Line Combos: 1st vs. 2nd line - time to split up Ehlers - Little - Laine? Mod Warning Post #552

[martin langlois]

no laine will produce with scheifele but maurice dont want that he love his veterans and he hess kness in front the vets like losers byfuglien and wheeler and little

 

[TheFeistyFinn]

scheif or no scheif. it won't fix those cement legs of laine.

 

[grieves]

I have a question. If and when Laine and Scheif get back together and Laine doesn't produce to some fans expectations should we trade Scheifele so we can find an even better center to unleash Pate's repressed potential. Just trying to get a jump on the solution when Mark lets down the Laine Ultra's?

LOL, stay classy.

How about we cross that bridge when we get there. We have data to show that is unlikely to happen, but if it does, then we can be worried.

If it does work, you will of course immediately eat crow and think about your posts in the future as they clearly have been misguided for this season?

 

[Halberdier]

I have a question. If and when Laine and Scheif get back together and Laine doesn't produce to some fans expectations should we trade Scheifele so we can find an even better center to unleash Pate's repressed potential. Just trying to get a jump on the solution when Mark lets down the Laine Ultra's?

I guess so. Trade him for Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux and let them play together with Laine 60 mins / game.

Currently the guy that doesn't seem to get anything going is not Laine, but Scheifele, Mark. Last season Scheifele had quite similar slump almost the same time, so that is just temporary, hopefully. CSW (or ESW which is 99% the same anyway) is not working. Currently it's even worse than ELL, as ELL is still somewhat working defensively despite recent 2-3 goals against that should have been prevented.

Laine is maybe not a magic wand that will immediately get Scheifele into the game again, but I'm confident it would be better than what is now happening on ice. Laine would bring some responsible D for Scheifele, as Wheeler is in his current form definitely not providing and Connor never did. So many odd man rushes have been happening lately against the 1st line.

 

[Halberdier]

no laine will produce with scheifele but maurice dont want that he love his veterans and he hess kness in front the vets like losers byfuglien and wheeler and little

Well, I would not exactly call Buff, Wheeler and Little losers, but you are entitled to your rude opinion.

Also Buff has finally been the Big D this season and not the 4th F he was way too often last season. Couple of bad games this season, but otherwise usually just great.

 

[FonRiesen]

Wheeler should be playing with Little at least occasionally. They've had years of good hockey together, and I think Little needs a break from trying to be Mr Mentor on line 2. If vet's opinions matter so much, call the [pick your top winger]-Little-Wheeler line #1, who cares. At this point, it really won't hurt, and maybe will jumpstart 2 lines, which would make the Jets' offense deadly.

 

[Positive]

scheif or no scheif. it won't fix those cement legs of laine.

Scheif used to be an awful skater. Weak on his skates, getting knocked over constantly, and not particularly fast even when out in the open. But he's completely transformed now.

Maybe that's all Laine needs...a few years of growing into his body, conditioning and working on power skating.

Hopefully. But right now his legs do look like cement, especially in contrast to Ehlers on his line who generally flies down the ice like he stole something.

 

[ps241]

LOL, stay classy.

How about we cross that bridge when we get there. We have data to show that is unlikely to happen, but if it does, then we can be worried.

If it does work, you will of course immediately eat crow and think about your posts in the future as they clearly have been misguided for this season?

My posts haven't been misguided I have no problem if they play Scheif and Laine together nor do I have much of an issue if they play Scheif and Wheeler together? Hey if Scheif and Laine produce its only a net postive if Wheeler and Little produce as well right? I have no real issues with blending.

Hey class took the first train out of town when this thread was created so as a Jets fan I have to be able to have some fun to stay sane in this surreal main board Jet board mash up.

 

[Ducky10]

The whole Laine is great defensively meme is getting out of control. I mean lol, he's been a bit better positionally, but that's the extent of it.

 

[ps241]

I guess so. Trade him for Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux and let them play together with Laine 60 mins / game.

Currently the guy that doesn't seem to get anything going is not Laine, but Scheifele, Mark. Last season Scheifele had quite similar slump almost the same time, so that is just temporary, hopefully. CSW (or ESW which is 99% the same anyway) is not working. Currently it's even worse than ELL, as ELL is still somewhat working defensively despite recent 2-3 goals against that should have been prevented.

Laine is maybe not a magic wand that will immediately get Scheifele into the game again, but I'm confident it would be better than what is now happening on ice. Laine would bring some responsible D for Scheifele, as Wheeler is in his current form definitely not providing and Connor never did. So many odd man rushes have been happening lately against the 1st line.

Yea Scheif is going through a mini slump and I think he needs a change too. A bit tough to got into blend job when our next 3 are Blues Blues Preds so we'll see how this goes.

 

[grieves]

The whole Laine is great defensively meme is getting out of control. I mean lol, he's been a bit better positionally, but that's the extent of it.

I think Laine WAS better defensively in the beginning of the season, but he is turning over the puck like no tomorrow at the moment (lost confidence?). It's such a weird way to do it too. He plays or receives the puck with such poise and confidence, almost like he is thinking "look at these plebs trying to take the puck" - then he just loses possession like taking candy from a baby. He needs to be faster with his decision-making, because at the moment you can pressure him into mistakes. And that breakout tactic is looking pretty infantile at the moment, which is on coaching.

What we want from Laine is the best things he can give us, which is his unbelievable goal scoring ability. He needs a real playmaker (sorry Little) so we can tap into the honey parts of Laine, as he is far from a complete player.

But the honey parts are there too, which is why it is so unbelievably stupid to waste Laine like this.

 

[Psych0dad]

The whole Laine is great defensively meme is getting out of control. I mean lol, he's been a bit better positionally, but that's the extent of it.

He is good defensively for a player his age, especially for a sniper like he is. He definitely has caused less goals than for example the captain. And that guy is a veteran and like 32 and considered (By some) to be a great 2 way forward.

Laine is no Bergeron but he is not that kind of player anyway. I'm sure his D game will develop very nicely and he will be a great player both ways eventually when physique allows it.

Do you expect your 19 year old sniper to be the leading fwd defensively? And if so, why exactly?

 

[Kaako Kappo]

The whole Laine is great defensively meme is getting out of control. I mean lol, he's been a bit better positionally, but that's the extent of it.

Have you ever said anything positive about Laine?

 

[grieves]

He is good defensively for a player his age, especially for a sniper like he is. He definitely has caused less goals than for example the captain. And that guy is a veteran and like 32 and considered (By some) to be a great 2 way forward.

Laine is no Bergeron but he is not that kind of player anyway. I'm sure his D game will develop very nicely and he will be a great player both ways eventually when physique allows it.

Do you expect your 19 year old sniper to be the leading fwd defensively? And if so, why exactly?

Laine has been very good defensively for his age if we use a sample size of 30 games. He has been bad if we use a sample size of 5 games.

--

I think what Laine lacks most is experience, as in routine. He is such a smart kid that he wants to play the most optimized way every time, but if he does not have the repetitions, he is going to get caught thinking about his move. There's just no time for that. The opponents already know the break-out plan, so they know what to do.

What all Jets fans should want is for the defensive-oriented players to focus on defense and shut-down, and the offensive guys to focus on offense. If the team happens to have the most efficient goal-scorer on the planet, we should probably pair him up with a playmaker. Let's play to our strengths, not let our strengths become our weaknesses.

 

[Maukkis]

He is good defensively for a player his age, especially for a sniper like he is. He definitely has caused less goals than for example the captain. And that guy is a veteran and like 32 and considered (By some) to be a great 2 way forward.

Laine is no Bergeron but he is not that kind of player anyway. I'm sure his D game will develop very nicely and he will be a great player both ways eventually when physique allows it.

Do you expect your 19 year old sniper to be the leading fwd defensively? And if so, why exactly?

Care to explain how Wheeler has anything to do with Laine's defensive ability?

 

[Romang67]

Have you ever said anything positive about Laine?

If I'm going to guess, I would say that one of our more active posters, an avid Jets fan, has had positive things to say about a Jets player.

Despite what some people seem to believe, Jets fans, except the rare extreme exception, DO NOT DISLIKE LAINE.

 

[Ducky10]

Have you ever said anything positive about Laine?

Yes, lots. I love the guy.

 

[grieves]

Does anyone find it weird that we have seen a lot of line changes, but never the ones that pair Chef + Laine, and Wheels + Little?

I'm not trying to critize the lines as is, but when does it become weird that we won't touch those combinations no matter what? And I truly mean no matter what.

I thought it was truly sad that Maurice switched up Ehlers and Connor - as if those two player profiles are so much different from each other (Ehlers being more skilled obv) - to try to create an impact.

I was happy about PLL, because Matijöö Perröö is an awesome player, and has nice playmaking skills.

 

[Ducky10]

He is good defensively for a player his age, especially for a sniper like he is. He definitely has caused less goals than for example the captain. And that guy is a veteran and like 32 and considered (By some) to be a great 2 way forward.

Laine is no Bergeron but he is not that kind of player anyway. I'm sure his D game will develop very nicely and he will be a great player both ways eventually when physique allows it.

Do you expect your 19 year old sniper to be the leading fwd defensively? And if so, why exactly?

Nice strawman.

He is better positionally than last season. , I don't expect much from him, especially at this stage and he won't ever be a defensive style player, for good reason. Just pointing out he's anything but the good defensive player that some are now passing him off to be. It's kind of silly.

Caused less goals? I've seen what you believe causes goals, forgive me if I put no merit in that.

 

[grieves]

30 games says Laine is good defensively. 5 games don't. It's up to all of us to pick one.

But to think Laine is already as good as he is defensively, and we know that cannon and brain of his. Then we know how that works with Chef (with Wheels too if they would be able to play on the same line).

Haaaaallleluuuujaaa. Whatever happens this season, there are going to be good times ahead, and that just warms our cold, dead hearts here at HFJets (this is for you, lurker. You know your team is going to be in trouble soon)

 

[Halberdier]

Yes, lots. I love the guy.

And that definitely shows. Did you check the breakout system already?

 

[Ducky10]

(My OP was about Laine being the go to guy for making the breakouts in ELL line)

Last time when someone circulated that myt that it is a myth that Laine is that go to guy for breakouts in ELL, I did check the first period of the next game, and find out that there were 10 breakout attempts for ELL, 8 of them for Laine on the right side, 1 for Little (can't remember the side, sorry) and 1 for some D from the center. 0 for Ehlers.

As this baseless myth about that it would be a myth that Laine is the go to guys for the breakouts in ELL emerged again in yesterday, I checked the 1st period against Chigago, and here is what I did found:

When puck got deep to the Jets zone when ELL was on ice, there were 5 breakout attempts, all them successful. Out of those Laine made 4, Ehlers 1. Little and the D-men 0. There were also 3 occasions where the puck never got into the zone but only few feet deep. Out of those puck was carried or chipped to the neutral zone once by Chiarot, Ehlers and Morrissey, once for each guy.

After that PoMo finally found out that both CSW and ELL are broken as they have been for some time, and they were replaced by not the most obvious and optimal line combinations, but still OK combinations of ESW + PLL. Out of PLL breakout attempts Laine did both of them, failing the first but being successful with that other.

So when Laine was on ice, and the puck was played deep on their end, Laine made 6 breakout attempts out of 7 possible, failing one of them. Ehlers was the only guy other than Laine to to make even one breakout when Laine was on ice. Though one of breakout by Laine was made from the left side when he played LW for a moment.

Also when ESW was on the ice, also when they got the opening(?) GA from odd man rush before line swap was even done (S and w just playing single long shift there), Ehlers made the breakout.

I think I catched every shift by Laine in the first period, but I'm pleased if someone finds an error there. If not, Laine was again the go to guy for the breakouts, QED. Therefore the myth against this knowledge is yet again busted.

So just for fun, and a lack of anything better to do on a slow Friday work day, I took a look at Laine's shifts for the first 2 periods last night to look at him being the so called "go to guy" on the breakout.

First shift in his own end was a dump to the left side by Chicago, Poolman retrieves, wheels around the net to the right side to outskate the forechecker, passes to Laine on the right wall. Good read by Poolman, had the puck been dumped on the right side, Poolman would have made the same move to the opposite side to Ehlers. Basic hockey play, not a specific play for Laine.

2nd shift, Chicago brings the puck around the Jet net to the right side, Poolman in coverage knocks the puck off he Hawks player stick up the wall to Laine because it was his side of the ice, not a designed breakout just where the turnover occurred.

3rd shift, Laine comes back across in back check to the LW, Little retrieves puck and makes breakout pass to Laine. Again a basic hockey play as that was the direction of flow and he was the oulet.

4th shift,puck slapped around the wall from the left side clear over to Laine's wing, not a designed breakout, puck merely came to him on his side.

5th shift, breakout came off of transition from a rebound, Laine was top man and first out of the zone, Little head mans him the puck across the blue line.

6th shift, face off in Jets zone on right side, FO won, D reverses to left, breakout to Ehlers up the LW. Had the FO been on the left side, the Jets would have done the same thing up the RW.

I can go on and on but nothing I saw in the Jets breakout plan made Laine the go to guy by design, other than when the direction of play dictated they should. . As I've stated before, Laine has improved his positional play defensively, he is at the very least usually in the right spots for when the puck comes his way. The team is not making a predetermined effort to get him the puck to start the breakout when play does not dictate that is the direction to go however. When he is the outlet, it's his job to transition the puck out of the zone, either by pass, chip or skating. When the puck goes the other way, it's his job to be the secondary outlet for the puck to come to, usually meaning he's first out of the zone, which I saw him be at least 4-5 times last night.


None of this is a criticism of Laine, before anyone jumps down my throat. I'm just calling out what I believe to be a major misinterpretation of what Laine's role is in the Jets breakout. It's no different than any winger , a greater number of breakouts that go his way are really just a by product of the natural flow of play. That's how hockey works mostly, you can't just decide to force the puck up one side by design against the flow of play, well, unless you're Ben Chiarot that is.

 

[Ducky10]

And that definitely shows. Did you check the breakout system already?

Yep, I believe you are very mistaken or you just don't understand what you're looking at.

 

[Duke749]

I have a question. If and when Laine and Scheif get back together and Laine doesn't produce to some fans expectations should we trade Scheifele so we can find an even better center to unleash Pate's repressed potential. Just trying to get a jump on the solution when Mark lets down the Laine Ultra's?

DAM!

 

[Halberdier]

@Ducky10

So all in all you 1. could not debunk my "facts" (as you called them), because they were facts and 2. tried to move goal posts but failed and 3. did not apologize in any way.

After all that hand waving it still stands that Laine magically happened to be the guy for trying to make that breakout 6 times out of 7 when he was on ice. And succeeded in that 5 times. Awfully often he is just magically there where the breakout happens to happen. I still want to make sure that these where what I did catch live (I was keeping attention to that though) so there might be 1 or 2 breakout that I did miss.

As I stated earlier, there were 3 additional times when the puck never got deep into the Jets zone, but just couple of feet deep before that got back to the neutral zone. On these occasions Laine was not always the last forward standing on d-zone, but they are totally different situations anyway. And on that one normal breakout made by Ehlers Laine was already on the neutral zone when Ehlers passed the puck for him. Not something that is unseen by ELL line, but more like an exception to the rule than a rule itself.

I never said that Laine would be 10 times out of 10 that guy that makes the breakout, though 6 times out of 7 and 14 times out of 17 is awfully close to that, to be honest. I would be more pleased if that was more like 5 times out of 17 and not 14/17, but that would require a different breakout plan (for all lineups / whole team) by Maurice, as this current plan kind of sucks.

Also keep in mind that I never claimed that Maurice is the sole mastermind of this Laine breakout scheme. It might be just a thing Laine loves to do. And while he has failed already some times so ridiculously with his breakout passes, he still happens to be one of the better ones in the team for doing long passes and that's why I think is more often than not intentional that the puck is played for Laine for that breakout.

I would love if this team had better alternate breakout plans with eg. quick short passes + skating. They should have enough skill and speed for that.