Proposal: Zuccarello To Calgary

[One Winged Angel]

If you cannot take it, don't dish it out.

Take what? Now you’re acting like I’m hurt? All I’ve done is expose you for being a fraud, I’m not mad or hurt, nice reverse psychology attempt, but your elementary school level tactics are remedial at best. Go back to the drawing board.

All I've proven is I'm not biased for a psrtipar player. I have no horse in this race, I'm not going to be heartbroken if Zucchini doesn't end up a Flame.

Could care less if you want him there or not. You’ve proven you’ve never watched him play.

All you've proved is when you're proven wrong you jump to "you've never seen him play".

I’m not the one that thinks Zuccarello is soft because he’s small. That’s on you. You put your foot in your mouth, not me. Because Evander Kane is bigger and is very athletic and throws checks and sometimes fights doesn’t mean he’s more gritty than Zuccarello. The guy is always hitting, always mixing it up with someone and for a team whose coach over the years wasn’t a fan of having fighters in the lineup (Tanner Glass aside), Zuccarello did a lot of fending for himself in that regard when it came to scrums. Further proving that don’t know the first thing about Zuccarello.

It’s a shame, you’d figure that being a flames fan and having seen Theo Fleury, you’d know not to act like size and grit are mutually exclusive, but you’ve managed to make a fool of yourself. Maybe you started watching hockey yesterday and never got to see Theo play? Funny, because as a Rangers fan, I did and I’ve seen Zuccarello’s entire career to this point. If it wasn’t for the team’s direction, I wouldn’t be desecrating you in this argument while you make a fool of yourself, as the Rangers would re-sign him.

However, times have changed in NY, but HFBoards once again proves that there are many people who are too proud to admit that they’ve never watched a certain player, so they’ll go out and post ridiculous nonsense and show the Internet that they don’t know player A from player B. Keep going with those word of mouth scouting reports, they’ll get you real far, kiddo.

 

[jessemadnote]

Dude seriously if you think Zuccarello is so much better than Kane, how would you feel if Gorton signed him to a 7x7?

 

[Tawnos]

Dude seriously if you think Zuccarello is so much better than Kane, how would you feel if Gorton signed him to a 7x7?

At this Cap and if Zuccarello was 26 years old, I'd be fine with it.

 

[Lunatik]

Take what? Now you’re acting like I’m hurt? All I’ve done is expose you for being a fraud, I’m not mad or hurt, nice reverse psychology attempt, but your elementary school level tactics are remedial at best. Go back to the drawing board.



Could care less if you want him there or not. You’ve proven you’ve never watched him play.



I’m not the one that thinks Zuccarello is soft because he’s small. That’s on you. You put your foot in your mouth, not me. Because Evander Kane is bigger and is very athletic and throws checks and sometimes fights doesn’t mean he’s more gritty than Zuccarello. The guy is always hitting, always mixing it up with someone and for a team whose coach over the years wasn’t a fan of having fighters in the lineup (Tanner Glass aside), Zuccarello did a lot of fending for himself in that regard when it came to scrums. Further proving that don’t know the first thing about Zuccarello.

It’s a shame, you’d figure that being a flames fan and having seen Theo Fleury, you’d know not to act like size and grit are mutually exclusive, but you’ve managed to make a fool of yourself. Maybe you started watching hockey yesterday and never got to see Theo play? Funny, because as a Rangers fan, I did and I’ve seen Zuccarello’s entire career to this point. If it wasn’t for the team’s direction, I wouldn’t be desecrating you in this argument while you make a fool of yourself, as the Rangers would re-sign him.

However, times have changed in NY, but HFBoards once again proves that there are many people who are too proud to admit that they’ve never watched a certain player, so they’ll go out and post ridiculous nonsense and show the Internet that they don’t know player A from player B. Keep going with those word of mouth scouting reports, they’ll get you real far, kiddo.

I stopped reading where you said I think Zucc is soft. I said no such thing, but please continue fabricating bulshit. I'm done wasting my time on a person that cannot debate without acting like a petulant teenager

 

[One Winged Angel]

Of course age is a factor. It was deal based around a conditional 1st, depending on whether or not Kane re-signed. Players in the NHL also statistically drop off significantly in their 30s. Kane is power forward, who are notoriously slow developers.

Both were rentals. They were traded for as rentals. Age doesn’t play a factor at that point. Age might play a factor in the re-signing status, but you don’t deal for a player as a rental and pay the price of a player that has term, right?

And Kane didn't put up Zucarello like points....except for the year that the Sharks actually trade for him, where he had already put up 20/20 in 61 games, despite being on a lottery pick level team.

Comparing past stats with Kane makes now sense. This is particularly true, as Kane suffered from a number of, now resolved, injuries that held him back. Kane his his "career level" in 2012/13, but the season was shorterned. He hit it again in 2013/14, but his year was shortened due to injury. Most importantly, he was on pace again for those number through 60 games in 2017/18, the year the trade was made. Treating Kane like a flash in the pan is totally misleading.

I’ve never treated Kane like a flash in the pan. What I’ve stated is that Zuccarello is a superior player and has shown that over the last 5 years. I don’t know where you’re getting that from.

As for the injuries, that’s still on Kane to stay healthy. That’s another advantage that Zuccarello has over Kane. He barely misses games. This year is the most he’s missed in a season and part of it was because of a foot infection.

The Kane deal was based around acquiring a long-term and young piece, which looks like it is paying off for the Sharks big time. Zucc is a pure rental and is 31.

Kane was a pure rental as well, he was to hit UFA after. There is no difference between two players who hit UFA. Zuccarello is not 38 years old and looking at retiring. He’s 31 going on 32 and could still get a 5 year deal. Just because Kane was younger doesn’t mean that he’s not a rental and San Jose paid accordingly. They paid a rental’s price. Look at the returns on players that are dealt with term and then the rentals. Kane’s falls in line with what rentals return.

 

[One Winged Angel]

I stopped reading where you said I think Zucc is soft. I said no such thing, but please continue fabricating bul****. I'm done wasting my time on a person that cannot debate without acting like a petulant teenager

Acting like a petulant teenager? Don’t throw stones in glass houses.

You laughed when I said Zuccarello is as gritty as Kane, which he is. So what are you trying to imply then? That Zuccarello is only sometimes gritty? That Kane is a human wrecking ball that hits everything he can ala Zac Rinaldo or Cody McLeod?

You backed yourself into a corner by making a hasty assumption and then accused me of fabricating and said I was acting like a petulant teenager because you can’t handle the fact that you’re wrong about a player, being arrogant while doing so and now you’re attempting to play the victim. Cut the crap.

Just man up and admit that you don’t watch him every night and everyone can go on their way. I’m a ranger fan and I do and have watched Zuccarello. I’m not gonna tell you that I watch Johnny Gaudreau or Sean Monahan every night, even though I do have NHL TV. It’s damn near impossible to follow another team as much as you follow your own.

 

[blankall]

Both were rentals. They were traded for as rentals. Age doesn’t play a factor at that point. Age might play a factor in the re-signing status, but you don’t deal for a player as a rental and pay the price of a player that has term, right?



I’ve never treated Kane like a flash in the pan. What I’ve stated is that Zuccarello is a superior player and has shown that over the last 5 years. I don’t know where you’re getting that from.

As for the injuries, that’s still on Kane to stay healthy. That’s another advantage that Zuccarello has over Kane. He barely misses games. This year is the most he’s missed in a season and part of it was because of a foot infection.



Kane was a pure rental as well, he was to hit UFA after. There is no difference between two players who hit UFA. Zuccarello is not 38 years old and looking at retiring. He’s 31 going on 32 and could still get a 5 year deal. Just because Kane was younger doesn’t mean that he’s not a rental and San Jose paid accordingly. They paid a rental’s price. Look at the returns on players that are dealt with term and then the rentals. Kane’s falls in line with what rentals return.

Once again, the rental price for Kane was a 2nd, 4th, and contract dump. The 1st was contingent on re-signing. It was a best of both worlds trade for the SJS. It allowed them to try Kane out before re-signing him or committing a 1st rounder.

Zuccarello is not the superior player. Both players put up very similar PPG. Kane puts up more goals, which is a more valuable stat. Kane is much bigger and plays a much more physical game. Kane was also 5 years younger at the time of his trade, increasing his value. Kane has much more in common with a player like Kreider or Hayes than Zuccarello. Kane's value was hampered by his off ice issues, hence the conditional 1st.

Kane and Zuccarello are just not good comparables. I'd put Zuccarello somewhere in between Kane and Grabner value, with Zucc having more leadership qualities than Grabner.

 

[WhoTagz]

I’d like Zucc, but would throw him on the 3rd line. I think a line of Neal, Bennett and Zucc would be an excellent line. With Janks, Hath and Ryan on the 4th. We have some crazy depth by adding Zuccarello at that point.

A 1st might be steep for me, and BT has been quoted that our 1st is only for a player with term. But I could see a prospect and a pick for Zucc if that could work? Something like Mangiapane and a 3rd? I believe our 2nd belongs to the Islanders if we miss the playoffs, so we might have a 2nd.

If a 1st is too steep sorry to tell you no deal

 

[Janks]

If a 1st is too steep sorry to tell you no deal

The only way I see the Flames giving up our 1st is if Zucc re-signs with the Flames, so it would be a conditional 2nd (1st if re-signs). If that doesn't fly for the Rangers, I totally get it.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Once again, the rental price for Kane was a 2nd, 4th, and contract dump. The 1st was contingent on re-signing. It was a best of both worlds trade for the SJS. It allowed them to try Kane out before re-signing him or committing a 1st rounder.

I don’t know why you’re acting like conditionals aren’t thrown around in trades for rentals when they are.

Zuccarello is not the superior player. Both players put up very similar PPG. Kane puts up more goals, which is a more valuable stat. Kane is much bigger and plays a much more physical game. Kane was also 5 years younger at the time of his trade, increasing his value. Kane has much more in common with a player like Kreider or Hayes than Zuccarello. Kane's value was hampered by his off ice issues, hence the conditional 1st.

.71 over the previous 5 seasons is similar to point .62? It’s almost a 10 point difference per season, then you factor in Zuccarello being a better two way player, being just as gritty, not missing nearly as many games and not having off ice issues.

Zuccarello is superior at everything except size, goal scoring and skating. Does that make Chris Kreider a better player than Paul Stastny?

Kane and Zuccarello are just not good comparables. I'd put Zuccarello somewhere in between Kane and Grabner value, with Zucc having more leadership qualities than Grabner.

You’re right, they’re not comparable at all, but Zuccarello is the better player and has proven himself to be so. Kane might be the shinier of the two toys because of his size and athleticism, but when it comes down to playing the game, Zuccarello gives you more and has produced more. Kane is the 6th leading scorer on his team this year and this is his very best year. Zuccarello has lead a contender in scoring over the previous 5 seasons.

If Kane is the barometer, which I don’t think it is, I think Zuccarello will exceed that. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I’ve been wrong before, but it doesn’t change the fact Zuccarello is clearly the better player.

 

[One Winged Angel]

The only way I see the Flames giving up our 1st is if Zucc re-signs with the Flames, so it would be a conditional 2nd (1st if re-signs). If that doesn't fly for the Rangers, I totally get it.

Understandable. I understand the position and have no problem with a team not wanting to pay that. I just think you’re looking at something comparable to what Nash brought back. Zuccarello is a younger and better player now than what Nash was last February and I think we can all agree on that.

 

[WhoTagz]

The only way I see the Flames giving up our 1st is if Zucc re-signs with the Flames, so it would be a conditional 2nd (1st if re-signs). If that doesn't fly for the Rangers, I totally get it.

yeah for sure, I just see a bidding war that could essentially raise price range

 

[CraigsList]

The Flames will not be trading a first for rental. It’s been said multiple times.

 

[Alluckks]

The ask will be a 1st+

If no team wants to give that up and all teams interested are content waiting it out right up to the deadline then he'll be dealt to some team offering a 2nd+

 

[blankall]

I don’t know why you’re acting like conditionals aren’t thrown around in trades for rentals when they are.



.71 over the previous 5 seasons is similar to point .62? It’s almost a 10 point difference per season, then you factor in Zuccarello being a better two way player, being just as gritty, not missing nearly as many games and not having off ice issues.

Zuccarello is superior at everything except size, goal scoring and skating. Does that make Chris Kreider a better player than Paul Stastny?



You’re right, they’re not comparable at all, but Zuccarello is the better player and has proven himself to be so. Kane might be the shinier of the two toys because of his size and athleticism, but when it comes down to playing the game, Zuccarello gives you more and has produced more. Kane is the 6th leading scorer on his team this year and this is his very best year. Zuccarello has lead a contender in scoring over the previous 5 seasons.

If Kane is the barometer, which I don’t think it is, I think Zuccarello will exceed that. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I’ve been wrong before, but it doesn’t change the fact Zuccarello is clearly the better player.

No you're wrong.

Kane is much bigger. I'm not sure if you've ever actually played hockey, but size is an asset in itself. There is a lot of pushing and shoving in hockey. Merely having a big player on the ice takes a physical tole on opposing players. Size is especially important during the playoffs, where the refs put the whistles away. This is why Kane has always been so sought after, despite his personality issues. His combination of size and skill is very rare.

Kane was 5 years younger.

As stated, the rental price for Kane was 2nd, 4th, and cap dum. The trade and sign price was 1st, 4th, and cap dump.

There's also the fact that Kane has actually outscored Zuccarello this year and last year. So saying Zuccarello is better now is likely incorrect. You could have referenced the time of the Kane trade to better build your argument.

 

[Lion Hound]

Zuccarello
Fast

Cgy 1st 2019
Frolik
Prout

 

[crackdown44]

No you're wrong.

Kane is much bigger. I'm not sure if you've ever actually played hockey, but size is an asset in itself. There is a lot of pushing and shoving in hockey. Merely having a big player on the ice takes a physical tole on opposing players. Size is especially important during the playoffs, where the refs put the whistles away. This is why Kane has always been so sought after, despite his personality issues. His combination of size and skill is very rare.

Kane was 5 years younger.

As stated, the rental price for Kane was 2nd, 4th, and cap dum. The trade and sign price was 1st, 4th, and cap dump.

There's also the fact that Kane has actually outscored Zuccarello this year and last year. So saying Zuccarello is better now is likely incorrect. You could have referenced the time of the Kane trade to better build your argument.

Size isn’t as important in today’s NHL as you’re making it out to be

The sign and trade price was not what you stated, there was a condition to upgrade one pick IF he re-signed. If you don’t understand how different that is from a sign and trade I’m not going to bother explaining (look at the Kyle Turris or Max Pacioretty returns)

O’regan wasn’t a cap dump, he could be buried at zero cost. Didn’t affect Buffalo’s cap at all

 

[One Winged Angel]

No you're wrong.

No, I’m not and saying I’m wrong with nothing to show otherwise isn’t an argument.

Kane is much bigger. I'm not sure if you've ever actually played hockey, but size is an asset in itself. There is a lot of pushing and shoving in hockey. Merely having a big player on the ice takes a physical tole on opposing players. Size is especially important during the playoffs, where the refs put the whistles away. This is why Kane has always been so sought after, despite his personality issues. His combination of size and skill is very rare.

I’ve been playing for 27 years, used to play travel and competitive, played against NHL’ers. I understand what size does for you. I also understand what a weight room does to you. I’m not arguing that Kane isn’t a hell of an athtlete, but Kane’s combination of size and skill is not as rare as you claim it to be. He’s very athletic at 6’2 210, but Chris Kreider is 6’3 230 and is a faster skater and stronger player who has put up comparable numbers career wise, they even come from the same draft year. Kane is no Eric Lindros. Kane is a good power forward, not a unicorn. Let’s stop overselling.

Zuccarello is an absolute brick shithouse for his size. Ever been hit by a guy that’s 5’9 200 pounds and hits like a ton of bricks? They get under you and knock you straight on your ass. Zuccarello has the heart and work ethic that a guy like Kane doesn’t have. GM’s value that, despite his size. That’s why there’s a very good chance that you’re going to see a bidding war for him that will gather a return that you wouldn’t have wanted to pay.

Kane was 5 years younger.

As stated, the rental price for Kane was 2nd, 4th, and cap dum. The trade and sign price was 1st, 4th, and cap dump.

Lmao there is no difference in pricing, they paid what they paid and that’s it, they paid for a rental and then they re-signed him after they were eliminated, which was just short of 3 months after the trade to San Jose was finalized. It wasn’t a sign and trade. Stop trying to make the trade out to be something it wasn’t.

They didn’t pay for his age. They paid the price of a rental and extended him after because he was young enough for the deal he got. No team is going to go paying prices of players with term left on their deals for a rental and the idea that you keep trying to push this is absolute lunacy.

There's also the fact that Kane has actually outscored Zuccarello this year and last year. So saying Zuccarello is better now is likely incorrect. You could have referenced the time of the Kane trade to better build your argument.

Kane has played on a better team and is the 6th leading scorer on his team with 2 defensemen in front of him. You would hope for his sake and the sake of the Sharks that he would score more than someone on a lottery team. Especially being how stacked the Sharks are this year.

But I’ll wait for it, Zuccarello playing on a tirefire team doesn’t matter but Kane doing so does.

 

[Tawnos]

The Flames will not be trading a first for rental. It’s been said multiple times.

I'm 100% sure that every February, fans of teams that eventually do trade a 1st for a rental have said the same thing. You might be right and you might be wrong, but you have no real knowledge here.

 

[One Winged Angel]

You should recall better then haha.

Care to list some examples?

 

[Flames Fanatic]

yeah for sure, I just see a bidding war that could essentially raise price range

I wouldn't be surprised either way to be honest. There's a lot of forward names rumored to be available. Depends on how a lot of those shake out.

As mentioned by the Insiders on TSN yesterday, teams are circling back to Ferland as a secondary option compared to the Duchene's, Panarin's, Stone's sort of players. I think Zuc is very much so in that second tier. When Hayes, Brassard, Dzingel, Nyqvist, Simmonds, etc are all available (and I have these guys in a tier below Zuc for what it's worth) it could potentially muddy the waters a bit if teams don't like the price on Zuc they'll circle to cheaper options and leave no takers. Really hard to see how it's gonna shake out at this point.

 

[Meeqs]

Care to list some examples?

Lets save some time, and save this message. Then when and if he is moved we can come back to it.

No offense, but I have little interest in talking to the NYR fans that have been in fantasy land this year. Fair or not there really just isn't anything in it for me.

After the deal happens, if I'm wrong on this I'll own it but I don't think its likely

 

[One Winged Angel]

Lets save some time, and save this message. Then when and if he is moved we can come back to it.

No offense, but I have little interest in talking to the NYR fans that have been in fantasy land this year. Fair or not there really just isn't anything in it for me.

After the deal happens, if I'm wrong on this I'll own it but I don't think its likely

So you’re not going to back up your claim with facts and then claim that others are in “fantasy land.”

Got it.

 

[Meeqs]

So you’re not going to back up your claim with facts and then claim that others are in “fantasy land.”

Got it.

In this case yeah. There hasn't been a point to talk with a majority of NYR fans these past few months. Too much ground to cover.

Like I said, lets just see what happens and see who ends up being right. It'll save time and work out much better.

 

[One Winged Angel]

In this case yeah. There hasn't been a point to talk with a majority of NYR fans these past few months. Too much ground to cover.

Because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean they’re being unreasonable or that there’s too much ground to cover. There are a few who are, but lumping fans together as “unreasonable” because you disagree with their point of view is a misguided and ill-informed approach as well.

Let’s talk, I’m curious to hear what you have to say. At this point, I don’t care about what ends up being right, I know that none of us have any bearing on it.

The only things I’ve cared to argue in this thread are Zuccarello’s grit, as one poster assumed that no one would catch him with his foot in his mouth, correlating size with grit and paying the price of a player with term for a rental, which are both indeed factually wrong.

So I’m curious as to a few things...

1. What is unreasonable and if so, can you show some examples? Because I’m sure you’re probably talking about Bern and some of his ridiculous ideas, which have been well documented throughout this site as part of the unreasonable clamor.

2. What top-6 rental players have gone for such little in return? Because at least then, we mught have some guidelines as to what to look for in a deal and THAT in the end, will save us a lot of time and energy. That we can agree on, no?