Zigmund "Ziggy" Palffy: Dead Puck Era's Most Underrated Player?

[Big Phil]

I don't think it's really a similar comparison. Nash has been in Columbus a decade nearly, and could have left by now if he wanted. Palffy was only on the island for four years essentially. What was he supposed to do, demand a trade in year three? If the Oilers suck again next year, should Taylor Hall demand a trade?

I think the notion that a lot of people didn't see Palffy due to him playing out in LA is supported by those Kings teams being written off as garbage by a lot of people. The Kings were in fact competitive after Palffy arrived, always either in the playoffs or just outside at a time when making the top 8 in the west was no small task. If those early 2000's Kings teams were in the eastern conference they'd have been a shoo-in to make the playoffs and Palffy might be remembered better.

No, I just see him more as a style but lack of substance type of guy. I might have said that earlier. Raw talent I will admit. But is it possible that Palffy gets really overrated on these boards? Just my observation when his name gets brought up in a thread.

 

[Hobnobs]

No, I just see him more as a style but lack of substance type of guy. I might have said that earlier. Raw talent I will admit. But is it possible that Palffy gets really overrated on these boards? Just my observation when his name gets brought up in a thread.

How is he overrated? It's not his fault that he was stuck on a terrible Islanders team if you mean his lack of playoff apperances. For example in '97 he finished with 90pts and the closest person behind him were Travis Green (!) with 64.

 

[Big Phil]

How is he overrated? It's not his fault that he was stuck on a terrible Islanders team if you mean his lack of playoff apperances. For example in '97 he finished with 90pts and the closest person behind him were Travis Green (!) with 64.

On these boards recently I have found him to be overrated. I haven't forgotten that he was rather soft and provided little outside of his skill set. Maybe not a whole lot different than how Marc Savard is viewed. I kind of turn my head to the side when there is the consideration of him as a potential HHOFer. Something I have seen on here. This is where I get the "overrated" idea.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

The idea of Palffy in the HHOF is not something I like either (same with Paul Kariya). Palffy played for the wrong teams, so barely played in the playoffs. No exposure at all. He mostly played in a dead puck era and he was made of glass.

Those things considered, no HHOF....but thats what makes him underrated (PPG+ player in almost all his seasons) and what this thread is all about.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think anyone seriously considers Palffy a HHOFer, but I think it's very reasonable to say he was on pace before really getting hit hard with injuries. That man finished top 10 in NHL scoring 4 times - that's more top 10 finishes than Heatley, Hossa, or Alfreddson, and the same number as St Louis and Iginla.

 

[Big Phil]

The idea of Palffy in the HHOF is not something I like either (same with Paul Kariya). Palffy played for the wrong teams, so barely played in the playoffs. No exposure at all. He mostly played in a dead puck era and he was made of glass.

Those things considered, no HHOF....but thats what makes him underrated (PPG+ player in almost all his seasons) and what this thread is all about.

I am not a huge fan of Paul Kariya, but if you examine each of their careers Kariya beats him. However it is almost as if some people think their career values are parallel or close to it.

I don't think anyone seriously considers Palffy a HHOFer, but I think it's very reasonable to say he was on pace before really getting hit hard with injuries. That man finished top 10 in NHL scoring 4 times - that's more top 10 finishes than Heatley, Hossa, or Alfreddson, and the same number as St Louis and Iginla.

But to look deeper, there are several seasons from each of them where they weren't top 10 scorers but still had a good season. Palffy has never come near the best of Iginla or St. Louis either.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I am not a huge fan of Paul Kariya, but if you examine each of their careers Kariya beats him. However it is almost as if some people think their career values are parallel or close to it.



But to look deeper, there are several seasons from each of them where they weren't top 10 scorers but still had a good season. Palffy has never come near the best of Iginla or St. Louis either.

Well yes, Palffy definitely falls behind in number of good seasons. That's where the whole "but for injuries" thing

 

[Frolov 6'3]

I am not a huge fan of Paul Kariya, but if you examine each of their careers Kariya beats him. However it is almost as if some people think their career values are parallel or close to it.

Because despite Kariya's talent, people know Palffy did not have a Selanne to play with. He was a PPG player and had to score 40+ goals all by himself. He's from Slovakia and not from Canada. That's why.

 

[Drake1588]

My only problem with Palffy is that for most of his career, his teams were not merely average, but terrible. Individually, he was a great offensive player, however. He didn't get the pub he deserved due to the irrelevance of his teams in far too many seasons.

I admit that I did sometimes want to see him raise his teams up from mediocrity (to be charitable) and carry them into the playoffs from time to time.

 

[RECsGuy*]

My only problem with Palffy is that for most of his career, his teams were not merely average, but terrible. Individually, he was a great offensive player, however. He didn't get the pub he deserved due to the irrelevance of his teams in far too many seasons.

I admit that I did sometimes want to see him raise his teams up from mediocrity (to be charitable) and carry them into the playoffs from time to time.

How about you list for us the goalies Palffy played in front of, along with all the HHOFers that surrounded him. Then you'll get a better idea of why his teams sucked. Gotta love when an INDIVIDUAL gets criticized for a TEAM'S shortcomings. Something tells me Teemu Selanne would be badmouthed and Pavel Bure would be hailed an unquestioned legend if we switch their Stanley Cup fortunes, and that disgusts me. Lemieux doesn't win without Jagr, Francis, Coffey, Tocchet, Trottier, Samuelsson, Murphy, Recchi, etc., Gretzky doesn't win without Fuhr, Kurri, Messier, Coffey, Anderson, etc., and so on...

 

[Big Phil]

Because despite Kariya's talent, people know Palffy did not have a Selanne to play with. He was a PPG player and had to score 40+ goals all by himself. He's from Slovakia and not from Canada. That's why.

You really think the reason he gets the bums rap is because he is Slovakian and not Canadian? A shame you never read about the praise Hossa gets around here.

Look, I have my knocks agaisnt Kariya for sure and usually I am on the other side of this issue but in this case Kariya beats Palffy in pure talent, career value and peak value as well. Neither had very good teams to play with and yes Kariya did have Selanne a big part of his career, but still mostly bad teams.

Lastly, I looked long and hard, but I did not see a single Hart vote for Palffy. Not even a 5th place vote by a homer writer. Not even during a weak season for forwards either. Now that has to tell you something there. There have been lots of players on bad teams - non playoff teams - who got their share of Hart votes still. Heck Iginla was on a team in 2002 as bad as most of Palffy's teams and nearly won the Hart.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

palffy is on pace to become his generation's lafontaine. obviously he'll never get a sniff of the HOF, but he's a guy who played his early career in the background (like lafontaine, both on long island), almost nobody noticed their first good years, then each had a brief amazing peak and tremendous chemistry with very good linemates before injuries took it away (mogilny/andreychuk, allison/palffy).

obviously, lafontaine's peak was higher. but because both guys had such short peaks, we remember them more vividly and this results in guys who were underrated for the bulk of their careers being overrated after they retire. palffy was awesome in the '02 playoffs (scored 9 of LA's 13 points, along with allison single-handedly pushed the powerhouse avs to 7 games) and his '03 season was tremendous (with allison and deadmarsh out, palffy had a bure-esque year in terms of lapping his teammates in scoring). according to my long dormant hockey blog from back then, my top five hart picks from 2003 were 1. giguere, 2. forsberg, 3. macinnis, 4. palffy, 5. thornton/naslund (note that this post was from the last day of the REGULAR season).

but when we remember lafontaine's '91-'93 or palffy '01-'03, we also look back at those long island years that flew under the radar and think, gee this guy had been good for longer than we knew. and that suddenly leads to the kind of crazy what-ifs where you ask if a healthy lafontaine could have had yzerman's career, or if palffy might have been more talented than kariya.

 

[redbull]

You really think the reason he gets the bums rap is because he is Slovakian and not Canadian? A shame you never read about the praise Hossa gets around here.

Look, I have my knocks agaisnt Kariya for sure and usually I am on the other side of this issue but in this case Kariya beats Palffy in pure talent, career value and peak value as well. Neither had very good teams to play with and yes Kariya did have Selanne a big part of his career, but still mostly bad teams.

Lastly, I looked long and hard, but I did not see a single Hart vote for Palffy. Not even a 5th place vote by a homer writer. Not even during a weak season for forwards either. Now that has to tell you something there. There have been lots of players on bad teams - non playoff teams - who got their share of Hart votes still. Heck Iginla was on a team in 2002 as bad as most of Palffy's teams and nearly won the Hart.

I was a huge Palffy fan but I agree with the Kariya point (bolded).

Palffy was extremely good offensively but I don't think he competed hard enough to be considered among the best in the game, a HOF. Palffy was a prolific scorer, great passer, could create offense despite his supporting cast, that's pretty much all there was and that's what he will be remembered for.

Ethnicity aside. Palffy didn't try much defensively, took many shifts off over 80 games. He didn't take a hit to make a play, don't think he ever took the body on someone, didn't win puck battles - he was a great perimeter player who was always dangerous in the offensive zone.

 

[Big Phil]

palffy is on pace to become his generation's lafontaine. obviously he'll never get a sniff of the HOF, but he's a guy who played his early career in the background (like lafontaine, both on long island), almost nobody noticed their first good years, then each had a brief amazing peak and tremendous chemistry with very good linemates before injuries took it away (mogilny/andreychuk, allison/palffy).

obviously, lafontaine's peak was higher. but because both guys had such short peaks, we remember them more vividly and this results in guys who were underrated for the bulk of their careers being overrated after they retire. palffy was awesome in the '02 playoffs (scored 9 of LA's 13 points, along with allison single-handedly pushed the powerhouse avs to 7 games) and his '03 season was tremendous (with allison and deadmarsh out, palffy had a bure-esque year in terms of lapping his teammates in scoring). according to my long dormant hockey blog from back then, my top five hart picks from 2003 were 1. giguere, 2. forsberg, 3. macinnis, 4. palffy, 5. thornton/naslund (note that this post was from the last day of the REGULAR season).

but when we remember lafontaine's '91-'93 or palffy '01-'03, we also look back at those long island years that flew under the radar and think, gee this guy had been good for longer than we knew. and that suddenly leads to the kind of crazy what-ifs where you ask if a healthy lafontaine could have had yzerman's career, or if palffy might have been more talented than kariya.

You really liken Palffy's prime to Lafontaine of the early 1990s?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

You really liken Palffy's prime to Lafontaine of the early 1990s?

only in terms of its brevity, injury-interruptedness, and amazing chemistry with linemates. and overratedness, i guess. but both were treats to watch.

 

[RECsGuy*]

I was a huge Palffy fan but I agree with the Kariya point (bolded).

Palffy was extremely good offensively but I don't think he competed hard enough to be considered among the best in the game, a HOF. Palffy was a prolific scorer, great passer, could create offense despite his supporting cast, that's pretty much all there was and that's what he will be remembered for.

Ethnicity aside. Palffy didn't try much defensively, took many shifts off over 80 games. He didn't take a hit to make a play, don't think he ever took the body on someone, didn't win puck battles - he was a great perimeter player who was always dangerous in the offensive zone.

Remember, fellow posters, when looking to protect yourself from criticism, include this. Makes your analysis appear impartial.

 

[redbull]

Remember, fellow posters, when looking to protect yourself from criticism, include this. Makes your analysis appear impartial.

All opinion is based on some bias, it's not my objective to appear impartial, merely stating an opinion, like everyone else here.

I stand by my comments and if they're worthy of praise or criticism then feel free to state yours.

I liked Palffy as a player, as an Islanders fan, and for all his skills/talent, he had many holes in his game. Fan or not, if you watched him play, you can't ignore that fact, regardless of supporting cast.

I believe it's wrong to suggest Palffy would have achieved more if he had better players around him, just like it's wrong to suggest that others would not have achieved without their supporting cast.

Both involve speculation.

 

[Theokritos]

Lastly, I looked long and hard, but I did not see a single Hart vote for Palffy. Not even a 5th place vote by a homer writer. Not even during a weak season for forwards either. Now that has to tell you something there.

Then you didn't look at 1996-1997.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

You really think the reason he gets the bums rap is because he is Slovakian and not Canadian? A shame you never read about the praise Hossa gets around here.

I definitely think there is bias and times have changed.

Look, I have my knocks agaisnt Kariya for sure and usually I am on the other side of this issue but in this case Kariya beats Palffy in pure talent, career value and peak value as well. Neither had very good teams to play with and yes Kariya did have Selanne a big part of his career, but still mostly bad teams.

Still imagine Palffy had a player like Selanne on his other wing. I'm not one of those fans who think player X is better than player Z because he had better linemates bla bla. But c'mon, Palffy would have had multiple 40/50 goals seasons if he had any talent to play with. Heck, he scored 40 with nobody ! It doesnt always matter if your team is any good (see Stamkos).

Palffy was still elite later in his career and Kariya was not. I can admit Pauly had a higher peak but just because we can only guess what might have happened when Palffy had any good players around him. If you cant see things like that than we can better quit.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I definitely think there is bias and times have changed.

Still imagine Palffy had a player like Selanne on his other wing. I'm not one of those fans who think player X is better than player Z because he had better linemates bla bla. But c'mon, Palffy would have had multiple 40/50 goals seasons if he had any talent to play with. Heck, he scored 40 with nobody ! It doesnt always matter if your team is any good (see Stamkos).

Palffy was still elite later in his career and Kariya was not. I can admit Pauly had a higher peak but just because we can only guess what might have happened when Palffy had any good players around him. If you cant see things like that than we can better quit.

my memories of the LAPD line were that they were amazing, had ridiculous chemistry, and were the perfect DPE line. gritty forechecking forward with a really good scoring touch that looked like he was hitting that rick tocchet second-tier power forward level, big elite playmaking center that could protect the puck, and dynamic little palffy.

but looking back at the stats, the year he played with deadmarsh and allison was actually his lowest points total and lowest PPG rate of his five years in LA. the season before and after (pre-allison and post-allison's concussion), palffy topped 85 points. the LAPD season, he didn't even hit a point per game.

which doesn't make that line any less awesome (the '02 playoffs and the scare they gave colorado-- wow). but maybe palffy was the kind of player who put up bigger points without elite linemates to play with or without elite teammates to share the prime offensive icetime with. it's not uncommon: for example, robitaille's best year was with gretzky injured half the year, and he was on a 66 goal pace before gretzky came back.

which is just to say that i don't know whether palffy's numbers were because of his poor teams/linemates, or whether they were hurt by them. but i don't think it's as easy as saying, "if palffy had selanne during his prime, he would have scored even more goals."

 

[Frolov 6'3]

No it would not be that simple, I agree. Yes that one year with Deadmarsh/Allison he was not a PPG player but still 32 goals in yet another injury riddled season of 63 games - would be over 40 goals in a full healthy season. In 2001/2002 he had 38 goals and played 73 games, in 2002/2003 he had 37 goals and played 76 games. All in the dead puck era. Palffy could have had multiple 40 goal seasons. In 2003/2004 he was leading the league in scoring and than he was injured again.

If you dont mind, I give him the benefit of the doubt.