Post-Game Talk: 08-Feb-2014 OTT @ BOS

[Benjamin]

And you know for sure that Cowen doesn't?

I made no claim that he does or doesn't.

The point is that we don't know because none of us can see into the future. I think comparing him to Chara is unfair, because a lot of exceptional top 4 D already in the league don't measure up to that standard. I would be thrilled if in 3-5 years he becomes a solid 3/4 guy who plays a simple no-nonsense, physical game

Yup. Its reDQless. Cowen is never going to be close to Chara. Cowen could easily be nothing more than Bryan Allen. We hope he becomes an Orpik or Regehr.

 

[booger]

I made no claim that he does or doesn't.


Yup. Its reDQless. Cowen is never going to be close to Chara. Cowen could easily be nothing more than Bryan Allen. We hope he becomes an Orpik or Regehr.

No one knew at the time that Chara would turn into the player he is today. Just like none of us knows Cowen won't become the league's dominant defenseman in the years to come. But I'm willing to give him more than 3 years.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

How come everyone gave Karlsson such a long leash when he was absolutely atrocious defensively in his first couple of seasons? Was it because he was so flashy?

If Karlsson continues to be as bad defensively his legacy will be cemented exactly the way it has been for Jason Spezza. Very flashy offensively but nothing more than that and that will leave a lot to be desired from fans.

Yes, Karlsson was bad defensively as a rookie, and in his sophomore year, and the first half of this season. But, he has also been making a lot of good defensive plays. His defensive game has been very good so far this calender year (except for that brutal "effort" against Boston in Saturday).

The key is, we're seeing a lot of improvement, and most of the time, he's actually making an effort to make up for his mistakes and weakness in the defensive zone. That's the key - show some serious effort and the majority of people will overlook a lot of faults.

 

[YNWA14]

I can't be the only one who thinks that Karlsson is what he is at this point? I mean, might we see minor improvements? Sure, but my bet is that he's always average to below average defensively.

I'm ok with that, because his offensive abilities are game-breaking. He's a treat to watch on the ice, and he has a role on the team.

There are two sides to every coin. You have guys like Kane (Spezza) and Keith (Karlsson) on cup winning teams like Chicago, but the issue isn't having these skilled, poor defensive guys (although Keith is much better defensively now, although it helps to be on a great team) the issue is surrounding these guys with other players that can make up for their deficiencies. You still have to score to win games, and scoring is the hardest part. Karlsson is amazing in that he probably generates more offensive chances than any other player in the league -- but he does need help in his own zone. Methot - Karlsson was such an awesome pairing I don't know why this Cowen experiment is continuing. Right now Cowen clearly is not the guy that is going to be able to cover for Karlsson when he makes more defensive mistakes than Karlsson does himself.

Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Ceci

Have Cowen playing against easier competition with another defensive minded player that also has some offensive prowess and it will benefit everyone involved.

 

[WORLDSTARHIPHOP]

It's funny that throughout Turris' time in Phoenix he was criticized for his effort, maturity, and consistency.

Now on our team he gives the most consistent effort night in and night out, while his interviews have been all class.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

It's funny that throughout Turris' time in Phoenix he was criticized for his effort, maturity, and consistency.

Now on our team he gives the most consistent effort night in and night out, while his interviews have been all class.

Well, there was a bit of talk about both his physical and mental maturity in his draft year (iirc, he was the one who brought a kiddie lunchbox to school with him on a daily basis, which the TSN guys highlighted at the draft interview).

He wasn't used well in Phoenix, and he didn't handle himself the absolute best way about it, either. Frankly, I don't blame Turris - the kid left school early (and left that plum scholarship along with it) to go to the Coyotes, only to get bounced around a lot on and get a real opportunity with the team. Phoenix was stupid to get him out of school that soon, as his body was nowhere near ready.

But yes, he has been all class and hardworking here. Turris is a smart kid, and I think he realizes how lucky he is to get a second chance (a real chance) after what happened in Phoenix, and he isn't going to waste it.

 

[DylanSensFan]

Karlsson can somewhat carry Cowen, Cowen cannot carry Ceci...

 

[YNWA14]

Spezza has been an elite player his entire career. Karlsson was never the best player in the game, and he had a 17 game sample size where he played above average defence. Everything we've seen up to that point, and since that small sample size, suggests that Karlsson is average to below average defensively. But yeah, it's more likely that I'm biased in some way here than the guy that thinks Karlsson was ever the best player in the game.

My favourite posts are when people bring up something that isn't relevant at all to a discussion because they don't actually have anything pertinent to say as though it takes credibility away from what is being said.

 

[coladin]

I can't be the only one who thinks that Karlsson is what he is at this point? I mean, might we see minor improvements? Sure, but my bet is that he's always average to below average defensively.

I'm ok with that, because his offensive abilities are game-breaking. He's a treat to watch on the ice, and he has a role on the team.

There are two sides to every coin. You have guys like Kane (Spezza) and Keith (Karlsson) on cup winning teams like Chicago, but the issue isn't having these skilled, poor defensive guys (although Keith is much better defensively now, although it helps to be on a great team) the issue is surrounding these guys with other players that can make up for their deficiencies. You still have to score to win games, and scoring is the hardest part. Karlsson is amazing in that he probably generates more offensive chances than any other player in the league -- but he does need help in his own zone. Methot - Karlsson was such an awesome pairing I don't know why this Cowen experiment is continuing. Right now Cowen clearly is not the guy that is going to be able to cover for Karlsson when he makes more defensive mistakes than Karlsson does himself.

Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Ceci

Have Cowen playing against easier competition with another defensive minded player that also has some offensive prowess and it will benefit everyone involved.

It is easy to pick on Karlsson because it seems that whenever he is on the ice, the game rotates around him, in a good and bad way. He controls the game when he is on the ice and, seeming that he plays so many minutes, he makes mistakes. If he played 20 mins a game, you would see less. The fact that he plays 27 mins, he is on the ice almost half a game. So he will get exposed.

The problems that plague Karlsson's game can be taught. H eis a smart hockey player and gets himself in trouble when he tries to do too much. No one was going Saturday, and he is part of the team with that regard.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Yes, Karlsson was bad defensively as a rookie, and in his sophomore year, and the first half of this season. But, he has also been making a lot of good defensive plays. His defensive game has been very good so far this calender year (except for that brutal "effort" against Boston in Saturday).

The key is, we're seeing a lot of improvement, and most of the time, he's actually making an effort to make up for his mistakes and weakness in the defensive zone. That's the key - show some serious effort and the majority of people will overlook a lot of faults.

Are we not seeing improvement in Cowen? He was terrible at the start of the season but as the season progresses he is showing signs of what we look for in him as a top defender.

 

[YNWA14]

I'm not blaming Karlsson for Saturday. I'm not blaming him even for any singular play or stretch of games. I'm talking about his career as a whole (so far).

What is it that Potvin has said before (maybe it was someone else)? It takes about 300 games for a defenceman to figure out what they are in the NHL? Karlsson is at 292, not including playoff games. I think he's pretty close to what he is. Obviously there are exceptions and Karlsson is extremely talented so there's nothing that says he can't change his ways, but most evidence points to him being the best offensive defenceman in the league, and average to below average defensively.

 

[BankStreetParade]

The team is 9-4-4 since the new year. A pt% of 0.647. Yet one bad loss and suddenly this team is ****ing chopped liver.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Are we not seeing improvement in Cowen? He was terrible at the start of the season but as the season progresses he is showing signs of what we look for in him as a top defender.

Oh, definitely we're also seeing some good things from Cowen, too. He hasn't been very consistent, but there's definitely some good things happening. Boston was a horrible game for most of the team.

Problem with Cowen, and Karlsson, and pretty much all of our D, is having too many kids at once. We don't have enough defensively-solid vets to insulate and mentor Ceci, Weir, Cowen, and yes Karlsson.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Oh, definitely we're also seeing some good things from Cowen, too. He hasn't been very consistent, but there's definitely some good things happening. Boston was a horrible game for most of the team.

Problem with Cowen, and Karlsson, and pretty much all of our D, is having too many kids at once. We don't have enough defensively-solid vets to insulate and mentor Ceci, Weir, Cowen, and yes Karlsson.

I think this year we really do miss Gonchar's steadying veteran presence. No improvements to our D were made over the offseason - only subtractions. (Yes even with EK and Cowen being out for a while last year).

edit - ah I see Gonchar has already been brought up in the Cowen thread.

 

[Punchbowl]

xxxx

 

[YNWA14]

What was brought up that is irrelevant? The bit about Spezza?

You have consistently argued that Spezza's defence has improved since his early days (let's say under 25) yet are now of the opinion that Karlsson "Is what he is" and will not improve defensively. The two are directly related; either young players can improve defensively or they cannot.

I've mostly argued that Spezza is not as bad defensively as people make him out to be, and he played a decent two-way game in 2011-12. However, where have I "consistently argued" that his defence has improved since his early days? Most of my arguments are predicated on the idea that offensive players should be allowed to be offensive players. Most of his issues have never been about defence they were about responsibility with the puck (which he has improved on). He'll never be great defensively.

But you know exactly what was irrelevant (talking about Spezza recovering from injury to be an elite offensive player still as though that's somehow relevant to Karlsson's defensive abilities).

1. Young players can not improve defensively (thus, Spezza is just as bad defensively today as he was at 23)

I've never said that young players can't improve defensively.

2. Young players can improve defensively (thus, Karlsson is not a finished product)

Your move.

Young players can improve defensively.

 

[Punchbowl]

xxxx

 

[YNWA14]

Edit: sorry for the tone, but it was unfair to make a dig at ReginKarlssonLehner because he asked you to consider reality you don't like.

What? In what way was his comment relevant to the discussion? He was taking a shot at Spezza because he didn't like what I said about Karlsson. It's literally the opposite of what you are saying.

It's way to early in Karlsson's career to project what he'll be in another five years.

Not really. We look at players and project what they will be in the future all the time. Nothing is set in stone and I believe I said in my post about Karlsson that I'm not saying he can't improve -- just that most of the information that we have suggests he will always be average to below average defensively and amazing offensively.

Again, there's nothing wrong with that. It still makes him one of the best, if not the best, defencemen in the league.

Do you think Spezza is just as bad defensively back then as he is today?

No, but I don't think he's much better defensively than he was 300 games into his career.

You cleared that up in your last line, so thank you. Again, I apologize for the tone. Re-reading it that post, I realized it was very aggressive.

No worries man, it happens.

I actually did not see what was irrelevant as I interpreted RKL's statement as questioning your stance on Spezza's defensive resurgence rather than offensive resurgence. It's still somewhat suspect to believe that 13 game (or whatever it was) stretch of brilliant defence from Karlsson and his incredible 30gp tenure in Finland were a fluke, but it's true it was a small sample size.

I can pretty much guarantee you that the intention of his post had nothing to do with defensive resurgence.

I think using the Potvin statement here is somewhat disingenuous. Potvin clearly is applying that blanket statement to the case of the average defenceman. Karlsson's circumstances are far from average given his age (so young) and his injury, which derailed his defensive development.

I don't think that he applies it only to average defencemen (or that its use is disingenuous at all), though I do agree with you that Karlsson is far from average. However, players tend to develop natural tendencies in their games which we see very often from players. I think, and especially with the freedom that Karlsson is given and the way that he is treated, Karlsson has developed those tendencies and you can see them in the way that he plays -- he doesn't battle well along the boards, he's weak in front of the net, he cheats out of the zone, he sometimes just gives no effort in the defensive zone and allows the other team to grab the puck first and he can have trouble at times pivoting. These are things that he's always had trouble with and some can be attributed to his size and others to mental mistakes, but ultimately they are not things that we've seen improve really over his tenure with the Sens. That's not to say they can't improve, but there are definitely some aspects that I don't see him improving on there.

This past year has been a write-off for Karlsson due to the injury. It's what everyone has said; it takes a year to get back to normal from an Achilles injury. He was abysmal in September/October but has been playing much more consistent defence since January 1st.

I think he's been playing well. However, he still hasn't been great defensively. He has been average in some games to below average in others. The biggest thing he brings to a game is his offence and when he's really skating well and moving he keeps the puck in the other end and impacts the game in a way that allows his defensive deficiencies to be largely ignored (or he's playing solid in his own end, and on those nights he's the best defenceman in the world).

I'm of the opinion that we forget what Karlsson did between February 14th, 2013 and February 14th, 2014, and just evaluate from here on out. Forget the last 60gp and pretend he's at 232gp if you want to look at it from Potvin's angle, because those were spent just getting back to the level he was at when he went down in the 232nd game. I honestly have no idea whether he will ever reach the heights he did in early 2013, but I guess we'll find out.

I can respect this stance. I'm not saying anything is set in stone. I just think that we've seen more evidence that suggest Karlsson will be the cream of the crop offensively while always carrying questions defensively rather than him becoming very good defensively while also keeping his offence. I think if Karlsson is going to really tighten up his defensive game there will be a noticeable drop-off in his offensive output.

 

[Hammertyme]

The only time I'm scared is when Karlsson doesn't have the puck in our zone. At this point he is below average defensively and I don't know how anybody can disagree. He is quick but has a piss poor pivot to the right and his gap speed is terrible. He cannot push many people off the puck.