week it will probably be under 20) they don't stop to think about how much he is hurting Koivus and Parises production. The player who replaces Heatley doesn't have to equal him in goals if the whole line sees an increase in points without Dany slowing them down.
These people who want Koivu gone are nuts, there isn't another center on this team who could cover Danys slow ass and floating around watching. Move Heatley permanently out of that line and then leave him off of it forever. Find Koivu and Parise their line mate that they are going to play with for years forward, if Coyle doesn't work then next man up. The future is centered around Koivu and Parise, not Koivu, Parise and Heatley. Heatley lovers have no reason to freak out because the Wild are on the fringe of a playoff spot without Dany or that top line doing much of anything so what is the difference if they try Coyle for a good stretch?
These people who want Koivu gone are nuts, there isn't another center on this team who could cover Danys slow ass and floating around watching. Move Heatley permanently out of that line and then leave him off of it forever. Find Koivu and Parise their line mate that they are going to play with for years forward, if Coyle doesn't work then next man up. The future is centered around Koivu and Parise, not Koivu, Parise and Heatley. Heatley lovers have no reason to freak out because the Wild are on the fringe of a playoff spot without Dany or that top line doing much of anything so what is the difference if they try Coyle for a good stretch?
Team's don't give our forwards much respect though. And why should they, Fletcher didn't build this team on speed or skill. Teams force us to dump it and we can't come back out with the puck. Try to drive the puck into the zone, there's only a couple guys capable of doing that on a consistent basis.
Its Fletcher's job to surround Mike Yeo with players capable of playing his system. We're almost 20 games into this year and I can't say we've had one game that Mike Yeo should be happy with how the Wild played for 60 minutes schematically. Effort has been there plenty nights, but when you don't know what you're supposed to be doing, then your linemates don't know what to do either and effort only goes so far.
If the players are refusing to buy in, Mike Yeo should be fired, because if he can't communicate with the players he has no business coaching them. But when Zach Parise and Ryan Suter signed with the Wild they signed to play for Mike Yeo, so its would surprise me if a mutiny happened already. But if its not a mutiny, then what is the excuse? Are players still not mentally prepared to play the game? That's inexcusable on the players' part.
Zach Parise and Ryan Suter reached out to Dany Heatley prior to signing with the Wild. He has the respect of our top players. We have moved him off that top line multiple times, much to my surprise and he's impressed me with how he's responded at times, which along with the lack of success of his replacement is why Yeo constantly moves him back up. Charlie Coyle had his stretch, and missed 5+ goals easily. He's going to have to do alot to earn that opportunity again, though his goal last game was a solid start. I'm not 100% sold that taking Dany Heatley off the top line makes us a better team. I wouldn't mind giving Granlund/Bouchard/Setoguchi an opportunity on that line, but we've got to make the other lines work too.
Ofcourse Yeo has the respect of the top players, he sticks with them no matter what. Koivu could go pointless the whole year and he wouldn't split him up with Parise.
People talk about how Yeo is juggling the lines and its ruining everything but he isn't changing the lines anywhere close to as much as JL.
Changing the lines for Yeo means move 1 player.
To free up cap space and to give the team a shake up it needs.
It's not? Then why trade for Rupp? For Kobasew? Why would a team trade at all? Fletcher has to have a pulse on the team as well as Yeo. If he sees that Yeo is trying his hardest and the team isn't responding again and again, why is it Yeo's fault?
We are building around Koivu. We've been trying to bring in guys that fit with him. Havlat, Heatley, Setoguchi, Parise. Only Parise seems to have build.
We need to find a center that can produce and has some elite talents to work with Parise. That's Granlund in his prime. I would definitely check out some of Backstrom. But the point is, if you shut down Parise, who is stepping up?
tomgilbertfan
#WhyBother
Haite
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- Jun 27, 2011
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Or a loss and we're fifth in the Division. Detroit is sitting 5th in the Conference and is 3 points ahead.
yes, conference. sorry! detroit is only 2 points ahead according to NHL.com with 19 games played vs. our 17.
holy **** i can't count. LOL okay good god you're right.
tomgilbertfan
#WhyBother
I was about to say If we get a win and are somehow 5th in our division the panicking people may not be wrong.
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