Injury Report: 16-17 "Robidas Island": All Inhabitants have left the Island

[FreeBird]

Doesn't the insurance still pay the majority of the salary when the player is on ir? If so you know an insurance company is not doling out any cash unless its been proven to be authentic.

Clarkson is insured so if he doesn't play again Columbus saves a bunch of money, on the other hand Horton is uninsured the Leafs pay his contract in full.

 

[Gallagbi]

Lupul is getting the money anyway.so. no. not really. If he truly felt he could play he would have sought out a second opinion. His option is "not playing and getting paid." and being on IR, or trying out and not playing and being a healthy (or unhealthy scratch). Where is the "best interest?" it's sort of that whole think like people honestly think Lou does these things, and the league doesn't look into it - or the NHLPA.

Oh no? Documented healing times are set in stone?
Kane breaks bone, is supposed to be out for a long period of time, comes back sooner than expected.

Carey Price has a knee injury that was only supposed to be two week recovery period and he missed the entire season.

Erik Karlsson partially severs Achilles heel and suffers from lingering pain for a year afterwards even though he came back roughly when he was supposed to. David Bolland suffers same injury but comes back relatively quickly, but still has same lingering issues. I'm sorry. "documented" or not - people heal at different times.

from what we know. Lupul had his hernia surgery rehabbed, went to train and still felt some pain. came to Toronto worked with Leafs staff and still isn't healing the way everyone likes it too, so he'll continue to do so. What time line do you need? the Carey Price version when it was always "oh in a couple of weeks, he's good to go, oops still can't go?"

It's not ignoring anything if there was something legitimately shady, then fine. but there is a whole lot of other facts people are ignoring, the big one that the league does check these things out.

If he claimed to be healthy, there's buyout potential either this past summer or the one coming up. So there's lost earnings there. He could also ride the busses to Rochester and back to get that full pay cheque instead of staying home and collecting.

You seem desperate to want to close your eyes and cover your ears about the concerns, so why bother continuing this discussion? Don't say you don't understand the shadiness of the situation because you clearly do. You just don't (or don't want to) believe it.

 

[Daisy Jane]

You seem desperate to want to close your eyes and cover your ears about the concerns, so why bother continuing this discussion? Don't say you don't understand the shadiness of the situation because you clearly do. You just don't (or don't want to) believe it.

okay there.

 

[Slot]

If he claimed to be healthy, there's buyout potential either this past summer or the one coming up. So there's lost earnings there. He could also ride the busses to Rochester and back to get that full pay cheque instead of staying home and collecting.

You seem desperate to want to close your eyes and cover your ears about the concerns, so why bother continuing this discussion? Don't say you don't understand the shadiness of the situation because you clearly do. You just don't (or don't want to) believe it.

This isn't nearly as shady as Pronger still being on LTIR and working for the league in the DoPS. Lupul is either hurt or bit but regardless he's not playing to start the year. The only interesting part of this saga is what Nazem said and even then that could be a quote taken completely out of context.

 

[Xscout*]

this isn't nearly as shady as pronger still being on ltir and working for the league in the dops. Lupul is either hurt or bit but regardless he's not playing to start the year. the only interesting part of this saga is what nazem said and even then that could be a quote taken completely out of context.

¿? .

 

[Daisy Jane]

¿? .

that Lupul was pumped and ready to go for camp.

 

[Gallagbi]

¿? .

"I’ve talked to him a few times this summer,†said Nazem Kadri, one of Lupul’s long-time friends on the team. “I think he’s ready to go, and I think he’s pretty excited about the season. What happens is ultimately their decision. We just play hockey."

 

[Menzinger]

This isn't nearly as shady as Pronger still being on LTIR and working for the league in the DoPS. Lupul is either hurt or bit but regardless he's not playing to start the year. The only interesting part of this saga is what Nazem said and even then that could be a quote taken completely out of context.

I wouldn't call this shady either - but there are enough eyebrow raising factors that I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if some sort of arrangement between Lou/Lupul had been worked out

 

[Canada4Gold]

Still waiting for anyone to tell me what the benefit for the Leafs is here. If they're trying to exploit a loophole ther has to be some benefit to do this.

Roster spot? Nope, they could have waived him to the Marlies to clear the roster spot

LTIR? Unlikely, they can LTIR Horton for 5.3 in space, Robidas if necessary, that would be about as legitimate as LTIRing Lupul if your conspiracy is correct. The odds that we need more than 8.3 million in LTIR is basically zero, and LTIR will hurt us with the real need for space when ELC bonuses get hit. An issue waiving him to the Marlies would gain us 925k on.

Actual Money? Nope, you can be sure an insurance company will make sure this is legit before they start paying it out. Buying him out would be a better option from the money side. And it's not the like the Leafs are concerned with actual money anyway, they'd pay out 5.25 just to get the 925k cap space they'd get from sending him to the minors if they could

What else is there? I don't see any benefit, I see a hindrance, if there is a benefit maybe someone wouldn't mind posting it rather than posting outlandish conspiracy theories. I don't think Lou is in the business of finding loopholes just for the sake of exploiting them for fun when it doesn't help his team at all.

 

[Gallagbi]

You answer the question in your first 2 responses.

The Leafs don't want him, so they have 3 options.
-demote to Marlies, take the $4+ mill hit and pay his replacement
- buyout (now passed) and pay for 4 years
- LTIR and open up space. Keeps them against/near the ceiling for bonuses (which I expect they were anyways), but provides in-season flexibility.

What's the best option for the Leafs? LTIR.

While the situation is different, the question is essentially the same as Clarkson v. Horton. You're paying money and term no matter what. Do you want the anchor to be a healthy player or on LTIR? They chose LTIR in the past and that seems to be a very popular move.

 

[Menzinger]

You answer the question in your first 2 responses.

The Leafs don't want him, so they have 3 options.
-demote to Marlies, take the $4+ mill hit and pay his replacement
- buyout (now passed) and pay for 4 years
- LTIR and open up space. Keeps them against/near the ceiling for bonuses (which I expect they were anyways), but provides in-season flexibility.

What's the best option for the Leafs? LTIR.

While the situation is different, the question is essentially the same as Clarkson v. Horton. You're paying money and term no matter what. Do you want the anchor to be a healthy player or on LTIR? They chose LTIR in the past and that seems to be a very popular move.

Having Lupul's caphit off this season defined gives them fexibity make trades where the Leafs take in extra salary this season

 

[Canada4Gold]

So your "benefit" only applies if the Leafs need more than 8.3 million in space? And you're willing to have Lupul's 5.25 million + ~925k replacement on the cap thereby ensuring any bonuses hit move to next year to ensure you have this very very unlikely benefit? If only benefit meant hindrance that'd be about right.

You do know how LTIR works correct? You have to be near your max to have any benefit, so we can't just automatically LTIR Horton, Robidas, and Lupul and voila 13.5 million in space? Whoever you LTIR stays on the cap, your max just goes up to what you're at now + the AAV of the LTIR'd player. And since you're over you now move all ELC bonuses to next year?

Yeah I'd prefer if he were healthy, demote him, stay under the cap since we don't need LTIR right now(and won't need more than 8.3 in LTIR all season) and have some room for ELC bonuses tacked on at the end of the year.

 

[Daisy Jane]

So your "benefit" only applies if the Leafs need more than 8.3 million in space? And you're willing to have Lupul's 5.25 million + ~925k replacement on the cap thereby ensuring any bonuses hit move to next year to ensure you have this very very unlikely benefit? If only benefit meant hindrance that'd be about right.

You do know how LTIR works correct? You have to be near your max to have any benefit, so we can't just automatically LTIR Horton, Robidas, and Lupul and voila 13.5 million in space? Whoever you LTIR stays on the cap, your max just goes up to what you're at now + the AAV of the LTIR'd player. And since you're over you now move all ELC bonuses to next year?

Yeah I'd prefer if he were healthy, demote him, stay under the cap since we don't need LTIR right now(and won't need more than 8.3 in LTIR all season) and have some room for ELC bonuses tacked on at the end of the year.

and that's why for me, I'm curious why people are thinking that the Leafs get benefit in the sense that it would be shady. like it doesn't benefit them at all (from the way you explain it). and if if the leafs wanted to buy him out wouldn't they have done that last season if they truly wanted nothing to do with him? (well i guess unless they wanted to give him a chance first, to be fair).

 

[Gallagbi]

So your "benefit" only applies if the Leafs need more than 8.3 million in space? And you're willing to have Lupul's 5.25 million + ~925k replacement on the cap thereby ensuring any bonuses hit move to next year to ensure you have this very very unlikely benefit? If only benefit meant hindrance that'd be about right.

You do know how LTIR works correct? You have to be near your max to have any benefit, so we can't just automatically LTIR Horton, Robidas, and Lupul and voila 13.5 million in space? Whoever you LTIR stays on the cap, your max just goes up to what you're at now + the AAV of the LTIR'd player. And since you're over you now move all ELC bonuses to next year?

Yeah I'd prefer if he were healthy, demote him, stay under the cap since we don't need LTIR right now(and won't need more than 8.3 in LTIR all season) and have some room for ELC bonuses tacked on at the end of the year.

Last I saw the Leafs were at/near the max, so they're in bonus overage territory with him demoted or on the roster. So that doesn't matter much, if at all.

The question is demote and replace or LTIR. Like I said earlier, seems like LTIR is the favourable choice now just like it was in the past.

Of course if he's actually unfit to play, im sure we'll get an update on his timelines. Have you heard anything on that?

I'd also be interested to see where the Leafs sit for potential bonuses and whether a call-UP like Brown would cost more than Lupul on LTIR.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Last I saw the Leafs were at/near the max, so they're in bonus overage territory with him demoted or on the roster. So that doesn't matter much, if at all.

The question is demote and replace or LTIR. Like I said earlier, seems like LTIR is the favourable choice now just like it was in the past.

Of course if he's actually unfit to play, im sure we'll get an update on his timelines. Have you heard anything on that?

The Leafs are 827k over accoring to CapFriendly, but if the Cowen buyout goes through(which IMO it should, I don't think Cowen has a leg to stand on, no pun intended) we're 2.923 under the cap. That's with Horton, Robidas and Lupul all on the cap. 21 man roster. Lupul goes down, Brown, Zaitsev, and Soshnikov come up and we're at just under 600k in room for a 23 man roster. If someone like Greening, Michalek, Laich, or Holland doesn't make the roster and is replaced by a sub 925k replacement it's more.

Hell, if we weren't into the business of apparently telling healthy guys to go home to get some mythical advantage we could have send Robidas down and get 925k more. But instead we have Robidas on the cap too. You know, in case we need use more LTIR than the 5.3 million from Horton and all.

It's fine if you disagree, and think that we're better off this way. I disagree, and even if we were better off it's a pretty cloudy "benefit" and not really worth the trouble of faking injuries.

I think the far more likely scenario is he's actually not feeling great. Call me when we're 5 million over the cap and suddenly a over the hill player with a 5 million cap hit and 0 injury history in his life is suddenly hurt out of nowhere and needs to go on LTIR. That would look pretty shady. A player with an injury riddled career not recovering properly from surgery he had when the benefit is minuscule at best and IMO a hindrance is far more likely to be a legit story than a manufactured injury.

Rpbidas was not on LTIR last year at all. I can almost guarantee you Lupul won't see a day of LTIR this season either. The odds that we bring in enough cap that we need more than Horton's relief just isn't likely.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I'd also be interested to see where the Leafs sit for potential bonuses and whether a call-UP like Brown would cost more than Lupul on LTIR.

you edited this in afterwards. Lupul demoted and Brown up has a cap hit of 5.011. Lupul on LTIR and Brown called up has a cap hit of 5.936. This is because a player doesn't disappear from your cap when you use LTIR. Of course we'd have an additional 4.5 million in LTIR space we could use. But this is literally past the 9 million point in LTIR needed since we can LTIR Horton and Robidas(again just as "legit" as Lupul) first.

So you're adding 925k to the cap, space we could use towards ELC bonuses if we remained under, in hopes that we might need more than 9 million in LTIR space for mid-season transactions.

Hell, if we're in the business of making up injuries why not just send Lupul down, and then when we need this additional LTIR space(we won't), call him up have him play a game and then "get hurt", that way while he's down in the minors we're banking daily cap space we could use for ELC bonuses at the end of the year and if we need the LTIR space we have it. Wouldn't look anymore suspicious because all of you have basically assumed we're faking these injuries anyway

 

[Gallagbi]

Robidas is a 35+ contract, no relief for anything aside from LTIR.

With the rookies you list and potentially Marner, you have to be getting close to that Bonus Cushion limit.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Robidas is a 35+ contract, no relief for anything aside from LTIR.

With the rookies you list and potentially Marner, you have to be getting close to that Bonus Cushion limit.

apologizes for Robidas, I knew he was a 35+ which has restrictions which I knew meant a buyout saves nothing, as well as retirement. I thought sending them down saves the 925k. It actually saves 100k per CapFriendly(after the first year of the contract), but that's virtually nothing anyway.

So I can see the benefit in Robidas' case, though the odds of needing more than Horton's 5.3 is slim(we didn't use it last year), just as well to have it there. But I still don't see any benefit with Lupul

 

[kb]

You answer the question in your first 2 responses.

The Leafs don't want him, so they have 3 options.
-demote to Marlies, take the $4+ mill hit and pay his replacement
- buyout (now passed) and pay for 4 years
- LTIR and open up space. Keeps them against/near the ceiling for bonuses (which I expect they were anyways), but provides in-season flexibility.

What's the best option for the Leafs? LTIR.

While the situation is different, the question is essentially the same as Clarkson v. Horton. You're paying money and term no matter what. Do you want the anchor to be a healthy player or on LTIR? They chose LTIR in the past and that seems to be a very popular move.

Lupul will never see LTIR. They have Horton for that if needed. But right now they are now $2.923 million under with 24 (out of 23) roster spots filled, so that will grow to at least $3.5 to #3.8 million under (Cowen situation notwithstanding)

Please enlighten us on how the Lupul situation is shady. The Leafs actually get no benefit whatsoever in any way. His full cap hit stays, he can't be bought out (injured), and will not go on LTIR, and actually he is not desired for that either as the moment a team uses LTIR, all performance bonuses earned will carry forward to next year.

What they have done is perfectly legal and actually helps out Lupul the person. He's not bought out and he's not forced to ride buses all year to collect his pay.

 

[stymie]

The simple fact is Lupul wants his money & the Leafs will pay it.
No bus trips, no more injuries, & nobodies business if he lands on Robidas Island.
Win/Win for everybody.

 

[Gallagbi]

Lupul will never see LTIR. They have Horton for that if needed. But right now they are now $2.923 million under with 24 (out of 23) roster spots filled, so that will grow to at least $3.5 to #3.8 million under (Cowen situation notwithstanding)

Please enlighten us on how the Lupul situation is shady. The Leafs actually get no benefit whatsoever in any way. His full cap hit stays, he can't be bought out (injured), and will not go on LTIR, and actually he is not desired for that either as the moment a team uses LTIR, all performance bonuses earned will carry forward to next year.

What they have done is perfectly legal and actually helps out Lupul the person. He's not bought out and he's not forced to ride buses all year to collect his pay.

Read back it's all there.

Your last 2 points are the same I made earlier. Sure it may be beneficial for Lupul compared to the other options, but that doesn't mean there situation isn't questionable.

 

[BooRadley]

Maybe Lou gave Lupul the option of staying home "injured" or riding the bus with the Marlies. It could be one of those things Lou offered to avoid him being embarrassed as a vet and going out with some dignity. I always got the impression Lou was a people's GM behind the scenes and would pull strings to keep people happy within reason.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Maybe Lou gave Lupul the option of staying home "injured" or riding the bus with the Marlies. It could be one of those things Lou offered to avoid him being embarrassed as a vet and going out with some dignity. I always got the impression Lou was a people's GM behind the scenes and would pull strings to keep people happy within reason.

that's what i've always gathered too. Lou always tries to take care of his players within reason.

 

[kb]

Read back it's all there.

Your last 2 points are the same I made earlier. Sure it may be beneficial for Lupul compared to the other options, but that doesn't mean there situation isn't questionable.

Sure, most likely they don't want him to play, and his surgery is the excuse they are using. Even so, that is in no way questionable. The doctors would have to sign off on that, and then Lupul has to agree to it or he can challenge the medical opinion the doctors game him. He chose not to challenge it. And doing it the way the Leafs are doing it gives the Leafs zero benefits at all.

Nothing shady or questionable about it. If they tucked him away and got some benefit, then you might have a point. But they do not benefit, so there is no issue at play here. It also saves Lupul the embarrassment of being sent down to ride the buses all year.

 

[sxvnert]

Maybe Lou gave Lupul the option of staying home "injured" or riding the bus with the Marlies. It could be one of those things Lou offered to avoid him being embarrassed as a vet and going out with some dignity. I always got the impression Lou was a people's GM behind the scenes and would pull strings to keep people happy within reason.

Exactly.